Can be considered a Katana/Longsword finesse or Rapier finesse?
Rapiers are finesse and should remain so. A rapier is a thin and light blade that is designed to require less strength to use, focusing more on accuracy. The thin sharp blade is ideal for piercing allowing you to very easily pierce flesh without much strength - in fact, you actually shouldn't use too much strength, as if you go in too strong you decrease accuracy and attacking strongly but at a wrong angle can easily damage the blade.
Katanas are a type of longsword so would be the same stats as one. Longsword should not be finesse - they're too big and heavy. Simply swinging a longsword with precision won't do much (finesse are about precision, not speed and why they do piercing not slashing *). To get the speed, momentum and force needed to use the sword properly requires some strength in your muscles.
* Yes, scimitars are slashing and finesse, but this is because the designers goofed. Scimitars should not be finesse at all as they're similar to longswords - too heavy and big for finesse. Also finesse should always be piercing as it's accuracy, the speed of a weapon strike is more about your strength - dex is more about accuracy (hence it's use in ranged weapons like crossbows) and accuracy-based attacks are about piercing. Being accurate with a slashing weapon will do jack if you lack the strength behind it. Scimitars are curved blades, they are designed to slash, which makes them strength weapons. That plus their longer blade and greater weight means a scimitar should not be finesse - they are so purely due to designer ignorance.
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Can be considered a Katana/Longsword finesse or Rapier finesse?
Rapiers are finesse and should remain so. A rapier is a thin and light blade that is designed to require less strength to use, focusing more on accuracy. The thin sharp blade is ideal for piercing allowing you to very easily pierce flesh without much strength - in fact, you actually shouldn't use too much strength, as if you go in too strong you decrease accuracy and attacking strongly but at a wrong angle can easily damage the blade.
Katanas are a type of longsword so would be the same stats as one. Longsword should not be finesse - they're too big and heavy. Simply swinging a longsword with precision won't do much (finesse are about precision, not speed and why they do piercing not slashing *). To get the speed, momentum and force needed to use the sword properly requires some strength in your muscles.
* Yes, scimitars are slashing and finesse, but this is because the designers goofed. Scimitars should not be finesse at all as they're similar to longswords - too heavy and big for finesse. Also finesse should always be piercing as it's accuracy, the speed of a weapon strike is more about your strength - dex is more about accuracy (hence it's use in ranged weapons like crossbows) and accuracy-based attacks are about piercing. Being accurate with a slashing weapon will do jack if you lack the strength behind it. Scimitars are curved blades, they are designed to slash, which makes them strength weapons. That plus their longer blade and greater weight means a scimitar should not be finesse - they are so purely due to designer ignorance.
I think you might be viewing the idea of a D&D “Scimitar” a bit too narrowly as that weapon is also meant to encompass a falchion/messer which rely heavily on edge alignment and therefore would require a degree of hand-eye coordination which is why Dex is important (ergo finesse). A Longsword or Katana (or an actual historical Scimitar) has more weight behind the swing so power (Str) is more important.
I agree with you that a heavy slashing weapon would most certainly use Str. But for lighter slashing weapons that require those quick realignments mid swing (like a falchion/messer/saber) are okay with Dex. However, if they made non-finesse versions of the same weapons nobody would use them as they would be redundant. (It’s the same reason we don’t have an Arming Sword as it would be a Rapier without finesse, or a Longsword without versatile so they would just take up space in the book and never get used.)
Can be considered a Katana/Longsword finesse or Rapier finesse?
Rapiers are finesse and should remain so. A rapier is a thin and light blade that is designed to require less strength to use, focusing more on accuracy. The thin sharp blade is ideal for piercing allowing you to very easily pierce flesh without much strength - in fact, you actually shouldn't use too much strength, as if you go in too strong you decrease accuracy and attacking strongly but at a wrong angle can easily damage the blade.
Katanas are a type of longsword so would be the same stats as one. Longsword should not be finesse - they're too big and heavy. Simply swinging a longsword with precision won't do much (finesse are about precision, not speed and why they do piercing not slashing *). To get the speed, momentum and force needed to use the sword properly requires some strength in your muscles.
* Yes, scimitars are slashing and finesse, but this is because the designers goofed. Scimitars should not be finesse at all as they're similar to longswords - too heavy and big for finesse. Also finesse should always be piercing as it's accuracy, the speed of a weapon strike is more about your strength - dex is more about accuracy (hence it's use in ranged weapons like crossbows) and accuracy-based attacks are about piercing. Being accurate with a slashing weapon will do jack if you lack the strength behind it. Scimitars are curved blades, they are designed to slash, which makes them strength weapons. That plus their longer blade and greater weight means a scimitar should not be finesse - they are so purely due to designer ignorance.
I think you might be viewing the idea of a D&D “Scimitar” a bit too narrowly as that weapon is also meant to encompass a falchion/messer which rely heavily on edge alignment and therefore would require a degree of hand-eye coordination which is why Dex is important (ergo finesse). A Longsword or Katana (or an actual historical Scimitar) has more weight behind the swing so power (Str) is more important.
I agree with you that a heavy slashing weapon would most certainly use Str. But for lighter slashing weapons that require those quick realignments mid swing (like a falchion/messer/saber) are okay with Dex. However, if they made non-finesse versions of the same weapons nobody would use them as they would be redundant. (It’s the same reason we don’t have an Arming Sword as it would be a Rapier without finesse, or a Longsword without versatile so they would just take up space in the book and never get used.)
Let's be real, scimitars are only finesse because of a certain drow ranger in popular stories...
And no, katanas cannot be finesse. They count as longswords. If you want to have a finesse katana for your anime fantasy, reskin yourself a scimitar and have at it. But no, your "ninja" does not get to sneak attack with a two handed d10 weapon.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Can be considered a Katana/Longsword finesse or Rapier finesse?
Rapiers are finesse and should remain so. A rapier is a thin and light blade that is designed to require less strength to use, focusing more on accuracy. The thin sharp blade is ideal for piercing allowing you to very easily pierce flesh without much strength - in fact, you actually shouldn't use too much strength, as if you go in too strong you decrease accuracy and attacking strongly but at a wrong angle can easily damage the blade.
Katanas are a type of longsword so would be the same stats as one. Longsword should not be finesse - they're too big and heavy. Simply swinging a longsword with precision won't do much (finesse are about precision, not speed and why they do piercing not slashing *). To get the speed, momentum and force needed to use the sword properly requires some strength in your muscles.
* Yes, scimitars are slashing and finesse, but this is because the designers goofed. Scimitars should not be finesse at all as they're similar to longswords - too heavy and big for finesse. Also finesse should always be piercing as it's accuracy, the speed of a weapon strike is more about your strength - dex is more about accuracy (hence it's use in ranged weapons like crossbows) and accuracy-based attacks are about piercing. Being accurate with a slashing weapon will do jack if you lack the strength behind it. Scimitars are curved blades, they are designed to slash, which makes them strength weapons. That plus their longer blade and greater weight means a scimitar should not be finesse - they are so purely due to designer ignorance.
I think you might be viewing the idea of a D&D “Scimitar” a bit too narrowly as that weapon is also meant to encompass a falchion/messer which rely heavily on edge alignment and therefore would require a degree of hand-eye coordination which is why Dex is important (ergo finesse). A Longsword or Katana (or an actual historical Scimitar) has more weight behind the swing so power (Str) is more important.
I agree with you that a heavy slashing weapon would most certainly use Str. But for lighter slashing weapons that require those quick realignments mid swing (like a falchion/messer/saber) are okay with Dex. However, if they made non-finesse versions of the same weapons nobody would use them as they would be redundant. (It’s the same reason we don’t have an Arming Sword as it would be a Rapier without finesse, or a Longsword without versatile so they would just take up space in the book and never get used.)
Let's be real, scimitars are only finesse because of a certain drow ranger in popular stories...
And no, katanas cannot be finesse. They count as longswords. If you want to have a finesse katana for your anime fantasy, reskin yourself a scimitar and have at it. But no, your "ninja" does not get to sneak attack with a two handed d10 weapon.
I use a bog-standard Longsword as a katana, so don’t snip at me.
I didn't intend to snip at you, sorry if you took it that way.
The second part was intended for the OP. I get butthurt every time I see someone trying to min-max better finesse weapons as if dex was not already the master combat stat. I'm pretty sure either the DMG or PHB even calls out katanas as being a kind of longsword, but there are constantly people trying to get finesse out of it somehow.
EDIT: Looked it up for the OP. Page 41 of the DMG:
An alternative name changes none of the weapon’s properties as they are described in the Player’s Handbook.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I didn't intend to snip at you, sorry if you took it that way.
The second part was intended for the OP. I get butthurt every time I see someone trying to min-max better finesse weapons as if dex was not already the master combat stat. I'm pretty sure either the DMG or PHB even calls out katanas as being a kind of longsword, but there are constantly people trying to get finesse out of it somehow.
EDIT: Looked it up for the OP. Page 41 of the DMG:
An alternative name changes none of the weapon’s properties as they are described in the Player’s Handbook.
So reading through this the one problem I have is that everyone assumes Katanas are one thing. They are not. They vary in size, there are great weapon style giant two handed katanas for battlefield use only, standard longsword style katanas for samurai policing, and lighter ninja stealth focused katanas. The Scimitar as a lighter form of a katana is problematic because Katanas do piercing damage and can be welded two handed. I personally for a rogue, would think 1d8 slashing, 1d6 Piercing finesse. It's not Op a rapier does 1d8 piercing and a Scimitar does 1d6 Slashing but really a ninja Katana is just a bit more versatile than both at the same weight and it's design is better for slashing but can still pierce due to the tip design.
So reading through this the one problem I have is that everyone assumes Katanas are one thing. They are not. They vary in size, there are great weapon style giant two handed katanas for battlefield use only, standard longsword style katanas for samurai policing, and lighter ninja stealth focused katanas. The Scimitar as a lighter form of a katana is problematic because Katanas do piercing damage and can be welded two handed. I personally for a rogue, would think 1d8 slashing, 1d6 Piercing finesse. It's not Op a rapier does 1d8 piercing and a Scimitar does 1d6 Slashing but really a ninja Katana is just a bit more versatile than both at the same weight and it's design is better for slashing but can still pierce due to the tip design.
This literally goes against everything I have read about katanas.
You seem to be confusing wakizashi and tanto as different katanas. They are not. The katana, a long sword, is designed for general outdoor combat and is best wielded with both hands. The wakizashi is a short sword, serving as a more "indoor" sword. The tanto is basically a dagger as a backup or when in very tight spaces.
All 3 are curved blades for slashing. The katana especially as you need to really understand how to slash this blade.
The "ninja" katana you are referring to is a chokuto, a straight-blade short-sword designed for piercing/stabbing. Although very commonly thought of as the "ninja" blade - there is no actual historical evidence they were used by ninjas.
The katana is a specific sword design. There are similar ones and are considered to be in the same "family" of swords but they are not, technically katana.
All katana, even if you want to broaden it more generically, are long swords and all are curved for slashing. These are specifically what makes a katana, a katana.
The D&D "longsword" is a close fit.
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"The ninjato sword was the favored weapon carried by Shinobi (ninja) in feudal Japan. In contrast to the curved katana, this style of blade is characterized as being a short sword with a completely straight blade. In the legends, ninjatos were used by ninja as an additional stealth weapon."- https://www.swordsofnorthshire.com/ninjato
In these articles the Odachi is compared to a longsword or a claymore but really for DnD purposes it's more like a great sword.
The traditional Samurai sword used for policing the streets was really more like a longsword.
The Ninjato is described to be more like a short sword but really it's more like a Scimitar
The Wakazashi is really the short sword of the group
And the Tanto is a dagger essentially or a knife.
Katana can also be used as a generic term for all three main swords. a lot like pitbull for various bully breads. Yea there is APBT. Yea there is a KATANA. but this is DnD not a history lesson and the point is these things exist and there are reasonable categories for them and it would be fun to exist in DnD if you are going to have samurai builds and Shadow builds.
The word “katana” was originally a Chinese word “kun'yomi” that literally translates as “single-edged blade,” so saying that “katana come in many shapes, lengths, and sizes” is absolutely true, and no less accurate than saying “swords come in many shapes, lengths, and sizes.” However, while it originally referred to single-edged swords of any length, that is not what it means today, nor has it for around 1,300 years since the Japanese added it to their vocabulary. Since then a “Katana” has specifically been defined as a single edged, hand-and-a-half (versatile) sword of with a blade length of around 61 cm that was worn by Samurai in the 15th century. Another, more generic word for swords of that size is “Daitō,” which directly translates as “Longsword.” Yes, Katana did also vary somewhat from blade to blade, but so did European Longswords, but they are still comparable.👇
Those large, “great weapon style giant two-handed style” swords you referred to were specifically called “Ōdachi / Nodachi” which translate as “Greatsword” and “Field Sword” respectively. Ōdachi (Greatsword) referred to its massive size, and Nodachi (Field Sword) referred to its role on the “battlefield” as you pointed out.
A “Ninja” (officially “Shinobi”) was a spy and saboteur, a feudal Japanese guerrilla basically. They did use Katana, the same Longsword equivalent Katana as Samurai used. That “lighter ninja stealth focused” sword you referred to are called “Ninjatō” (or occasionally as “Shinobigatana”) are most likely a modern invention of the 20th century and not historically accurate at all. However, they would fall under the umbrella category of “shortswords,*” If Shinobi did carry a smaller, shorter blade even remotely similar to that, it was likely either a “Tantō” or a “Wakizashi,” the same shorter swords that Samurai paired with their Katana as part of their Daishō. The Tantō would either count as a shortsword or a Dagger in D&D, depending on whether one considers its length or its use respectively. Wakizashi would fall under the umbrella category of “scimitars.*”
*Historically there have never been specific swords known as either a “Shortsword” or a Scimitar specifically. The term “short sword” is just a descriptive term, and includes everything from the various Roman Gladii, to the Spada da Lato and anything else that was shorter than a “long sword”. The term “scimitar” typically referred to curved eastern blades, but in D&D it also includes Falchions, Messers, Backswords, and Cutlasses among others.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on a NInjato being a Short sword but the Wakazashi being a scimitar class. Real scimitars or rather the middle eastern and North African swords Scimitars are based on are way bigger than Wakizashis , and Ninjato's are always longer than Wakazashis (the quality was more functional than art form, and very easily replaceable)but just as light or lighter. Wakazashis are Longer than daggers and Tantos as a short sword is pushing it a bit, but I know they can vary. I do appreciate your knowledge of swords, but this also doesn't resolve the issue of how this plays out in DnD. Only how you see it vs how I see it.
There is a pic there of a supposed ninja sword there with a strait edge and it is definitely longer than your average wakizashi, though not by much. It is supposed to be legit but so are all those Alien Museums in the U.S. It's an intermediary between the standard katana and the standard Wakizashi length wise. Which is why I say in DnD comparison, it is more accurate to compare it to a scimitar (real North African Swords are longer than what in DnD is a Short Sword). Short swords are 1d6 so Short sword is fine stat wise for a ninja-to, but it doesn't have a two handed option and a ninja-to (I know that it is a questionable existence, but that does not matter, it still exists and it's cool, also, Dr. Masaki Hatsumi says it's real and he wins) has a longer hilt for two handed use. I would like to see all these weapons added to DnD. in some more accurate and unique ways instead of subbing European weapons that don't quite have the same Nuances.
Thank you, you as well. it’s always nice to be able to discuss something interesting with someone who also has a passion for and knowledge about a shared interest. I love learning everything I can about the arms race from the Bronze Age through the Renaissance. I actually developed the passion because of the very, very loooonnng lists of weapons back in 2e. Lol I wanted to know what everything on the list was, and the more I learned the more I realized how much wasn’t on the list. It blew my mind. Part of me is a little sad that some kids today won’t get just as interested in history because of D&D. But on the other hand, I know that a much less bloated list is a lot better for the game in a lot of ways. I do think that they made things a little too much this time. I wish the top end was 4d4 & 2d8 instead of 2d6 & 1d12. Then the middle could spread out so that Strength builds could have a bit more appeal. Plus, an Arming sword could slide in at 1d10 to give the Rapier a run for its money. 😉
But anyway, back to the topic at hand:
Keep in mind that the specific blade length is less relevant when it comes to how things fit into D&D because all of the weapons represent general umbrella categories more than specific, exact things. So for swords, generally speaking anything with a blade up to 12 inches long is a dagger, anything that could be used with either one of two hands and has a blade 2 feet or longer is a longsword, anything in between is a shortsword or scimitar, anything with a blade around 2 ft long but strictly one-handed is a rapier, anything that requires two hands is a greatsword.
I said a Tantō could be either a dagger or Shortsword because it is technically a sword from a design/construction standpoint, but it was basically a dagger in size and use.🤷♂️
If the Ninjatō is too long to be a dagger, but not big enough to be a rapier or Longsword. Then it’s a Shortsword. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, and in this case it’s Japanesey. 😉 But if the hand-and-a-half grip is a sticking point for you, make it a versatileShortsword, then it’ll be 1d6/1d8 with finesse. -fin- Ya?
Thank you, you as well. it’s always nice to be able to discuss something interesting with someone who also has a passion for and knowledge about a shared interest. I love learning everything I can about the arms race from the Bronze Age through the Renaissance. I actually developed the passion because of the very, very loooonnng lists of weapons back in 2e. Lol I wanted to know what everything on the list was, and the more I learned the more I realized how much wasn’t on the list. It blew my mind. Part of me is a little sad that some kids today won’t get just as interested in history because of D&D. But on the other hand, I know that a much less bloated list is a lot better for the game in a lot of ways. I do think that they made things a little too much this time. I wish the top end was 4d4 & 2d8 instead of 2d6 & 1d12. Then the middle could spread out so that Strength builds could have a bit more appeal. Plus, an Arming sword could slide in at 1d10 to give the Rapier a run for its money. 😉
But anyway, back to the topic at hand:
Keep in mind that the specific blade length is less relevant when it comes to how things fit into D&D because all of the weapons represent general umbrella categories more than specific, exact things. So for swords, generally speaking anything with a blade up to 12 inches long is a dagger, anything that could be used with either one of two hands and has a blade 2 feet or longer is a longsword, anything in between is a shortsword or scimitar, anything with a blade around 2 ft long but strictly one-handed is a rapier, anything that requires two hands is a greatsword.
I said a Tantō could be either a dagger or Shortsword because it is technically a sword from a design/construction standpoint, but it was basically a dagger in size and use.🤷♂️
If the Ninjatō is too long to be a dagger, but not big enough to be a rapier or Longsword. Then it’s a Shortsword. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, and in this case it’s Japanesey. 😉 But if the hand-and-a-half grip is a sticking point for you, make it a versatileShortsword, then it’ll be 1d6/1d8 with finesse. -fin- Ya?
This is a good post. There's a lot going on with the weapons list, at it's heart though, it's a guide for people to assign a damage type and properties to the weapon they envision. Your one handed slasher? It's a scimitar. Your one handed thruster? Shortsword. So, your medieval arming sword is most closely represented as either a scimitar or a short sword depending on how you envision using it. It is /not/ a longsword as that both IRL and in 5e (not previous editions) allows for a 2h grip (versatile). It's also logical, if you assume a renaissance period view of swords, where the rapier and two handed sword would be considered long, and in comparison, an arming sword would be short.
Japanese swords should be categorized the same as Europoean swords. There's nothing magical or mystical about 1000 times folded tamahagane steel, or a soft back, with hard edge on a sword. There's nothing unique about a sword with a grip long enough to be used two handed. The weapons list has a weapon representative of this: Longsword. Given blade length is not something that should be considered (scimitars for example often have 36 inch blades, and count as D6s), there's not a problem with a ninja-to, used two handed, as a "longsword". It's not finesse when you do so though.
I think 5e went a little too far with handing out the finesse property on weapons, and it's made a lot of people feel entitled to finesse weapons. It's something that I sincerely hope is corrected in 6e.
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I did a scimitar with versatility for a Ninja-to and find it is neither game breaking or un reasonable. At the end it's about how dmg stacks and staying within norms. Great weapon style may be a thing for me down the line and compared to Dueling, it won't stack much different. It's just unique. But that's what homebrew is about. Balance.
Can be considered a Katana/Longsword finesse or Rapier finesse?
There is a lengthy ongoing discussion of that exact question right here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/9988-1d8-damage-versatile-with-finesse
I hope this was helpful.
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Rapiers are finesse and should remain so. A rapier is a thin and light blade that is designed to require less strength to use, focusing more on accuracy. The thin sharp blade is ideal for piercing allowing you to very easily pierce flesh without much strength - in fact, you actually shouldn't use too much strength, as if you go in too strong you decrease accuracy and attacking strongly but at a wrong angle can easily damage the blade.
Katanas are a type of longsword so would be the same stats as one. Longsword should not be finesse - they're too big and heavy. Simply swinging a longsword with precision won't do much (finesse are about precision, not speed and why they do piercing not slashing *). To get the speed, momentum and force needed to use the sword properly requires some strength in your muscles.
* Yes, scimitars are slashing and finesse, but this is because the designers goofed. Scimitars should not be finesse at all as they're similar to longswords - too heavy and big for finesse. Also finesse should always be piercing as it's accuracy, the speed of a weapon strike is more about your strength - dex is more about accuracy (hence it's use in ranged weapons like crossbows) and accuracy-based attacks are about piercing. Being accurate with a slashing weapon will do jack if you lack the strength behind it. Scimitars are curved blades, they are designed to slash, which makes them strength weapons. That plus their longer blade and greater weight means a scimitar should not be finesse - they are so purely due to designer ignorance.
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I think you might be viewing the idea of a D&D “Scimitar” a bit too narrowly as that weapon is also meant to encompass a falchion/messer which rely heavily on edge alignment and therefore would require a degree of hand-eye coordination which is why Dex is important (ergo finesse). A Longsword or Katana (or an actual historical Scimitar) has more weight behind the swing so power (Str) is more important.
I agree with you that a heavy slashing weapon would most certainly use Str. But for lighter slashing weapons that require those quick realignments mid swing (like a falchion/messer/saber) are okay with Dex. However, if they made non-finesse versions of the same weapons nobody would use them as they would be redundant. (It’s the same reason we don’t have an Arming Sword as it would be a Rapier without finesse, or a Longsword without versatile so they would just take up space in the book and never get used.)
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Yeah, we don't need to return to the days of having eight million polearms that are stat wise nearly indistinguishable.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Let's be real, scimitars are only finesse because of a certain drow ranger in popular stories...
And no, katanas cannot be finesse. They count as longswords. If you want to have a finesse katana for your anime fantasy, reskin yourself a scimitar and have at it. But no, your "ninja" does not get to sneak attack with a two handed d10 weapon.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I use a bog-standard Longsword as a katana, so don’t snip at me.
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I didn't intend to snip at you, sorry if you took it that way.
The second part was intended for the OP. I get butthurt every time I see someone trying to min-max better finesse weapons as if dex was not already the master combat stat. I'm pretty sure either the DMG or PHB even calls out katanas as being a kind of longsword, but there are constantly people trying to get finesse out of it somehow.
EDIT: Looked it up for the OP. Page 41 of the DMG:
An alternative name changes none of the weapon’s properties as they are described in the Player’s Handbook.
Longsword
jian (China); katana (Japan)
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sorry. No worries.
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So reading through this the one problem I have is that everyone assumes Katanas are one thing. They are not. They vary in size, there are great weapon style giant two handed katanas for battlefield use only, standard longsword style katanas for samurai policing, and lighter ninja stealth focused katanas. The Scimitar as a lighter form of a katana is problematic because Katanas do piercing damage and can be welded two handed. I personally for a rogue, would think 1d8 slashing, 1d6 Piercing finesse. It's not Op a rapier does 1d8 piercing and a Scimitar does 1d6 Slashing but really a ninja Katana is just a bit more versatile than both at the same weight and it's design is better for slashing but can still pierce due to the tip design.
This literally goes against everything I have read about katanas.
You seem to be confusing wakizashi and tanto as different katanas. They are not. The katana, a long sword, is designed for general outdoor combat and is best wielded with both hands. The wakizashi is a short sword, serving as a more "indoor" sword. The tanto is basically a dagger as a backup or when in very tight spaces.
All 3 are curved blades for slashing. The katana especially as you need to really understand how to slash this blade.
The "ninja" katana you are referring to is a chokuto, a straight-blade short-sword designed for piercing/stabbing. Although very commonly thought of as the "ninja" blade - there is no actual historical evidence they were used by ninjas.
The katana is a specific sword design. There are similar ones and are considered to be in the same "family" of swords but they are not, technically katana.
All katana, even if you want to broaden it more generically, are long swords and all are curved for slashing. These are specifically what makes a katana, a katana.
The D&D "longsword" is a close fit.
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Definitely not. Wakazashis are the equivalent of short swords and tanto's are daggers. A battlefield Katana is huge:
"The ōdachi (大太刀) (large/great sword) or nodachi (野太刀, field sword) is a type of traditionally made Japanese sword (日本刀, nihontō) used by the samurai class of feudal Japan."- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ōdachi
"The ninjato sword was the favored weapon carried by Shinobi (ninja) in feudal Japan. In contrast to the curved katana, this style of blade is characterized as being a short sword with a completely straight blade. In the legends, ninjatos were used by ninja as an additional stealth weapon."- https://www.swordsofnorthshire.com/ninjato
In these articles the Odachi is compared to a longsword or a claymore but really for DnD purposes it's more like a great sword.
The traditional Samurai sword used for policing the streets was really more like a longsword.
The Ninjato is described to be more like a short sword but really it's more like a Scimitar
The Wakazashi is really the short sword of the group
And the Tanto is a dagger essentially or a knife.
Katana can also be used as a generic term for all three main swords. a lot like pitbull for various bully breads. Yea there is APBT. Yea there is a KATANA. but this is DnD not a history lesson and the point is these things exist and there are reasonable categories for them and it would be fun to exist in DnD if you are going to have samurai builds and Shadow builds.
The word “katana” was originally a Chinese word “kun'yomi” that literally translates as “single-edged blade,” so saying that “katana come in many shapes, lengths, and sizes” is absolutely true, and no less accurate than saying “swords come in many shapes, lengths, and sizes.” However, while it originally referred to single-edged swords of any length, that is not what it means today, nor has it for around 1,300 years since the Japanese added it to their vocabulary. Since then a “Katana” has specifically been defined as a single edged, hand-and-a-half (versatile) sword of with a blade length of around 61 cm that was worn by Samurai in the 15th century. Another, more generic word for swords of that size is “Daitō,” which directly translates as “Longsword.” Yes, Katana did also vary somewhat from blade to blade, but so did European Longswords, but they are still comparable.👇
Those large, “great weapon style giant two-handed style” swords you referred to were specifically called “Ōdachi / Nodachi” which translate as “Greatsword” and “Field Sword” respectively. Ōdachi (Greatsword) referred to its massive size, and Nodachi (Field Sword) referred to its role on the “battlefield” as you pointed out.
A “Ninja” (officially “Shinobi”) was a spy and saboteur, a feudal Japanese guerrilla basically. They did use Katana, the same Longsword equivalent Katana as Samurai used. That “lighter ninja stealth focused” sword you referred to are called “Ninjatō” (or occasionally as “Shinobigatana”) are most likely a modern invention of the 20th century and not historically accurate at all. However, they would fall under the umbrella category of “shortswords,*” If Shinobi did carry a smaller, shorter blade even remotely similar to that, it was likely either a “Tantō” or a “Wakizashi,” the same shorter swords that Samurai paired with their Katana as part of their Daishō. The Tantō would either count as a shortsword or a Dagger in D&D, depending on whether one considers its length or its use respectively. Wakizashi would fall under the umbrella category of “scimitars.*”
*Historically there have never been specific swords known as either a “Shortsword” or a Scimitar specifically. The term “short sword” is just a descriptive term, and includes everything from the various Roman Gladii, to the Spada da Lato and anything else that was shorter than a “long sword”. The term “scimitar” typically referred to curved eastern blades, but in D&D it also includes Falchions, Messers, Backswords, and Cutlasses among others.
I hope that helps?
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Well we will have to agree to disagree on a NInjato being a Short sword but the Wakazashi being a scimitar class. Real scimitars or rather the middle eastern and North African swords Scimitars are based on are way bigger than Wakizashis , and Ninjato's are always longer than Wakazashis (the quality was more functional than art form, and very easily replaceable)but just as light or lighter. Wakazashis are Longer than daggers and Tantos as a short sword is pushing it a bit, but I know they can vary. I do appreciate your knowledge of swords, but this also doesn't resolve the issue of how this plays out in DnD. Only how you see it vs how I see it.
https://www.japanbyweb.com/ninja-museum-of-igaryu/
There is a pic there of a supposed ninja sword there with a strait edge and it is definitely longer than your average wakizashi, though not by much. It is supposed to be legit but so are all those Alien Museums in the U.S. It's an intermediary between the standard katana and the standard Wakizashi length wise. Which is why I say in DnD comparison, it is more accurate to compare it to a scimitar (real North African Swords are longer than what in DnD is a Short Sword). Short swords are 1d6 so Short sword is fine stat wise for a ninja-to, but it doesn't have a two handed option and a ninja-to (I know that it is a questionable existence, but that does not matter, it still exists and it's cool, also, Dr. Masaki Hatsumi says it's real and he wins) has a longer hilt for two handed use. I would like to see all these weapons added to DnD. in some more accurate and unique ways instead of subbing European weapons that don't quite have the same Nuances.
Thank you, you as well. it’s always nice to be able to discuss something interesting with someone who also has a passion for and knowledge about a shared interest. I love learning everything I can about the arms race from the Bronze Age through the Renaissance. I actually developed the passion because of the very, very loooonnng lists of weapons back in 2e. Lol I wanted to know what everything on the list was, and the more I learned the more I realized how much wasn’t on the list. It blew my mind. Part of me is a little sad that some kids today won’t get just as interested in history because of D&D. But on the other hand, I know that a much less bloated list is a lot better for the game in a lot of ways. I do think that they made things a little too much this time. I wish the top end was 4d4 & 2d8 instead of 2d6 & 1d12. Then the middle could spread out so that Strength builds could have a bit more appeal. Plus, an Arming sword could slide in at 1d10 to give the Rapier a run for its money. 😉
But anyway, back to the topic at hand:
Keep in mind that the specific blade length is less relevant when it comes to how things fit into D&D because all of the weapons represent general umbrella categories more than specific, exact things. So for swords, generally speaking anything with a blade up to 12 inches long is a dagger, anything that could be used with either one of two hands and has a blade 2 feet or longer is a longsword, anything in between is a shortsword or scimitar, anything with a blade around 2 ft long but strictly one-handed is a rapier, anything that requires two hands is a greatsword.
I said a Tantō could be either a dagger or Shortsword because it is technically a sword from a design/construction standpoint, but it was basically a dagger in size and use.🤷♂️
If the Ninjatō is too long to be a dagger, but not big enough to be a rapier or Longsword. Then it’s a Shortsword. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, and in this case it’s Japanesey. 😉 But if the hand-and-a-half grip is a sticking point for you, make it a versatile Shortsword, then it’ll be 1d6/1d8 with finesse. -fin- Ya?
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Currently trying and failing miserably to hombrew it on here ..... Need to learn the homebrew system better.
This is a good post. There's a lot going on with the weapons list, at it's heart though, it's a guide for people to assign a damage type and properties to the weapon they envision. Your one handed slasher? It's a scimitar. Your one handed thruster? Shortsword. So, your medieval arming sword is most closely represented as either a scimitar or a short sword depending on how you envision using it. It is /not/ a longsword as that both IRL and in 5e (not previous editions) allows for a 2h grip (versatile). It's also logical, if you assume a renaissance period view of swords, where the rapier and two handed sword would be considered long, and in comparison, an arming sword would be short.
Japanese swords should be categorized the same as Europoean swords. There's nothing magical or mystical about 1000 times folded tamahagane steel, or a soft back, with hard edge on a sword. There's nothing unique about a sword with a grip long enough to be used two handed. The weapons list has a weapon representative of this: Longsword. Given blade length is not something that should be considered (scimitars for example often have 36 inch blades, and count as D6s), there's not a problem with a ninja-to, used two handed, as a "longsword". It's not finesse when you do so though.
I think 5e went a little too far with handing out the finesse property on weapons, and it's made a lot of people feel entitled to finesse weapons. It's something that I sincerely hope is corrected in 6e.
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I did a scimitar with versatility for a Ninja-to and find it is neither game breaking or un reasonable. At the end it's about how dmg stacks and staying within norms. Great weapon style may be a thing for me down the line and compared to Dueling, it won't stack much different. It's just unique. But that's what homebrew is about. Balance.
Actually, It’s a thousand layers, not folds. It’s only really folded 10 times.
It works like puff pastry, except puff is tri-fold, so with 7 folds you can achieve 2,187 layers.
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you just blew my mind....