That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
Yes, I very much like the direction this is taking. Out of curiosity, why 1d4 + bonus specifically? Over, say, advantage/no scaling, scale dice rather than scaling bonus (1d6, 1d8, 1d10), or even disadvantage to opposing perception checks?
Balance. +10 to stealth is in the realm of Pass Without Trace, a 2nd level spell.
by 1d4+3 you're going 4-7 added to your stealth, which is reasonable for a cantrip.
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That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
Yes, I very much like the direction this is taking. Out of curiosity, why 1d4 + bonus specifically? Over, say, advantage/no scaling, scale dice rather than scaling bonus (1d6, 1d8, 1d10), or even disadvantage to opposing perception checks?
Balance. +10 to stealth is in the realm of Pass Without Trace, a 2nd level spell.
by 1d4+3 you're going 4-7 added to your stealth, which is reasonable for a cantrip.
Fair enough. I tend to look at averages and not maxes, so that is a very good example.
Then, couldn't the same be said in favor of adv/dadv since numerical bonuses can stack?
That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
Yes, I very much like the direction this is taking. Out of curiosity, why 1d4 + bonus specifically? Over, say, advantage/no scaling, scale dice rather than scaling bonus (1d6, 1d8, 1d10), or even disadvantage to opposing perception checks?
I went with a d4, like Cyb3rM1nd said, for balance purposes. It’s a random number which keeps it cantripy, but it’s still a relatively small boost which also keeps it cantripy (kinda like guidance, but more focused). I went with a bonus instead of advantage because advantage is useless if you already have it or if you have disadvantage. This way, the spell stays useful under any conditions, but it doesn’t blow the curve of bounded accuracy completely. I went with the flat bonuses at higher levels, again, as Cyb3rM1nd said, for balance. +4–+7 keeps it cantripy but is still a marked improvement over +1–+4. I actually did have disadvantage to other creatures’ Wis (Perception) checks in there too, but took it out. That was definitely too powerful and too complicated for a cantrip.
I went with a bonus instead of advantage because advantage is useless if you already have it or if you have disadvantage.
I think advantage would still be ok? My reasoning: It'll still help negate the armor penalty or a low dex score in a pinch, but may not be as useful to an "expert" or replace creative planning. Because right now, why would I NOT take it as an option, right?
If you want it to be advantage then change it to advantage. Of course, then it won’t scale at higher levels either.
Most experts likely wouldn’t need this spell, it’d be overkill most of the time. If it were me I would rather take a cantrip that does something my character can’t do already. Either that or something more broadly applicable. But that’s me. Changing it to advantage would certainly tone it down power-wise.
Right. I was thinking of it in more of min-maxer perspective. An expert could be really good, or REALLY good, and it would make sense to take it if they want to be that one-trick pony (makes sense to me, at least).
That whole “one-trick pony min maxer” mentality doesn’t make much sense to me. D&D isn’t an MMO, it’s a narrative game. People should make a character, not a build. 🤷♂️
That whole “one-trick pony min maxer” mentality doesn’t make much sense to me. D&D isn’t an MMO, it’s a narrative game. People should make a character, not a build. 🤷♂️
You are not wrong, but it happens, and if that is how people have fun, power to "em.
For me, even though most of my shenanigans do not get published, I still try to think of things like that when I can and seek outside help on things regarding power level and such. My group is not overly critical, so I COULD get away with quite a bit, but that is not how I like to design things (intentionally, anyway).
For the next minute you gain advantage on all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks, and you can take the Hide action even when in full view of another creature.
For the next minute you gain advantage on all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks, and you can take the Hide action even when in full view of another creature.
I really like this spell's general concept. Everyone has made good points towards trying to balance it. And this is a great example of how it could be done. I do have some concerns though.
This feels like an automatic choice for any Rogue. I would take Magic Initiate to get it every time. Advantage on stealth checks is a 9th level feature for the Thief subclass. And hiding in plain sight means guaranteed Sneak Attacks. The requirement of using an action helps mitigate that some. But the opportunities it provides for one Cantrip selection seem too good to pass up. I think I prefer a 1d4 bonus better at the moment.
What happens after a minute if you are still sneaking around? Do you roll again without advantage, or keep the earlier result until you stop stealthing?
When I first heard the idea at the start of the thread, my initial thought was of the Firbolg's Hidden Step ability. That's available at first level, but only once per short or long rest. It seems like this should provide a kind of baseline for balance.
For the next minute you gain advantage on all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks, and you can take the Hide action even when in full view of another creature.
I really like this spell's general concept. Everyone has made good points towards trying to balance it. And this is a great example of how it could be done. I do have some concerns though.
This feels like an automatic choice for any Rogue. I would take Magic Initiate to get it every time. Advantage on stealth checks is a 9th level feature for the Thief subclass. And hiding in plain sight means guaranteed Sneak Attacks. The requirement of using an action helps mitigate that some. But the opportunities it provides for one Cantrip selection seem too good to pass up. I think I prefer a 1d4 bonus better at the moment.
What happens after a minute if you are still sneaking around? Do you roll again without advantage, or keep the earlier result until you stop stealthing?
When I first heard the idea at the start of the thread, my initial thought was of the Firbolg's Hidden Step ability. That's available at first level, but only once per short or long rest. It seems like this should provide a kind of baseline for balance.
RAW, as soon as the conditions change regarding any Dex (stealth) check, a new check is called for.
The problem is that the only way to restrict the number of castings on a spell is to make it a leveled spell that requires slots, which the OP doesn’t want.
You do bring up some excellent points though. Lemme think on it some more.
As part of the same action used to cast this spell you also take the Hide action even when in full view of another creature, and for the next 2 rounds you gain advantage on all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks.
This spell’s duration increases by 1 round when you reach certain levels: 5th level (3 rounds), 11th level (4 rounds), and 17th level (5 rounds).
For the next minute you gain advantage on all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks, and you can take the Hide action even when in full view of another creature.
This feels like an automatic choice for any Rogue. I would take Magic Initiate to get it every time. Advantage on stealth checks is a 9th level feature for the Thief subclass. And hiding in plain sight means guaranteed Sneak Attacks. The requirement of using an action helps mitigate that some. But the opportunities it provides for one Cantrip selection seem too good to pass up. I think I prefer a 1d4 bonus better at the moment.
This was one of the reasons to go to advantage (to me at least). Rogues and such already get easier access to advantage, so this makes it so you can't stack the numerical bonuses and get advantage on top of that.
Hmmm. I like the last iteration a lot. I'm a big fan of letting you do the action as part of the spell. It still feels like every rogue will use this every time they try to hide though, outside of Cunning Action. At least it has limited use in combat. I like that. Sposta is a genius with homebrew.
I had one idea to throw out there. It might capture the same feel you want to accomplish without being similar to other abilities. Not sure how to implement it though. What if instead of buffing the caster, it debuffed everyone else in a sense? Something like:
'Any perception rolls against the caster are made at disadvantage' for the duration. That would improve your chances of hiding or picking a pocket without adding to your own rolls. I could see using it to distract a crowd while doing card tricks, or slipping away from someone trailing you, but not having the combat potential.
Indeed. They are one of the shining lights of the homebrew section.
Crazy idea I had and wanted to toss into the discussion...
(using v.0.2.0) Changing the cast time to bonus action?
Can still use the full effect in one round for everyone, not just rogues, but still breaks up the action economy (I sorta liked that bit as a balancing aspect, probably just me though).
Crazy idea I had and wanted to toss into the discussion...
(using v.0.2.0) Changing the cast time to bonus action?
Can still use the full effect in one round for everyone, not just rogues, but still breaks up the action economy (I sorta liked that bit as a balancing aspect, probably just me though).
The only two cantrips that can be cast as bonus actions are magic stone and shillelagh, that’s how rare bonus action cantrips are. And besides, if it was a bonus action then you could cast it and attack in the same turn, no bueno. Iz too much.
Crazy idea I had and wanted to toss into the discussion...
(using v.0.2.0) Changing the cast time to bonus action?
Can still use the full effect in one round for everyone, not just rogues, but still breaks up the action economy (I sorta liked that bit as a balancing aspect, probably just me though).
The only two cantrips that can be cast as bonus actions are magic stone and shillelagh, that’s how rare bonus action cantrips are. And besides, if it was a bonus action then you could cast it and attack in the same turn, no bueno. Iz too much.
sorry, probably wasn't clear enough. the adv bonus is bonus action, the hiding is the action.
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Balance. +10 to stealth is in the realm of Pass Without Trace, a 2nd level spell.
by 1d4+3 you're going 4-7 added to your stealth, which is reasonable for a cantrip.
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Fair enough. I tend to look at averages and not maxes, so that is a very good example.
Then, couldn't the same be said in favor of adv/dadv since numerical bonuses can stack?
I went with a d4, like Cyb3rM1nd said, for balance purposes. It’s a random number which keeps it cantripy, but it’s still a relatively small boost which also keeps it cantripy (kinda like guidance, but more focused). I went with a bonus instead of advantage because advantage is useless if you already have it or if you have disadvantage. This way, the spell stays useful under any conditions, but it doesn’t blow the curve of bounded accuracy completely. I went with the flat bonuses at higher levels, again, as Cyb3rM1nd said, for balance. +4–+7 keeps it cantripy but is still a marked improvement over +1–+4. I actually did have disadvantage to other creatures’ Wis (Perception) checks in there too, but took it out. That was definitely too powerful and too complicated for a cantrip.
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I think advantage would still be ok? My reasoning: It'll still help negate the armor penalty or a low dex score in a pinch, but may not be as useful to an "expert" or replace creative planning. Because right now, why would I NOT take it as an option, right?
If you want it to be advantage then change it to advantage. Of course, then it won’t scale at higher levels either.
Most experts likely wouldn’t need this spell, it’d be overkill most of the time. If it were me I would rather take a cantrip that does something my character can’t do already. Either that or something more broadly applicable. But that’s me. Changing it to advantage would certainly tone it down power-wise.
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Right. I was thinking of it in more of min-maxer perspective. An expert could be really good, or REALLY good, and it would make sense to take it if they want to be that one-trick pony (makes sense to me, at least).
That whole “one-trick pony min maxer” mentality doesn’t make much sense to me. D&D isn’t an MMO, it’s a narrative game. People should make a character, not a build. 🤷♂️
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You are not wrong, but it happens, and if that is how people have fun, power to "em.
For me, even though most of my shenanigans do not get published, I still try to think of things like that when I can and seek outside help on things regarding power level and such. My group is not overly critical, so I COULD get away with quite a bit, but that is not how I like to design things (intentionally, anyway).
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I really like this spell's general concept. Everyone has made good points towards trying to balance it. And this is a great example of how it could be done. I do have some concerns though.
This feels like an automatic choice for any Rogue. I would take Magic Initiate to get it every time. Advantage on stealth checks is a 9th level feature for the Thief subclass. And hiding in plain sight means guaranteed Sneak Attacks. The requirement of using an action helps mitigate that some. But the opportunities it provides for one Cantrip selection seem too good to pass up. I think I prefer a 1d4 bonus better at the moment.
What happens after a minute if you are still sneaking around? Do you roll again without advantage, or keep the earlier result until you stop stealthing?
When I first heard the idea at the start of the thread, my initial thought was of the Firbolg's Hidden Step ability. That's available at first level, but only once per short or long rest. It seems like this should provide a kind of baseline for balance.
RAW, as soon as the conditions change regarding any Dex (stealth) check, a new check is called for.
The problem is that the only way to restrict the number of castings on a spell is to make it a leveled spell that requires slots, which the OP doesn’t want.
You do bring up some excellent points though. Lemme think on it some more.
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That’s a bit better at least.
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This was one of the reasons to go to advantage (to me at least). Rogues and such already get easier access to advantage, so this makes it so you can't stack the numerical bonuses and get advantage on top of that.
Hmmm. I like the last iteration a lot. I'm a big fan of letting you do the action as part of the spell. It still feels like every rogue will use this every time they try to hide though, outside of Cunning Action. At least it has limited use in combat. I like that. Sposta is a genius with homebrew.
I had one idea to throw out there. It might capture the same feel you want to accomplish without being similar to other abilities. Not sure how to implement it though. What if instead of buffing the caster, it debuffed everyone else in a sense? Something like:
'Any perception rolls against the caster are made at disadvantage' for the duration. That would improve your chances of hiding or picking a pocket without adding to your own rolls. I could see using it to distract a crowd while doing card tricks, or slipping away from someone trailing you, but not having the combat potential.
If I were to do it as a debuff, I would still have it target “Self” and make the wording as follows:
”Creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks to spot you.”
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See, you're very good at this!
Indeed. They are one of the shining lights of the homebrew section.
Crazy idea I had and wanted to toss into the discussion...
(using v.0.2.0) Changing the cast time to bonus action?
Can still use the full effect in one round for everyone, not just rogues, but still breaks up the action economy (I sorta liked that bit as a balancing aspect, probably just me though).
The only two cantrips that can be cast as bonus actions are magic stone and shillelagh, that’s how rare bonus action cantrips are. And besides, if it was a bonus action then you could cast it and attack in the same turn, no bueno. Iz too much.
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Aww, shucks. *blushes*
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sorry, probably wasn't clear enough. the adv bonus is bonus action, the hiding is the action.