I'm thinking about some changes in the Shell Defense Tortle feature. I prepared two approaches:
Shell Reinforcement - a progressing feature - increasing AC with character levels, for instance: gain +1 AC every 5 levels. So on the 5th level you would have 18 AC. 10th - 19 AC etc. I don't know if it's a little to much, it could be changed to every 6 levels.
Shell Defense (similar to original feature but with some alterations):
gain a +4 bonus to AC (not changed),
you have advantage on Strength and Constitution saving throws and disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws (not changed),
you are blinded while in shell, but can attack (only melee, but taking into account blindness) - this could be nullified with blindsight or other simmilar effects,
you have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks,
you are not considered prone, but you cannot move (your speed is 0 and can't increase), yet you can be moved,
withdrawing into shell and emerging from it is an action (not bonus action) and since you are not considered prone (while in shell) you don't have to stand up (you can move with full speed after emerging).
Please let me know which option is better and if it's not overpowered. I want to make a Ninja (obviously) Monk Tortle. I know that I cannot add Wisdom modifier to AC and 17 AC on the higher levels is kind of low.
In the first case Tortle could go as any Monk. In the latter as a Monk with subclass Way of the Astral Self that with blindsight that could withdraw into shell and pummel enemies with spectral arms. Yeah.
I think this is what you might be after; adding blinded is a powerful nerf, and I respect your attempt to modify the tortle to "play nicely" with the Astral Self monk:
Shell Defense. You can withdraw into your shell as an action. Until you emerge,
you gain 3/4 cover from your shell, but you gain no bonus to AC from any shield you are wielding, and all other creatures gain 3/4 cover from you
you have advantage on Strength and Constitution saving throws
The AC bonus is ridiculously powerful. Being blinded isn't really that much of a nerf considering the rest of being in the shell. My question is, why do you think the Tortle needs these improvements?
Thanks for replies. I really like the concept of fighting turtle for obvius reasons, but I guess that the original Shell Defense feat is not that useful. It's just a waste just to lay and do nothing or at best concentrate on some spell. You can also block a corridor with yourself or to stall for something, but there are better ways to do it.
Adding the possibility to attack while in shell is powerful but only if played well. Enemies normally would distance themselves from you and thats all. Only in really narrow places or if your teammates have a good crowd control this ability could be used to it's fullest.
Now it just looks to me like an untapped potential to just hide in shell. Withdrawing to shell could give smaller bonus to AC if +4 is too much, but at least it would be a more useful ability if I could do something other than just laying on the ground.
The withdrawal itself is pretty bad (unless you are being temporarily attacked by ranged attacks, in which case it is amazing to avoid taking damage, but the baseline 17 AC is incredible. Tortles don’t really need a buff.
As an alternative, so that it matches the progression they seem to be using for other new classes/races:
Natural Armor
Due to your shell and the shape of your body, you are ill-suited to wearing armor. Your shell provides ample protection, however; it gives you a base AC of 12 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency bonus. You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
That way it should generally start where it is now, and it increases whenever your PB increases.
You’re right, AC 17 isn’t fantastic at higher tiers of play. But if your PC mimics the Orange one, the Red one, or the Blue one, grab Dual Wielder anyway. Right? Maybe a pair of bracers of defense, and one of those 👆 rings or cloaks. Now you’re at AC 21.
If you want to maintain even a semblance of balance, the most aggressive you could be is a racial Feat that grants a maximum buff of +1 AC and maybe something else turtle-esk, like a 20 ft. swimming speed and maybe something similar the Wood Elf’s Mask of the Wild feature, or advantage on Dex (Stealth) checks if you move half speed or slower.
As an alternative, so that it matches the progression they seem to be using for other new classes/races:
Natural Armor
Due to your shell and the shape of your body, you are ill-suited to wearing armor. Your shell provides ample protection, however; it gives you a base AC of 12 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency bonus. You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
That way it should generally start where it is now, and it increases whenever your PB increases.
That's is incredibly over-powered. Tortle spell caster would be better than Fighters in full plate even with a moddest Con modifier. With things like Haste and the Shield spell they would just be silly. Like Flare76 said, Tortles don't need a buff.
Definitely overpowered, I agree. Was mainly throwing it out there based on the OP. Because most of my campaigns are tier 1 and 2, I think I'd honestly forgotten how high Prof Bonuses got, lol.
I also have a soft spot for monks and how chronically boned they are, in my opinion.
As a monk, not wearing armor, you can still use the monk unarmored AC calculation if it ever gets above your shell defense AC of 17. Get dex 20, 16 wis, and you're starting to eclipse shell defense now, at 18 AC. Wis to 18, climbs to 19 AC. 20 in both stats? 20 AC now. Shell defense just gives you probably an bit extra AC than a monk would otherwise have at lower levels at those lower stats.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Definitely overpowered, I agree. Was mainly throwing it out there based on the OP. Because most of my campaigns are tier 1 and 2, I think I'd honestly forgotten how high Prof Bonuses got, lol.
I also have a soft spot for monks and how chronically boned they are, in my opinion.
Monks are top tier. They aren't as fantastic if you do point buy (at least until you can get a few ASIs) due to their MADness but if you roll and get at least two 16s (after racial mods) or play a half-elf using Tasha's (put the point anywhere) then you are fine, even with point buy. If we're talking Tortle monks they are almost even worse since you get a pretty good AC to begin with. If you want an example on just how effective they can be, check out Tulok's Raphael build on youtube.
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Hey,
I'm thinking about some changes in the Shell Defense Tortle feature. I prepared two approaches:
So on the 5th level you would have 18 AC. 10th - 19 AC etc. I don't know if it's a little to much, it could be changed to every 6 levels.
Please let me know which option is better and if it's not overpowered. I want to make a
Ninja (obviously)Monk Tortle. I know that I cannot add Wisdom modifier to AC and 17 AC on the higher levels is kind of low.In the first case Tortle could go as any Monk. In the latter as a Monk with subclass Way of the Astral Self that with blindsight that could withdraw into shell and pummel enemies with spectral arms. Yeah.
I think this is what you might be after; adding blinded is a powerful nerf, and I respect your attempt to modify the tortle to "play nicely" with the Astral Self monk:
Shell Defense. You can withdraw into your shell as an action. Until you emerge,
The AC bonus is ridiculously powerful. Being blinded isn't really that much of a nerf considering the rest of being in the shell. My question is, why do you think the Tortle needs these improvements?
Thanks for replies. I really like the concept of fighting turtle for obvius reasons, but I guess that the original Shell Defense feat is not that useful. It's just a waste just to lay and do nothing or at best concentrate on some spell. You can also block a corridor with yourself or to stall for something, but there are better ways to do it.
Adding the possibility to attack while in shell is powerful but only if played well. Enemies normally would distance themselves from you and thats all. Only in really narrow places or if your teammates have a good crowd control this ability could be used to it's fullest.
Now it just looks to me like an untapped potential to just hide in shell. Withdrawing to shell could give smaller bonus to AC if +4 is too much, but at least it would be a more useful ability if I could do something other than just laying on the ground.
The withdrawal itself is pretty bad (unless you are being temporarily attacked by ranged attacks, in which case it is amazing to avoid taking damage, but the baseline 17 AC is incredible. Tortles don’t really need a buff.
As an alternative, so that it matches the progression they seem to be using for other new classes/races:
Natural Armor
Due to your shell and the shape of your body, you are ill-suited to wearing armor. Your shell provides ample protection, however; it gives you a base AC of 12 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency bonus. You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
That way it should generally start where it is now, and it increases whenever your PB increases.
12 + Con mod + PB + is way too high. With even just normal optimization that woul start as AC 17 (19 with a shield), but by 17th level with as little as a +1 shield and either a ring of protection or cloak of protection that would get up to AC 27. With a +3 shield both a ring of protection and a cloak of protection, and having read a manual of bodily health that would be AC 31.
Compare that to +3 plate, a +3 shield and both a ring of protection and a cloak of protection which maxes out at AC 28.
The reason it was set at 17 is to match half plate and splint. By design, 19 is the top AC anyone can get without one of the following:
You’re right, AC 17 isn’t fantastic at higher tiers of play. But if your PC mimics the Orange one, the Red one, or the Blue one, grab Dual Wielder anyway. Right? Maybe a pair of bracers of defense, and one of those 👆 rings or cloaks. Now you’re at AC 21.
If you want to maintain even a semblance of balance, the most aggressive you could be is a racial Feat that grants a maximum buff of +1 AC and maybe something else turtle-esk, like a 20 ft. swimming speed and maybe something similar the Wood Elf’s Mask of the Wild feature, or advantage on Dex (Stealth) checks if you move half speed or slower.
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That's is incredibly over-powered. Tortle spell caster would be better than Fighters in full plate even with a moddest Con modifier. With things like Haste and the Shield spell they would just be silly. Like Flare76 said, Tortles don't need a buff.
Definitely overpowered, I agree. Was mainly throwing it out there based on the OP. Because most of my campaigns are tier 1 and 2, I think I'd honestly forgotten how high Prof Bonuses got, lol.
I also have a soft spot for monks and how chronically boned they are, in my opinion.
As a monk, not wearing armor, you can still use the monk unarmored AC calculation if it ever gets above your shell defense AC of 17. Get dex 20, 16 wis, and you're starting to eclipse shell defense now, at 18 AC. Wis to 18, climbs to 19 AC. 20 in both stats? 20 AC now. Shell defense just gives you probably an bit extra AC than a monk would otherwise have at lower levels at those lower stats.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Monks are top tier. They aren't as fantastic if you do point buy (at least until you can get a few ASIs) due to their MADness but if you roll and get at least two 16s (after racial mods) or play a half-elf using Tasha's (put the point anywhere) then you are fine, even with point buy. If we're talking Tortle monks they are almost even worse since you get a pretty good AC to begin with. If you want an example on just how effective they can be, check out Tulok's Raphael build on youtube.