I need opinions to keep this cantrip balanced. Its for wizards, sorcerers, and maybe bards. The rider effect is that it pushes the target backwards 10 feet on a hit What im not sure about is should it have a range of 60 feet and does 1d6 force damage or a range of 30 feet and does 1d8 force damage? Or is the rider too ballin and it should be 1d6 and 30 feet?
Since you are copy the Warlock blast with a evocation combinde I would say the damage should be lowed to a D4. This keep it in line with the Bards Mockery. Also if you are coping the Eldrics blast rember it will get multiple blast at later level and would ether push back multiple people or the same one multiple times.
Im not copying EB though... EB doesn't push the target back without an invocation. A bards Vicious Mockery does really work for comparisons since its flavored specifically for bards. My cantrip is based more on Ray of Frost than anything else. The flavor of the spell is meant as battlefield control but as an alternative to RoF's slowing rider. Plus I've always felt that wizards should have some form of offensive force cantrip and something that repulses/pushes the enemy away.
The description seems less like Eldritch Blast and more like a reverse Thorn Whip. I think that Pushing is a little more valuable than pulling (since it's making it more difficult for the enemy to attack you). So Thorn Whip has a range of 30ft and deals a d6 piercing Damage... so I think it would be fair to have this spell deal a d4, since the push is the main point, and damage is kind of a bonus. Plus Force is a very rarely resisted damage type, so that adds more value.
30 feet. It's a pretty robust cantrip already at that distance. If range is a bigger issue to you though I think decreasing the damage die to a d4 would balance it.
no, I originally wanted it to be 30 foot, someone I know suggested making it 60. to me it the kinda of spell that is cast when an enemy is getting close and you need to add more distance so you can effectively get away.
I think the d4 would be fine, while keeping it Force damage. Because it will make it more useable. If you are fighting a creature immune to bludgeoning then its not gonna have any use even if dealing more damage usually.
Talking to friends and really analyzing cantrips and the riders, it really seems like pushing something back 10 feet is less powerful than slowing somethings speed 10 feet. When pushing something back 10 feet its next turn it only has lost a potential of 10 feet from being where it could be that turn. The other hand, slowing its movement 10 feet has a potential loss of 20 feet its next turn if it takes a movement and dash action. Yes force damage is the best type, rarely resisted and never immune but even comments from JCrawford about changing damage types of spells doesn't really break a spell so they real question is would a d6 or even d8 force or "thunder" (sonic) damage for this spell unbalance it? What do you guys think?
The pushback is definitely more powerful than the slow. That 20 foot potential loss only comes into play if the creature actually spends its action to dash. Forcing movement, on the other hand, can be immensely powerful if there’s something interesting for the creature to be pushed into or off of.
I’m sure Thorn Whip has been mentioned; it’s a good benchmark. Pushing is a bit better than pulling, but not so much better that I think it merits a reduction in damage die. I don’t think magical piercing damage is resisted much more frequently than force damage, so that comes up relatively even as well.
In summary, the secondary effect is a bit better than Thorn Whip’s, damage type roughly the same, I think a d6 is a good damage die.
If you want it to reduce movement speed instead, go ahead and make it a d8. You’re basically looking at Ray of Frost then. Force damage is certainly better than cold damage, but I really don’t think the difference warrants a smaller die. (Forced movement versus slow DEFINITELY warrants a smaller die).
Hmm. I gotcha. The thematic point is to add a ranged spell attack with force damage and forced movement to go with other "psionic" spells. I love the new UA subclass but I hate that there is just a save damage cantrip that is thematic for them.
Ray of frost is great and has a great rider, the only other damage type I can see that makes sense for that rider would be lightning damage because... taser. lol
First: Realistically if I drop the forced movement and just kept the force damage at d8 and 60 foot range that it would be a well balanced spell?
Second: on the Psionics theme, what about importing the idea of telekinetic projective form PF? basically what I was thinking was 120ft range, d8 piercing, magical and it consumes/uses a bolt, arrow, dart or dagger(option of one of them not restricted) as a component that can't be recovered? The range could come down to 60ft if that helps balance. The only other question mark is scaling, should it add multiple attacks/projectiles OR just increase the damage of a single projectile?
This would make 2 separate cantrips I'm asking about.
First: Realistically if I drop the forced movement and just kept the force damage at d8 and 60 foot range that it would be a well balanced spell?
Second: on the Psionics theme, what about importing the idea of telekinetic projective form PF? basically what I was thinking was 120ft range, d8 piercing, magical and it consumes/uses a bolt, arrow, dart or dagger(option of one of them not restricted) as a component that can't be recovered? The range could come down to 60ft if that helps balance. The only other question mark is scaling, should it add multiple attacks/projectiles OR just increase the damage of a single projectile?
This would make 2 separate cantrips I'm asking about.
If you drop the push, a d8 is fine, but it becomes a really unattractive cantrip at that point. It's just Fire Bolt with a shorter range and smaller damage die to account for the relative prevalence of resistance. That's fine, but boring. The push seems to be where the telekinesis flavor is.
Regarding the second idea: I think that sounds like a really neat cantrip actually. Magical d8 piercing sounds fair. For scaling I'd let the caster shoot additional projectiles rather than increasing single-target damage. Since it consumes its ammunition, I think it would actually be reasonable to increase the damage die to a d10. I realize that it's maybe a bit incongruous to praise "eldritch blast but a different damage type" after just calling "fire bolt but a different damage type" boring, but the thematic flavor of telekinetically launching actual projectiles is really strong.
It sounds like Evocation to me. Please post the link when you finally finish it. I’ve been trying to tweak a similar spell for a couple of months and it hasn’t been working. I would like to add yours to my collection when you’re done writing it.
I need opinions to keep this cantrip balanced. Its for wizards, sorcerers, and maybe bards. The rider effect is that it pushes the target backwards 10 feet on a hit What im not sure about is should it have a range of 60 feet and does 1d6 force damage or a range of 30 feet and does 1d8 force damage? Or is the rider too ballin and it should be 1d6 and 30 feet?
Since you are copy the Warlock blast with a evocation combinde I would say the damage should be lowed to a D4. This keep it in line with the Bards Mockery. Also if you are coping the Eldrics blast rember it will get multiple blast at later level and would ether push back multiple people or the same one multiple times.
I spell Goodly.
Im not copying EB though... EB doesn't push the target back without an invocation. A bards Vicious Mockery does really work for comparisons since its flavored specifically for bards. My cantrip is based more on Ray of Frost than anything else. The flavor of the spell is meant as battlefield control but as an alternative to RoF's slowing rider. Plus I've always felt that wizards should have some form of offensive force cantrip and something that repulses/pushes the enemy away.
The description seems less like Eldritch Blast and more like a reverse Thorn Whip. I think that Pushing is a little more valuable than pulling (since it's making it more difficult for the enemy to attack you). So Thorn Whip has a range of 30ft and deals a d6 piercing Damage... so I think it would be fair to have this spell deal a d4, since the push is the main point, and damage is kind of a bonus. Plus Force is a very rarely resisted damage type, so that adds more value.
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gotcha. I was going on the lines Ray of Frost but reducing either the damage or range to balance it.
Im not set on force damage for it either, it just made the most sense considering. I had also considered bludgeoning damage. Thought on that?
I think it would be fair to increase the damage to a d6 if you change it to bludgeoning damage.
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At 30 or 60 feet?
30 feet. It's a pretty robust cantrip already at that distance. If range is a bigger issue to you though I think decreasing the damage die to a d4 would balance it.
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no, I originally wanted it to be 30 foot, someone I know suggested making it 60. to me it the kinda of spell that is cast when an enemy is getting close and you need to add more distance so you can effectively get away.
I think the d4 would be fine, while keeping it Force damage. Because it will make it more useable. If you are fighting a creature immune to bludgeoning then its not gonna have any use even if dealing more damage usually.
Talking to friends and really analyzing cantrips and the riders, it really seems like pushing something back 10 feet is less powerful than slowing somethings speed 10 feet. When pushing something back 10 feet its next turn it only has lost a potential of 10 feet from being where it could be that turn. The other hand, slowing its movement 10 feet has a potential loss of 20 feet its next turn if it takes a movement and dash action. Yes force damage is the best type, rarely resisted and never immune but even comments from JCrawford about changing damage types of spells doesn't really break a spell so they real question is would a d6 or even d8 force or "thunder" (sonic) damage for this spell unbalance it? What do you guys think?
The pushback is definitely more powerful than the slow. That 20 foot potential loss only comes into play if the creature actually spends its action to dash. Forcing movement, on the other hand, can be immensely powerful if there’s something interesting for the creature to be pushed into or off of.
I’m sure Thorn Whip has been mentioned; it’s a good benchmark. Pushing is a bit better than pulling, but not so much better that I think it merits a reduction in damage die. I don’t think magical piercing damage is resisted much more frequently than force damage, so that comes up relatively even as well.
In summary, the secondary effect is a bit better than Thorn Whip’s, damage type roughly the same, I think a d6 is a good damage die.
If you want it to reduce movement speed instead, go ahead and make it a d8. You’re basically looking at Ray of Frost then. Force damage is certainly better than cold damage, but I really don’t think the difference warrants a smaller die. (Forced movement versus slow DEFINITELY warrants a smaller die).
Hmm. I gotcha. The thematic point is to add a ranged spell attack with force damage and forced movement to go with other "psionic" spells. I love the new UA subclass but I hate that there is just a save damage cantrip that is thematic for them.
Ray of frost is great and has a great rider, the only other damage type I can see that makes sense for that rider would be lightning damage because... taser. lol
2 things:
First: Realistically if I drop the forced movement and just kept the force damage at d8 and 60 foot range that it would be a well balanced spell?
Second: on the Psionics theme, what about importing the idea of telekinetic projective form PF? basically what I was thinking was 120ft range, d8 piercing, magical and it consumes/uses a bolt, arrow, dart or dagger(option of one of them not restricted) as a component that can't be recovered? The range could come down to 60ft if that helps balance. The only other question mark is scaling, should it add multiple attacks/projectiles OR just increase the damage of a single projectile?
This would make 2 separate cantrips I'm asking about.
You mean like this, only with an attack roll instead of a save?
PS- I went with a save on mine because then the caster can still use it at point-blank range without disadvantage.
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If you drop the push, a d8 is fine, but it becomes a really unattractive cantrip at that point. It's just Fire Bolt with a shorter range and smaller damage die to account for the relative prevalence of resistance. That's fine, but boring. The push seems to be where the telekinesis flavor is.
Regarding the second idea: I think that sounds like a really neat cantrip actually. Magical d8 piercing sounds fair. For scaling I'd let the caster shoot additional projectiles rather than increasing single-target damage. Since it consumes its ammunition, I think it would actually be reasonable to increase the damage die to a d10. I realize that it's maybe a bit incongruous to praise "eldritch blast but a different damage type" after just calling "fire bolt but a different damage type" boring, but the thematic flavor of telekinetically launching actual projectiles is really strong.
What school should it be? Enchantment, Transmutation or Evocation?
It sounds like Evocation to me. Please post the link when you finally finish it. I’ve been trying to tweak a similar spell for a couple of months and it hasn’t been working. I would like to add yours to my collection when you’re done writing it.
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