So I have a player who wants to build a 'Classless' character. I have NO idea what he is asking. From what I understand, his idea is from previous editions (I don't have books for these so I can't say for sure) but in a nutshell he wants a blank slate class that effectively spend exp/points for feats/spell slots. Now I like the idea of a classless character and buying your feats/spell slots at each level, but there is nothing in D&D 5th that supports this that I can find. I have found classes called 'classless' but they still have prebuilt class features at each level. And on top of that I have no idea how to manage a homebrew for this. Like how do you justify this classless character in D&D having spells if all sources of magic are accounted for. Sorcerer for magic within, wizard for magic learned, bard for magic learned through music, warlock for magic from a pact, cleric/paladin for magic from your deity and artificer magic through chemistry/building stuff.
the best I can come up with is at 1st level you get 2 class features of your choice. After that you can either choose a new feature/take a spell slot if you got the spellcasting feature/not take either and 'buy' more feats/spell slots at a later level. The problem that I can't figure out is the value of spell slots. How much should each level of spell slots cost? I like the idea of you have your experience that you accumulate/milestones you passe etc. and that is your reserve to use to spend on each level while your total exp/milestones doesn't change to indicate you leveling up. but I have no idea how to value feats or spell slots accordingly to build a valid character. Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
D&D doesn’t do that and it never has in any edition. Not officially anyway, I can’t say what some homebrewer might have cooked up in some corner of the internet. There are a number of other rpgs which involve point buy systems. Maybe your player is thinking of one of those.
Trying to homebrew one for D&D would be a hassle coupled with a burden, and it probably wouldn’t work right. I’d suggest talking with the player about the things they want their character to do, and then look through the options. Between multiclassing and feat selection, you can make most (not all, but almost all) character archetypes.
I don't think you really CAN build a classless character. However, if you give yourself a pretty even spread of ability scores and multiclass into several different classes, you can get pretty close. It probably won't be as good as playing a regular class, since 5e rewards specialist characters over generalists, but you can certainly make it.
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Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
If I understand the request correctly, the OP's player's wish as outlined would be impossible on DDB. That said if the player really wanted to, they could probably deconstruct the full-caster, half-caster progressions and what features are attained by what class and propose to you some sort of custom progression every level. I say the player should do this, because this is the player's vanity project not yours, and I don't think it could be done well by a player who didn't have a deep crunchy knowledge of how classes, levels, features etc really worked under the hood.
I do want to say 2E DMG had something like a build your own class system as a option, it might've been only for NPCs, or it might have been admittedly "broken" in that the writers claimed that whatever you produced would be underpowered compared to official classes. I vaguely remember playing with some tables on those pages in 2E and back then I only had access to or bought TSR official D&D products. But that was still building a class, not giving a player a blank level to pick whatever they want off some non existent option menu. I don't know if it would be worth looking at, given the differences between editions.
This would also likely fall apart because the player doesn't seem to recognize that class features are actually progressions with some internal logic, especially with spell casting.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The problem is that a lot of thought has gone into trying (emphasis on "trying") to balance out the classes and subclasses together with what magic they can and cannot access while allowing for multi-classing across the top tier of classes but not mixing of subclasses. When you allow a player to possibly just spend points taking the best of the best feats, spells and abilities for synergy and min-maxing, I think it opens the door pretty wide to abuse.
I would suggest having the player create a homebrew class and subclass to lay out exactly how they see their character developing as it levels.
Now, the player might change their mind on certain details in the future, but as DM you can measure those requests against the homebrew class and subclass as a whole and rule it in, out or negotiate on other aspects for it to happen. So tell them to not necessarily consider whatever homebrew they create to be locked in and that they can go light on details just to get the general idea down, but at least it gives you as the DM a better picture of the overall character. This also significantly helps for future DM rulings on the build. IF the character is choosing as they go, they might have a plan in place for a certain synergy of abilities that make the character OP and it could upset them if you overrule a particular ability that would have made them OP when they try to take it and they're left having chosen certain abilities that will no longer work how they hoped in the future of the build.
Classes have be around since the beginning. You have to get him to mean which book he got this idea from. And borrow it from him. Maybe he is thinking of Gurps?
Or he is lizard from the forty fourth century and D&D has changed.
D&D doesn’t do that and it never has in any edition. Not officially anyway, I can’t say what some homebrewer might have cooked up in some corner of the internet. There are a number of other rpgs which involve point buy systems. Maybe your player is thinking of one of those.
Trying to homebrew one for D&D would be a hassle coupled with a burden, and it probably wouldn’t work right. I’d suggest talking with the player about the things they want their character to do, and then look through the options. Between multiclassing and feat selection, you can make most (not all, but almost all) character archetypes.
Agreed. For the effort of trying to turn D&D into a classless system your time is far better spent learning an actual classless system. For example, GURPS, FATE, 2d20, Genesys.
We tried to do this in 1E and 2E. IT just led to endless disagreements about point buy costs.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I'd encourage asking questions around the narrative role of this "classless" character... Fighter is a class because stories about warriors have clear narrative interest--how does the warrior square their bravery with their self preservation? Do they fight for principle or greed? How will their skill with a sword bring them into conflict with other skilled combatants? How will their skill with a sword avail them when the problem is a love-plot? A classless character doesn't have that until the player can fill it in. That's not to say it can't be done; it's rather to say that it should be done first in order to know whether the character has a place in any story whatsoever...
There isnt something like that unless you look at homebrew or some random 3rd party source, as an example. What you could do, is assigning a table 1-20 and fill certain aspects of the table with a normal progression, assining a "cost" for each feature, and filling some steps with "normal progressions" (ASIs in 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th, subclass features at certain steps like 3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th for example, or other progression) - take into account that Spellcasting (full caster, half-caster and pact magic) fills many spaces in the progression, especually at high levels... - then assing costs to each class feature that matters... for example: Full casting is a 1st lvl feature that also costs features in every even number level up to 17th* (half casting starts at 2dn and has a cost of 1 feature every 4lvls when gaining a new spell level.) - 1/3rd casting costs the 3rd level subclass feature and X more subclass features in the future. (You can't combine spellcasting class features of pact magic in this class, one or the other).
- Features that gain more uses or upgrades with level up like indomitable or channel divinity, barding inspiration, sneak attack... cost an additional feature option in the levels it gains an upgrade.
- assign weapon and armor prof according to what 1st level features he has
The other aspect would be to assing "prereqs" to features (a level or a feature as a prereq... using classes as examples.). This also could mean that even if at 11th he could take any 11th level feature, he actually needs to take other features first at options open up (or instead of taking a 10lvl subclass feature from another subclass, he needs to take a 3rd level subclass feature first).
Example: level - features. 1 2 class features 2 2 class features 3 subclass feature (depends with subclass) 4th ASI 5th 2 class features 6th subclass feature 7th 2 class features 8th ASI
9th 2 class features 10th subclass 11th 1 class feature 12th ASI
13th class feature 14th subclass 15th class feature 16th ASI
17th class feature 18th class feature or sublcass 19th ASI 20 class feature or subclass
Is a lot of work, and book keeping... And as a DM you should have a say in what options are available at each level (prereqs.... for example reckless attack only if rage, or extra attack 3 only if extra attack 2 and fighting style, etc), but do as others suggest and ask the player to make the first draft of the class table, and assing what things can be done (he wants spellcasting feature, but wants to earn new spell levels in a different progression, for example... assign according to cost). If done right it can be fun for the player... if done wrong it can become either too Overpowered or Underpowered and affect the players or campaing.
Another possibly related option is looking for a homebrew port of the 3.5ed Factotum class... is not classless as is, but is't a real "jack of all trades" class.
This would be a really hard homebrew class to create... it basically requires you to deconstruct the entire game and then rebuild it in a way that makes it more customizable than the original creators intended. If you can find a homebrew like this somewhere it could be fun to try out, but it's going to be a very large and complicated project unto itself if they're asking you to invent this classless character on your own.
There's nothing official on the topic, however I wonder if the multiclassing rules could work, as in:
Start at 1st level, choosing one or two proficiencies, plus background proficiencies. You start with no class features and maybe with a d8 for hit dice.
Your only equipment is that which you are granted from your background, and you must spend gold on weapons and armour.
Whenever you level up, you gain a level in one class of your choice, as if you had multiclassed into said class.
Maybe you could be said to start at 0th level or something
This looks interesting to the topic and very easy to understand... Also, as it says, very easy to brake the game... even with prereqs...
But its just what the OP asked.
I want to clarify that I have not tried it, nor do I intend to. I just remembered that in DMsguild I have sometimes seen things like this and I looked for it. There are other documents, by the way. But I have no idea if it works or not. Personally if I want to play without classes, I play a game that doesn't have them. D&D is played with classes, it's part of the spirit of its design.
There is an interesting take in the classless character using 'The Adventurer' class. It is a class where you only get feats, but they created a set of feats with prerequisites that allow you access to spell casting and various class features from the main classes. This makes the feats into a kind of skill menu you can choose from but you have to take the lower level stuff to get to the higher level stuff. So you cant just start flinging around level 9 spells, because the spellcaster feat for that tier of play requires both level and prerequisite feats for lower level spell casting.
I found on the homebrew site GM binder.
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So I have a player who wants to build a 'Classless' character. I have NO idea what he is asking. From what I understand, his idea is from previous editions (I don't have books for these so I can't say for sure) but in a nutshell he wants a blank slate class that effectively spend exp/points for feats/spell slots. Now I like the idea of a classless character and buying your feats/spell slots at each level, but there is nothing in D&D 5th that supports this that I can find. I have found classes called 'classless' but they still have prebuilt class features at each level. And on top of that I have no idea how to manage a homebrew for this. Like how do you justify this classless character in D&D having spells if all sources of magic are accounted for. Sorcerer for magic within, wizard for magic learned, bard for magic learned through music, warlock for magic from a pact, cleric/paladin for magic from your deity and artificer magic through chemistry/building stuff.
the best I can come up with is at 1st level you get 2 class features of your choice. After that you can either choose a new feature/take a spell slot if you got the spellcasting feature/not take either and 'buy' more feats/spell slots at a later level. The problem that I can't figure out is the value of spell slots. How much should each level of spell slots cost? I like the idea of you have your experience that you accumulate/milestones you passe etc. and that is your reserve to use to spend on each level while your total exp/milestones doesn't change to indicate you leveling up. but I have no idea how to value feats or spell slots accordingly to build a valid character. Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
D&D doesn’t do that and it never has in any edition. Not officially anyway, I can’t say what some homebrewer might have cooked up in some corner of the internet.
There are a number of other rpgs which involve point buy systems. Maybe your player is thinking of one of those.
Trying to homebrew one for D&D would be a hassle coupled with a burden, and it probably wouldn’t work right. I’d suggest talking with the player about the things they want their character to do, and then look through the options. Between multiclassing and feat selection, you can make most (not all, but almost all) character archetypes.
I don't think you really CAN build a classless character. However, if you give yourself a pretty even spread of ability scores and multiclass into several different classes, you can get pretty close. It probably won't be as good as playing a regular class, since 5e rewards specialist characters over generalists, but you can certainly make it.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
If I understand the request correctly, the OP's player's wish as outlined would be impossible on DDB. That said if the player really wanted to, they could probably deconstruct the full-caster, half-caster progressions and what features are attained by what class and propose to you some sort of custom progression every level. I say the player should do this, because this is the player's vanity project not yours, and I don't think it could be done well by a player who didn't have a deep crunchy knowledge of how classes, levels, features etc really worked under the hood.
I do want to say 2E DMG had something like a build your own class system as a option, it might've been only for NPCs, or it might have been admittedly "broken" in that the writers claimed that whatever you produced would be underpowered compared to official classes. I vaguely remember playing with some tables on those pages in 2E and back then I only had access to or bought TSR official D&D products. But that was still building a class, not giving a player a blank level to pick whatever they want off some non existent option menu. I don't know if it would be worth looking at, given the differences between editions.
This would also likely fall apart because the player doesn't seem to recognize that class features are actually progressions with some internal logic, especially with spell casting.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The problem is that a lot of thought has gone into trying (emphasis on "trying") to balance out the classes and subclasses together with what magic they can and cannot access while allowing for multi-classing across the top tier of classes but not mixing of subclasses. When you allow a player to possibly just spend points taking the best of the best feats, spells and abilities for synergy and min-maxing, I think it opens the door pretty wide to abuse.
I would suggest having the player create a homebrew class and subclass to lay out exactly how they see their character developing as it levels.
Now, the player might change their mind on certain details in the future, but as DM you can measure those requests against the homebrew class and subclass as a whole and rule it in, out or negotiate on other aspects for it to happen. So tell them to not necessarily consider whatever homebrew they create to be locked in and that they can go light on details just to get the general idea down, but at least it gives you as the DM a better picture of the overall character. This also significantly helps for future DM rulings on the build. IF the character is choosing as they go, they might have a plan in place for a certain synergy of abilities that make the character OP and it could upset them if you overrule a particular ability that would have made them OP when they try to take it and they're left having chosen certain abilities that will no longer work how they hoped in the future of the build.
Classes have be around since the beginning. You have to get him to mean which book he got this idea from. And borrow it from him. Maybe he is thinking of Gurps?
Or he is lizard from the forty fourth century and D&D has changed.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Agreed. For the effort of trying to turn D&D into a classless system your time is far better spent learning an actual classless system. For example, GURPS, FATE, 2d20, Genesys.
We tried to do this in 1E and 2E. IT just led to endless disagreements about point buy costs.
It sounds like you need to give your friend an etiquette lesson, 'cause he...
has no class.
But really, this is not a thing and makes no sense. If he wants to go classless, give him a random monster statblock or something.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I'd encourage asking questions around the narrative role of this "classless" character... Fighter is a class because stories about warriors have clear narrative interest--how does the warrior square their bravery with their self preservation? Do they fight for principle or greed? How will their skill with a sword bring them into conflict with other skilled combatants? How will their skill with a sword avail them when the problem is a love-plot? A classless character doesn't have that until the player can fill it in. That's not to say it can't be done; it's rather to say that it should be done first in order to know whether the character has a place in any story whatsoever...
There are other game systems which work in a "classless" manner.
You will have to wait a few years (perhaps OneD&D?) before you will ever find "classless" characters in D&D.
There isnt something like that unless you look at homebrew or some random 3rd party source, as an example.
What you could do, is assigning a table 1-20 and fill certain aspects of the table with a normal progression, assining a "cost" for each feature, and filling some steps with "normal progressions" (ASIs in 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th, subclass features at certain steps like 3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th for example, or other progression)
- take into account that Spellcasting (full caster, half-caster and pact magic) fills many spaces in the progression, especually at high levels...
- then assing costs to each class feature that matters... for example: Full casting is a 1st lvl feature that also costs features in every even number level up to 17th* (half casting starts at 2dn and has a cost of 1 feature every 4lvls when gaining a new spell level.)
- 1/3rd casting costs the 3rd level subclass feature and X more subclass features in the future. (You can't combine spellcasting class features of pact magic in this class, one or the other).
- Features that gain more uses or upgrades with level up like indomitable or channel divinity, barding inspiration, sneak attack... cost an additional feature option in the levels it gains an upgrade.
- assign weapon and armor prof according to what 1st level features he has
The other aspect would be to assing "prereqs" to features (a level or a feature as a prereq... using classes as examples.). This also could mean that even if at 11th he could take any 11th level feature, he actually needs to take other features first at options open up (or instead of taking a 10lvl subclass feature from another subclass, he needs to take a 3rd level subclass feature first).
Example:
level - features.
1 2 class features
2 2 class features
3 subclass feature (depends with subclass)
4th ASI
5th 2 class features
6th subclass feature
7th 2 class features
8th ASI
9th 2 class features
10th subclass
11th 1 class feature
12th ASI
13th class feature
14th subclass
15th class feature
16th ASI
17th class feature
18th class feature or sublcass
19th ASI
20 class feature or subclass
Is a lot of work, and book keeping... And as a DM you should have a say in what options are available at each level (prereqs.... for example reckless attack only if rage, or extra attack 3 only if extra attack 2 and fighting style, etc), but do as others suggest and ask the player to make the first draft of the class table, and assing what things can be done
(he wants spellcasting feature, but wants to earn new spell levels in a different progression, for example... assign according to cost).
If done right it can be fun for the player... if done wrong it can become either too Overpowered or Underpowered and affect the players or campaing.
Another possibly related option is looking for a homebrew port of the 3.5ed Factotum class... is not classless as is, but is't a real "jack of all trades" class.
This would be a really hard homebrew class to create... it basically requires you to deconstruct the entire game and then rebuild it in a way that makes it more customizable than the original creators intended. If you can find a homebrew like this somewhere it could be fun to try out, but it's going to be a very large and complicated project unto itself if they're asking you to invent this classless character on your own.
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https://www.dmsguild.com/product/243333/5th-Edition-Classless---Leveless-PointBuy-System
There's nothing official on the topic, however I wonder if the multiclassing rules could work, as in:
Start at 1st level, choosing one or two proficiencies, plus background proficiencies. You start with no class features and maybe with a d8 for hit dice.
Your only equipment is that which you are granted from your background, and you must spend gold on weapons and armour.
Whenever you level up, you gain a level in one class of your choice, as if you had multiclassed into said class.
Maybe you could be said to start at 0th level or something
[REDACTED]
This looks interesting to the topic and very easy to understand...
Also, as it says, very easy to brake the game... even with prereqs...
But its just what the OP asked.
I want to clarify that I have not tried it, nor do I intend to. I just remembered that in DMsguild I have sometimes seen things like this and I looked for it. There are other documents, by the way. But I have no idea if it works or not. Personally if I want to play without classes, I play a game that doesn't have them. D&D is played with classes, it's part of the spirit of its design.
There is an interesting take in the classless character using 'The Adventurer' class. It is a class where you only get feats, but they created a set of feats with prerequisites that allow you access to spell casting and various class features from the main classes. This makes the feats into a kind of skill menu you can choose from but you have to take the lower level stuff to get to the higher level stuff. So you cant just start flinging around level 9 spells, because the spellcaster feat for that tier of play requires both level and prerequisite feats for lower level spell casting.
I found on the homebrew site GM binder.