Would something like this be a fair feat for multiclassed spellcasters?
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text Gain the following benefits: - You gain a +1 bonus to your spellcasting modifer by 1 - Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting modifiers by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score. - If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1
EDIT: Latest revision
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text Gain the following benefits: - You gain a +1 bonus to your spell attack modifier - You gain a +1 bonus to your spell save DC - If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1 - Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting abilities by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Naturally, the maximum is 20, to cap the ability score modifier at 5. Or so I presume. If this existed without that limitation, you could by level 8 have your spellcasting modifier at 5, and then take this feat to push it to 6, which I presume is off-balance from the intended design. I've never played a campaign that hit level 12, so I only assume this would be broken.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just not add that random +1 to the spellcasting modifier? The end result is the same (+5 cap) and you don't have to deal with any ability score weirdness. I can't imagine anybody taking that feat with those restrictions in place.
It may be easier to say “Increase your spellcasting ability scores by 2, to a maximum of 20.”
However, either writing of this is extremely powerful. Feats generally give out, at most, a +1 to one ability score, let alone +2 to multiple ability scores!
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
The idea is that the feat helps patch MADness by giving you a +1 to your spell save(s) without needing to raise two different ability scores. I.e. if you're a Cleric that is also a Wizard with 16 WIS and 14 INT, you take this feat and your spellcasting ability modifiers are +4 and +3 respectively, rather than +3 and +2.
Anem: the idea is interesting but I would be hesitant to grant +1 modifier outright, as that also affects a great deal of unrelated-to-spellcasting checks. If you wanted to reward multiclassing, I would instead consider modifying spells directly. Something akin to the following, as a spitball off-the-top-of-my-head idea:
"Diverse Magician: your experience with multiple schools and styles of magic have granted you insights into practical spellcasting that your more rigid fellows rarely gain, making you more effective at targeting the weaknesses in your enemies' magical defenses. You may add +1 to your spell save DC or your spell attack modifier any time a spell references either of those figures for any spellcasting class in which you have at least two class levels."
EDIT: and if your PCs get to 20 in two (or more) stats whilst also possessing this feat? I'ma say you're in Tier 3 play at the least and that it's fine for them to have a little edge. Heh, better to let the players feel more powerful and keep your abilities simple when you can rather than hedge everybody's bets with complicated ideas it's difficult to keep track of.
It may be easier to say “Increase your spellcasting ability scores by 2, to a maximum of 20.”
However, either writing of this is extremely powerful. Feats generally give out, at most, a +1 to one ability score, let alone +2 to multiple ability scores!
This would not increase an score. This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. It only increases the spellcasting modifier, not the spellcasting ability score. For example, a Paladin/Cleric could have +3 in Wisdom and +2 in Charisma. With this feat, wisdom score would stay at 3 and Charisma at 2, but your spellcasting modifier for Cleric would be 4 and Paladin would be 3. However, the Paladin's Aura of Protection would not increase, and neither would a life cleric's bonus to healing. Also, this bonus is equivalent to the +1 a single-class spellcaster would get from just increasing their spellcasting score by 2 at level 4. My goal is explicitely to only give the equivalent of this, without giving the other benefits of increasing the score as a penalty.
The idea is that the feat helps patch MADness by giving you a +1 to your spell save(s) without needing to raise two different ability scores. I.e. if you're a Cleric that is also a Wizard with 16 WIS and 14 INT, you take this feat and your spellcasting ability modifiers are +4 and +3 respectively, rather than +3 and +2.
Anem: the idea is interesting but I would be hesitant to grant +1 modifier outright, as that also affects a great deal of unrelated-to-spellcasting checks. If you wanted to reward multiclassing, I would instead consider modifying spells directly. Something akin to the following, as a spitball off-the-top-of-my-head idea:
"Diverse Magician: your experience with multiple schools and styles of magic have granted you insights into practical spellcasting that your more rigid fellows rarely gain, making you more effective at targeting the weaknesses in your enemies' magical defenses. You may add +1 to your spell save DC or your spell attack modifier any time a spell references either of those figures for any spellcasting class in which you have at least two class levels."
EDIT: and if your PCs get to 20 in two (or more) stats whilst also possessing this feat? I'ma say you're in Tier 3 play at the least and that it's fine for them to have a little edge. Heh, better to let the players feel more powerful and keep your abilities simple when you can rather than hedge everybody's bets with complicated ideas it's difficult to keep track of.
I believe I understand what you mean. Before I change it to some equivalent of your wording: Which abilities for example rely on the spellcasting modifier directly? Don't more rely on the ability score? Ie. how Wrath of the Storm for Tempest cleric relies on the Wisdom ability modifier? You would probably get this at the earliest at level 12, assuming you max out an ability score first. If you play something like Sorcerer and Bard and you took this, you would get a +6. And I am just not a big fan of allowing this, for what I presume is balanced. But I do see your point. I could change the requirement to require 2 different spellcasting modifiers, and then remove the bit about reducing ability score maximum?
Also, originally i wanted to allow a PC to take this multiple times. Get all the modifiers to +5 and then needing to stop there. With this new idea, this would definitely break something as the modifier could go up to 8.
The issue is that "spellcasting ability modifier" and, say "Wisdom modifier" or "Charisma modifier" are the same thing. 'Spellcasting ability modifier' is not a second number which is derived from a normal ability score, it is saying 'take your modifier from Ability X and use it whenever a spell calculates its junk.' So anything which increases your Spellcasting Ability Modifier would be an increase to your WIS, CHA, or INT depending on.
You could specify that this increase applies only to checks/saves which directly result from spells, but that's messy. Thus why working with Spell DC or Spell Attack scores is better - those two are separate numbers which can be calculated independently of casting ability modifier, and this feat would basically act as a Rod of the Pact Keeper for people with multiple spellcasting abilities, letting them perhaps get away with a somewhat lower actual ability score for their spells without gaining the benefit of a feat that grants two or more ASIs.
I might be thinking of the wrong thing then when I#m trying to word it. how about this instead then:
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text Gain the following benefits: - You gain a +1 bonus to your spell attack modifier - You gain a +1 bonus to your spell save DC - If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1 - Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting abilities by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score
I don't know that you need to worry about the ability score maximums and giving someone a +6. With Wand of the War Mage they could potentially have a +8 spell attack modifier.
Heck, you could just give them the wand and not worry about a feat. Or a homebrewed wand that also affects the save DC.
In some cases, reducing the ability score maximum would also permanently reduce the number of spells they could learn, which is an extra handicap...
Could you point out where spells learned is based on an ability score?
I'd also argue, with that Wand, that it is probably designed with the balance of a maximum of +5 ability modifier in mind, just like with regular +X weapons.
Every single class that prepares daily spells from a larger list of known spells uses its casting ability modifier to determine how many spells it gets to prepare. Cleric (WIS+level daily spells prepared), Druid (WIS+level daily spells prepared), Palladalladingdong (CHA+0.5level daily spells prepared), Wizard (INT+Level daily spells prepared), even the Artificer (INT+0.5level daily spells prepared).
Now, your current design seems to've accounted for that with the 'extra spell prepared', but lemme ask you - why are you as determined as you are to slash ability scores? Figuring out your reasoning behind such a massively punitive aspect of the feat would help in figuring out ways to help you nail down the design you're looking for.
Sorry, bad word choice. Not so much spells "learned", but for a Druid:
"You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Same for Cleric. The number of spells you can *prepare* is not the same as the number of slots you have available for casting. So by effectively reducing the character's ability modifier maximum, you're reducing the number of spells they can prepare.
I know that spells prepared is based on the modifier. As you mention, I made sure to compensate by increasing number of spells they can prepare. My design here is to give only the benefit of the increase to the spellcasting stuff, without giving the general benefit of increasing 2 stats by 2 points in their respective scores.
@Maestrino:
Yes, but by giving them a straight up +1 to prepared spells, you counteract the loss number of spells they can prepare. It seems to me to cancel out.
Are you maybe reading this as decreasing the current ability score? Because that is not the wording. It is decreasing the maximum, just like Barbarian capstone increases the maximum, in addition to the score.
I get that, but also by monkeying with a character's maximum ability score you're reducing their (potential maximum) saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses, you name it.
If it was me, I'd rather get the increase to spellcasting attack bonus, spell save DC, and number of spells prepared by just taking an ASI instead of the feat and not risk nerfing everything else about the character. Maybe I'm loony, but as written the feat sounds objectively worse than a straight ASI.
A straight ASI will increase the spellcasting bonus to one of your spellcasting classes, and whichever bonuses you get from this in addition (i.e. Aura of Protection). If you spend all your ASIs on increasing both spellcasting modifiers, then of course this is useless. If however you want to take other feats as well, or increase other abilities, this gives you the straight bonuses, without the side-bonuses.
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Would something like this be a fair feat for multiclassed spellcasters?
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery
Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text
Gain the following benefits:
- You gain a +1 bonus to your spellcasting modifer by 1
- Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting modifiers by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score.
- If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1
EDIT: Latest revision
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery
Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text
Gain the following benefits:
- You gain a +1 bonus to your spell attack modifier
- You gain a +1 bonus to your spell save DC
- If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1
- Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting abilities by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score
Walk me through your thought process on reducing the ability score maximum. I see that as a big disincentive to players.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Naturally, the maximum is 20, to cap the ability score modifier at 5. Or so I presume. If this existed without that limitation, you could by level 8 have your spellcasting modifier at 5, and then take this feat to push it to 6, which I presume is off-balance from the intended design. I've never played a campaign that hit level 12, so I only assume this would be broken.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just not add that random +1 to the spellcasting modifier? The end result is the same (+5 cap) and you don't have to deal with any ability score weirdness. I can't imagine anybody taking that feat with those restrictions in place.
It may be easier to say “Increase your spellcasting ability scores by 2, to a maximum of 20.”
However, either writing of this is extremely powerful. Feats generally give out, at most, a +1 to one ability score, let alone +2 to multiple ability scores!
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
The idea is that the feat helps patch MADness by giving you a +1 to your spell save(s) without needing to raise two different ability scores. I.e. if you're a Cleric that is also a Wizard with 16 WIS and 14 INT, you take this feat and your spellcasting ability modifiers are +4 and +3 respectively, rather than +3 and +2.
Anem: the idea is interesting but I would be hesitant to grant +1 modifier outright, as that also affects a great deal of unrelated-to-spellcasting checks. If you wanted to reward multiclassing, I would instead consider modifying spells directly. Something akin to the following, as a spitball off-the-top-of-my-head idea:
"Diverse Magician: your experience with multiple schools and styles of magic have granted you insights into practical spellcasting that your more rigid fellows rarely gain, making you more effective at targeting the weaknesses in your enemies' magical defenses. You may add +1 to your spell save DC or your spell attack modifier any time a spell references either of those figures for any spellcasting class in which you have at least two class levels."
EDIT: and if your PCs get to 20 in two (or more) stats whilst also possessing this feat? I'ma say you're in Tier 3 play at the least and that it's fine for them to have a little edge. Heh, better to let the players feel more powerful and keep your abilities simple when you can rather than hedge everybody's bets with complicated ideas it's difficult to keep track of.
Please do not contact or message me.
This would not increase an score. This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. It only increases the spellcasting modifier, not the spellcasting ability score. For example, a Paladin/Cleric could have +3 in Wisdom and +2 in Charisma. With this feat, wisdom score would stay at 3 and Charisma at 2, but your spellcasting modifier for Cleric would be 4 and Paladin would be 3. However, the Paladin's Aura of Protection would not increase, and neither would a life cleric's bonus to healing.
Also, this bonus is equivalent to the +1 a single-class spellcaster would get from just increasing their spellcasting score by 2 at level 4. My goal is explicitely to only give the equivalent of this, without giving the other benefits of increasing the score as a penalty.
I believe I understand what you mean. Before I change it to some equivalent of your wording: Which abilities for example rely on the spellcasting modifier directly? Don't more rely on the ability score? Ie. how Wrath of the Storm for Tempest cleric relies on the Wisdom ability modifier?
You would probably get this at the earliest at level 12, assuming you max out an ability score first. If you play something like Sorcerer and Bard and you took this, you would get a +6. And I am just not a big fan of allowing this, for what I presume is balanced. But I do see your point. I could change the requirement to require 2 different spellcasting modifiers, and then remove the bit about reducing ability score maximum?
Also, originally i wanted to allow a PC to take this multiple times. Get all the modifiers to +5 and then needing to stop there. With this new idea, this would definitely break something as the modifier could go up to 8.
The issue is that "spellcasting ability modifier" and, say "Wisdom modifier" or "Charisma modifier" are the same thing. 'Spellcasting ability modifier' is not a second number which is derived from a normal ability score, it is saying 'take your modifier from Ability X and use it whenever a spell calculates its junk.' So anything which increases your Spellcasting Ability Modifier would be an increase to your WIS, CHA, or INT depending on.
You could specify that this increase applies only to checks/saves which directly result from spells, but that's messy. Thus why working with Spell DC or Spell Attack scores is better - those two are separate numbers which can be calculated independently of casting ability modifier, and this feat would basically act as a Rod of the Pact Keeper for people with multiple spellcasting abilities, letting them perhaps get away with a somewhat lower actual ability score for their spells without gaining the benefit of a feat that grants two or more ASIs.
Please do not contact or message me.
I might be thinking of the wrong thing then when I#m trying to word it. how about this instead then:
Versatile Spellcasting Mastery
Requirement: You must have levels in at least 2 classes that grant spell slots, see text
Gain the following benefits:
- You gain a +1 bonus to your spell attack modifier
- You gain a +1 bonus to your spell save DC
- If you prepare spells, increase the number of spells you can prepare by 1
- Reduce your ability score maximum for all your spellcasting abilities by 2. You cannot take this feat, if this would reduce it below your current score
I don't know that you need to worry about the ability score maximums and giving someone a +6. With Wand of the War Mage they could potentially have a +8 spell attack modifier.
Heck, you could just give them the wand and not worry about a feat. Or a homebrewed wand that also affects the save DC.
In some cases, reducing the ability score maximum would also permanently reduce the number of spells they could learn, which is an extra handicap...
Could you point out where spells learned is based on an ability score?
I'd also argue, with that Wand, that it is probably designed with the balance of a maximum of +5 ability modifier in mind, just like with regular +X weapons.
Every single class that prepares daily spells from a larger list of known spells uses its casting ability modifier to determine how many spells it gets to prepare. Cleric (WIS+level daily spells prepared), Druid (WIS+level daily spells prepared), Palladalladingdong (CHA+0.5level daily spells prepared), Wizard (INT+Level daily spells prepared), even the Artificer (INT+0.5level daily spells prepared).
Now, your current design seems to've accounted for that with the 'extra spell prepared', but lemme ask you - why are you as determined as you are to slash ability scores? Figuring out your reasoning behind such a massively punitive aspect of the feat would help in figuring out ways to help you nail down the design you're looking for.
Please do not contact or message me.
Sorry, bad word choice. Not so much spells "learned", but for a Druid:
"You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Same for Cleric. The number of spells you can *prepare* is not the same as the number of slots you have available for casting. So by effectively reducing the character's ability modifier maximum, you're reducing the number of spells they can prepare.
@Yurei:
I know that spells prepared is based on the modifier. As you mention, I made sure to compensate by increasing number of spells they can prepare. My design here is to give only the benefit of the increase to the spellcasting stuff, without giving the general benefit of increasing 2 stats by 2 points in their respective scores.
@Maestrino:
Yes, but by giving them a straight up +1 to prepared spells, you counteract the loss number of spells they can prepare. It seems to me to cancel out.
Are you maybe reading this as decreasing the current ability score? Because that is not the wording. It is decreasing the maximum, just like Barbarian capstone increases the maximum, in addition to the score.
I get that, but also by monkeying with a character's maximum ability score you're reducing their (potential maximum) saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses, you name it.
If it was me, I'd rather get the increase to spellcasting attack bonus, spell save DC, and number of spells prepared by just taking an ASI instead of the feat and not risk nerfing everything else about the character. Maybe I'm loony, but as written the feat sounds objectively worse than a straight ASI.
A straight ASI will increase the spellcasting bonus to one of your spellcasting classes, and whichever bonuses you get from this in addition (i.e. Aura of Protection). If you spend all your ASIs on increasing both spellcasting modifiers, then of course this is useless. If however you want to take other feats as well, or increase other abilities, this gives you the straight bonuses, without the side-bonuses.