also, ignore the number that's on the post, the dice roller broke. We'll just say that the 'learning curve' number is 10 due to a good teaching roll from Scarra.
Sorci falls again and again and surprisingly, the more she falls, the less the impact really jostles her. She gets the timing to throw out her arms more and more precise. Without seeing where the ground is, she gets a sense of how close she is to the ground by the feeling in her body and the part of her that gets a little sore is surprisingly her shoulders. Scarra seems very pleased. "See? You're getting it. Of course, staying relaxed is just part of it, but it's the biggest part of it because now your body is listening to you instead of taking the reigns when you think you're about to get hurt. That is the first step into learning how to tumble." she says. "I think you've had enough for tonight though. I don't want you getting overconfident and actually hurting yourself tackling too much at once." she says.
So, Sorci would then have 6/30 skill points.
And now to quickly simulate progress over the next days, assuming that they have like, 2 weeks of downtime to spend on teaching Sorci to tumble.
Day 2: Scarra's teaching roll: 15 learning curve: 25. Sheesh, not bloody likely. Probably no skill points for that day. Day 3: Scarra's teaching roll: 21 learning curve: 20... not impossible, but good luck. Probably no skill points. Day 4: Scarra's teaching roll: 15 learning curve: 16. Fair chance of success. Day 5: Scarra's teaching roll: 6 learning curve: 7. Very likely to get quite a lot of skill points for this day. Day 6: Scarra's teaching roll: 6 learning curve: 19. chances aren't good. Day 7: Scarra's teaching roll: 16 learning curve: 12. Pretty decent chance of a fair number of skill points.
I have noticed that this edition more than any other people have a hard time distinguishing player from character. Players in many campaigns are forbidden from using their PCs’ skills and abilities in ways that would affect other PCs (stealth vs perception, etc.) and people legitimately getting upset over actions taken by fictional characters among other complications. While everyone is free to do how they do, and far be it from me to say otherwise, I feel that every once in a while it can’t hurt to remind folks that players are not their characters and vice versa. Even in instances such as this, drawing and maintaining a delineation between Players and PCs can help ensure that even just one person might not get hurt because of something that happens in-game.
As a DM, I do not, I repeat, I do not kill PCs. The villains certainly kill PCs on occasion, the environment kills PCs once in a while, other NPCs may even kill a PC sometimes. But I most certainly didn’t kill any of them. When players confuse in-game actions with player actions is often what causes issues with things like PC death because the IRL DM gets held accountable for what happens as if they personally intended malice.
Carry on, feel feee to ignore me or not as you like. However, remembering to distinguish players from characters every once in a while can’t hurt anyone, but forgetting that distinction does hurt people every once in a while.
I'm just concerned with everyone having fun, and being knocked unconscious and taken out of play for potentially days on end is a good way to lose a player's interest. Getting ko`d in a live game is no big deal as long as there's not a tpk, but in PBP? It just feels really, really bad and can happen in an instant because at least in my experience, the dice are most unforgiving to the point where it really does stop being funny and just becomes frustrating.
I want to reiterate, none of my players have had their characters die on them, but I actually had a campaign come to a screeching halt because two of the players were being taken down (unconscious, not dead) in the first turn of combat with an uncanny frequency. Tactics were sound, advantage was given appropriately, the dice STILL decreed that these two players, both fighter type classes, have their fun spoiled by having their characters be unconscious for the duration of the battle. Now, their stats weren't particularly special, but they were still a little better than the standard array.
They got so frustrated with being taken out of the game entirely that they started to cause arguments with the other players about trying to at least protect them, but really there was absolutely nothing that could have been done (They were taken down in one hit.) and they got even MADDER when I tried to offer mulligans because they didn't want me to 'cheat' for them. They were just ticked off that the dice were just the dice and the game just fizzled out when the vibes turned sour.
I myself have experienced this annoyance too, though my character didn't go down, I rolled no higher than 4 for any check for 17 straight rolls, and totally botched at least like, 5 times. I know, I counted before I finally got an 11 and it became kind of a running gag to the point I started making jokes that my character was actually farsighted which is why she couldn't hit anything as a monk.
I actually want to see if my terrible luck can even be demonstrated here... why not, let's give it a shot.
5171241372151915919 Pfft. Course it doesn't happen here THIS time. Still though, when there's a run of bad luck, something has to give.
I have noticed that this edition more than any other people have a hard time distinguishing player from character. Players in many campaigns are forbidden from using their PCs’ skills and abilities in ways that would affect other PCs (stealth vs perception, etc.) and people legitimately getting upset over actions taken by fictional characters among other complications. While everyone is free to do how they do, and far be it from me to say otherwise, I feel that every once in a while it can’t hurt to remind folks that players are not their characters and vice versa. Even in instances such as this, drawing and maintaining a delineation between Players and PCs can help ensure that even just one person might not get hurt because of something that happens in-game.
As a DM, I do not, I repeat, I do not kill PCs. The villains certainly kill PCs on occasion, the environment kills PCs once in a while, other NPCs may even kill a PC sometimes. But I most certainly didn’t kill any of them. When players confuse in-game actions with player actions is often what causes issues with things like PC death because the IRL DM gets held accountable for what happens as if they personally intended malice.
Carry on, feel feee to ignore me or not as you like. However, remembering to distinguish players from characters every once in a while can’t hurt anyone, but forgetting that distinction does hurt people every once in a while.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
Hmm, so...
Day 2: 7.
Day 3: 18.
Day 4: 5.
Day 5: 11.
Day 6: 20.
Day 7: 20.
Personally, I don't think getting downed in one hit is the problem (though insta-killed in the case of 1st and 2nd level characters is dangerous, but manageable as well). The problem is when the game doesn't move at a steady pace. It doesn't have to be quick, but at least steady. Waiting a day or two for someone doesn't bother me, so long that I know it's a day or two, and not eternity. Even once a week, given that it is a guaranteed once a week, is fine by me.
Whenever I see folks talk about “players” when they mean characters, and vice versa I like to remind the world that they are not actually the same.
In this case, I'm actually talking about the players themselves being annoyed with how long it can take to have their characters brought back to their feet in PBP. I'm specifically talking about making play by post more consistent with its pacing, because again, while PC's going down in a face to face game maybe gives someone a chance to get up and grab a snack or go to the bathroom without missing anything, it's a totally different matter in PBP, where if combat continues to go poorly, it can take a very, very long time before you're allowed to play again.
Having all characters on their feet as much as possible is the optimal way to keep play flowing, especially if it turns out that just one or two players just have rotten luck with the dice. And, I don't know if anyone here has experienced it, but there seems to be this unspoken expectation in Play By Post that the DM's dice rolls be shown, and if the dice are particularly cruel, it ties my hands if I have players who get taken out of the experience by me blatantly saying 'roll again, that didn't count.'
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Personally, I don't think getting downed in one hit is the problem (though insta-killed in the case of 1st and 2nd level characters is dangerous, but manageable as well). The problem is when the game doesn't move at a steady pace. It doesn't have to be quick, but at least steady. Waiting a day or two for someone doesn't bother me, so long that I know it's a day or two, and not eternity. Even once a week, given that it is a guaranteed once a week, is fine by me.
Right, but these two players were just consistently unlucky and the situation was compounded by me trying to intervene on their behalf since the dice roller was being shit. I regret not having set the expectation from the start that all my dice rolls be just posted, and not rolled in-thread, as again, as far as I've experienced, there is an expectation for that in PBP.
So, in this case, Sorci would have gotten 3 more skill points for the week, and we would have roleplayed out their various exercises. Was that interesting for you to play out? Did it all make sense and was easy to follow?
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DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
Whenever I see folks talk about “players” when they mean characters, and vice versa I like to remind the world that they are not actually the same.
In this case, I'm actually talking about the players themselves being annoyed with how long it can take to have their characters brought back to their feet in PBP.…
I was referring to the thread’s title stating “player survivability,” it’s been making my eye twitch for days.
Having all characters on their feet as much as possible is the optimal way to keep play flowing, especially if it turns out that just one or two players just have rotten luck with the dice. And, I don't know if anyone here has experienced it, but there seems to be this unspoken expectation in Play By Post that the DM's dice rolls be shown, and if the dice are particularly cruel, it ties my hands if I have players who get taken out of the experience by me blatantly saying 'roll again, that didn't count.'
In another campaign I'm in, the DM doesn't roll where we can see, I think. He rolls on the character sheets occasionally, but I can't really match which roll means what. Either way, he has been posting the results of his rolls and we just believe him. I admit that, at first, I didn't like that, but I've come to accept it. If he wanted to kill us, it wouldn't be hard, and if he wants to save us at all costs, that's not too hard either. Also, I believe he has been very honest with us. The only place that feels wrong is how very few times enemies resisted my character's shoves, but I could be wrong. She does have a good bonus to those checks, so the "DC" to the opposing side is often high. So long as it feels like the DM doesn't fudge their dice (and I assume they do occasionally, but if it's not too often), we have no reason to complain. That's just my experience though, others might feel otherwise. I don't ask my DM to roll in open in F2F games either, but others might be different.
Right, but these two players were just consistently unlucky and the situation was compounded by me trying to intervene on their behalf since the dice roller was being shit. I regret not having set the expectation from the start that all my dice rolls be just posted, and not rolled in-thread, as again, as far as I've experienced, there is an expectation for that in PBP.
So, in this case, Sorci would have gotten 3 more skill points for the week, and we would have roleplayed out their various exercises. Was that interesting for you to play out? Did it all make sense and was easy to follow?
I guess it's easy to follow, though the way points are granted feels too generous. Yes, Sorci only got 6 points in a week, but it's possible to get way too many points at once. Assuming the same characters, Scarra could roll 20, lowering the "DC" from 25 to... 2. If Sorci then rolls a 20, she has 23-2, so 21 points. In a single day to learn this much? Nope. Rather, I think there should be a minimum and maximum amount possible to get.
For example, once Sorci beats the DC set by Scarra, she rolls 1d6, and that's how many points she gets. 5-30 days of successful training sounds fair, if you ask me. Perhaps, if you roll high enough (a 20, or a difference calculated as (student's roll)-(teacher's roll) that is greater than x), then you can add more dice (double, add a d4... whatever). Maybe the size of the die is determined by the teacher. Just a friend who is proficient with the skill? D4. An average teacher? D6. A personal tutor that probably costs a lot? D8. Or different scaling, but something like that.
I guess it's easy to follow, though the way points are granted feels too generous. Yes, Sorci only got 6 points in a week, but it's possible to get way too many points at once. Assuming the same characters, Scarra could roll 20, lowering the "DC" from 25 to... 2. If Sorci then rolls a 20, she has 23-2, so 21 points. In a single day to learn this much? Nope. Rather, I think there should be a minimum and maximum amount possible to get.
For example, once Sorci beats the DC set by Scarra, she rolls 1d6, and that's how many points she gets. 5-30 days of successful training sounds fair, if you ask me. Perhaps, if you roll high enough (a 20, or a difference calculated as (student's roll)-(teacher's roll) that is greater than x), then you can add more dice (double, add a d4... whatever). Maybe the size of the die is determined by the teacher. Just a friend who is proficient with the skill? D4. An average teacher? D6. A personal tutor that probably costs a lot? D8. Or different scaling, but something like that.
I like that, it's basically like 'rolling damage', but INT gives you the only applicable 'bonus to damage', if only because it makes sense for a high INT characters to learn faster. Also, training should take up 8 hours a day and cannot be done more than once a day, for balance sake, though you CAN make a save against exhaustion so you don't end up with a penalty should anything unexpected happen. 1D4 for skilled allies inexperienced with teaching, 1D6 for proper tutors that cost a fair amount of money, 1D8 for expensive masters.
So, was that interesting to play out forya? It seems like the appropriate amount of roleplay and mechanics, because the big thing that I want to reward is thoughtful play augmented by the fun of random chance with rolling, so it feels sufficiently justified to add new skills to a character outside of levelling up, which is in itself, a reward for thoughtul play.
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DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
Whenever I see folks talk about “players” when they mean characters, and vice versa I like to remind the world that they are not actually the same.
In this case, I'm actually talking about the players themselves being annoyed with how long it can take to have their characters brought back to their feet in PBP.…
I was referring to the thread’s title stating “player survivability,” it’s been making my eye twitch for days.
Oh, so it's the sementics of it.
Well, the important part is the fact that Play By Post is a totally different beast from traditional D&D. 5e's base rules are more than sufficient to prevent premature character death, but knockouts can happen all too easily due to one or two bad rolls. D&D is MEANT to be played in such a way that if your character is taken down but not dead, you're only out for the span of a bathroom break or at least can cheer on your friends, not for the better part of a week. Play By Post lives and dies by the flow of play and maintaining player interest.
It's not that I think it's too easy to kill characters, it's that it's too easy to be taken out of play, even temporarily.
if that is genuinely your take away from what I’ve posted, then clearly either I have failed in delivering my message, or you have failed to read it.
My entire point is that it’s not just semantics, that it matters. Players are not their characters. That was my whole point.
You really made way more out of this than it was ever intended to be. I simply left a very short, every mild joke as nothing more than a gentle reminder to the universe for people to not confuse Players with Character. Admittedly it has nothing to do with what you’re discussing. Feel free to report my comment as “off-topic.” However, had it simply been left alone to just exist as it is, neither of us needed spend this much time discussing it further. As I said, feel free to disregard it and drop the whole matter. (Really.)
if that is genuinely your take away from what I’ve posted, then clearly either I have failed in delivering my message, or you have failed to read it.
My entire point is that it’s not just semantics, that it matters. Players are not their characters. That was my whole point.
You really made way more out of this than it was ever intended to be. I simply left a very short, every mild joke as nothing more than a gentle reminder to the universe for people to not confuse Players with Character. Admittedly it has nothing to do with what you’re discussing. Feel free to report my comment as “off-topic.” However, had it simply been left alone to just exist as it is, neither of us needed spend this much time discussing it further. As I said, feel free to disregard it and drop the whole matter. (Really.)
Oh, no, I got your point, but that's never been a problem for me, is what I meant. I was more referring to how it was 'making your eye twitch' just because I used apparently triggering jargon in the title of my thread, when that wasn't the intention of this workshop thread at all. I get your point, but it really isn't a factor in what I've been mulling over.
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DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
if that is genuinely your take away from what I’ve posted, then clearly either I have failed in delivering my message, or you have failed to read it.
My entire point is that it’s not just semantics, that it matters. Players are not their characters. That was my whole point.
You really made way more out of this than it was ever intended to be. I simply left a very short, every mild joke as nothing more than a gentle reminder to the universe for people to not confuse Players with Character. Admittedly it has nothing to do with what you’re discussing. Feel free to report my comment as “off-topic.” However, had it simply been left alone to just exist as it is, neither of us needed spend this much time discussing it further. As I said, feel free to disregard it and drop the whole matter. (Really.)
Oh, no, I got your point, but that's never been a problem for me, is what I meant. I was more referring to how it was 'making your eye twitch' just because I used apparently triggering jargon in the title of my thread, when that wasn't the intention of this workshop thread at all. I get your point, but it really isn't a factor in what I've been mulling over.
First off, “triggering” is a bit strong, more “peevish.”
Second, I wasn’t commenting on what you’re mulling over.
Third, my comment wasn’t directed towards you, it was directed towards any of the 7,900,000,000 citizens of Terra who might come across the post.
Kina, we understand what you are trying to do... but...
you also have to understand that play by post is the very same as playing on a table each weeks. the only difference is that it go forward reguardless of the day of the week. if anything play by post should be faster then playing once a week for 4 to 5 hours.
i have played an adventure i wanted to test in play by post. took us 3 months. Its an adventure i have ran 5 times up to this point. it works, but every times players gets slowed down by their own fears.
the problem of play by post is not the mechanics, the mechanics works as is. the problem is commitment. there is nothing you can do about that one.
what i did though, is insert a set of rules that asked the players to be present, if they are not the story goes forward without them. that rule worked, most players we're giving me their versions of what hapenned in a matter of 24 hours. the one time when it didn't happen it was the player forgetting the place existed and simple notification from a PM was enough. but it doesn't matter cause i would of gone forward without them if they weren't answering.
all that said, you are right... play by post is not made for big campaign like everyone are trying to do. if there is anything i got from my only 1 pbp that i DMed... is that short stories are much better then playing a whole campaign. that's your real problem there... if a simple 2 session adventure took us 3 months... how long do you think a whole curse of stradh campaign designed for 2 years of play will do to your PBP. of course nobody will sit and play for 10 years... so thats what people in PBP needs to get... PBP is not designed for big adventures, its designed to get a quick d&d fix. thats the problem people have in PBP and thats why i didn't go the distance into it and stop playing it.
now... pbp forces players into playing with their real dice, no fudging... that's your problem, careless players. that said, you are the DM... why are you even letting them die that easily ? what i do is give the player a chance by just telling him, i'm gonna leave him with 1 HP but give him something else. or i would simply start another game with him playing his death. i have players dieing in my real games and often times, it sucks... but i never, ever left it go that far. sure they died, but gods in the world exists, so why wouldn't they fight for the power of a single soul. pacts, fear, courage, all of it can be rewarded by the right divinity. you'd be surprised how often a player is willing to make a pact just for sake of being alive again.
ex... one of my player died, he was sad he was barely level 5. he was hoping to play more. but he was ready to make another character. i asked him, you still wanna play that character right. unless you feel you are done with this character i will not let you stop playing it just because of death. and more oftne then not, players are like... what ? and then i start playing their afterlife. you'd be surprised how much they try to become alive again. they are willing to do anything for that. so when they see death, or any champion of a divinity showing up, they plead. itswhat hapenned to the player... he saw a mute skeletal robed figure approach, the creature pointed toward him, then toward the body on the floor. reached into its robe and took out an old parchment which was a list of names... the player didn't wanna sign... the figure showed him the body, then took out his small one handed scythe. the figure showed him the parchment again then his body. the or came in the form of him putting his scythe around the players neck. the player feared what would happen if he was killed, he looked at me... said i was a bastard and he signed with a grin on his face. to this day he still doens't know what signature entailed. but his character is living happily ever after. until one day we'll make a one shot where something bad will happen to his character.
thats how you hook a player even after his death. you just play his death.
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Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I'll say it again, none of the PC's in my campaigns have died. The players who got frustrated were simply knocked unconscious and therefore couldn't do anything until their characters were patched up.
And as far as your experience in PBP is concerned, my experience has been very, very different, and I would certainly NOT say that PBP feels anything like FTF. At all. As I said before, my players WEREN'T being careless. They were acting with sound tactics and the dice just didn't cooperate. Despite the encounters being balanced (which is why they DIDN'T die) the unlucky players just had all their fun sucked away thanks to the luck all landing on the wrong side. The rules I'm workshopping are purely, 100% a check against the dice stubbornly disallowing players from succeeding in what they're trying to do without direct and obvious intervention from the DM(IF that even matters to the players; if they don't care that the DM isn't using the dice roller, it's all moot anyway, but as I said before, there seems to be an expectation that the DM roll like the PCs do), and that's ALL. It offers at least a fair chance(not a guarantee) for an unlucky player to withdraw and hunker down without being taken completely out of play or make a big gamble and fight to the bitter end. With the CON/Vitality buffer, it's at least the player's choice to take a chance and keep fighting when they're really on their last legs, so if they go down, it's their own fault, rather than getting crit'd for max damage at the beginning of the round and getting knocked out while only being down 5 HP from max through no fault of their own and end up at -1. The buffer is not a catch all either, with it only being as big as their max CON, it's not a very big buffer, but for consistently unlucky players, it would be enough to at least help out SOME so play can continue with everyone contributing.
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Hopefully the survival rate for your players is 100%. Killing PCs is inevitable, killing Players should be avoided at all costs. (Even the wangrods.)
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(Har de har har!)
also, ignore the number that's on the post, the dice roller broke. We'll just say that the 'learning curve' number is 10 due to a good teaching roll from Scarra.
Sorci falls again and again and surprisingly, the more she falls, the less the impact really jostles her. She gets the timing to throw out her arms more and more precise. Without seeing where the ground is, she gets a sense of how close she is to the ground by the feeling in her body and the part of her that gets a little sore is surprisingly her shoulders.
Scarra seems very pleased.
"See? You're getting it. Of course, staying relaxed is just part of it, but it's the biggest part of it because now your body is listening to you instead of taking the reigns when you think you're about to get hurt. That is the first step into learning how to tumble." she says.
"I think you've had enough for tonight though. I don't want you getting overconfident and actually hurting yourself tackling too much at once." she says.
So, Sorci would then have 6/30 skill points.
And now to quickly simulate progress over the next days, assuming that they have like, 2 weeks of downtime to spend on teaching Sorci to tumble.
Day 2: Scarra's teaching roll: 15 learning curve: 25. Sheesh, not bloody likely. Probably no skill points for that day.
Day 3: Scarra's teaching roll: 21 learning curve: 20... not impossible, but good luck. Probably no skill points.
Day 4: Scarra's teaching roll: 15 learning curve: 16. Fair chance of success.
Day 5: Scarra's teaching roll: 6 learning curve: 7. Very likely to get quite a lot of skill points for this day.
Day 6: Scarra's teaching roll: 6 learning curve: 19. chances aren't good.
Day 7: Scarra's teaching roll: 16 learning curve: 12. Pretty decent chance of a fair number of skill points.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
I have noticed that this edition more than any other people have a hard time distinguishing player from character. Players in many campaigns are forbidden from using their PCs’ skills and abilities in ways that would affect other PCs (stealth vs perception, etc.) and people legitimately getting upset over actions taken by fictional characters among other complications. While everyone is free to do how they do, and far be it from me to say otherwise, I feel that every once in a while it can’t hurt to remind folks that players are not their characters and vice versa. Even in instances such as this, drawing and maintaining a delineation between Players and PCs can help ensure that even just one person might not get hurt because of something that happens in-game.
As a DM, I do not, I repeat, I do not kill PCs. The villains certainly kill PCs on occasion, the environment kills PCs once in a while, other NPCs may even kill a PC sometimes. But I most certainly didn’t kill any of them. When players confuse in-game actions with player actions is often what causes issues with things like PC death because the IRL DM gets held accountable for what happens as if they personally intended malice.
Carry on, feel feee to ignore me or not as you like. However, remembering to distinguish players from characters every once in a while can’t hurt anyone, but forgetting that distinction does hurt people every once in a while.
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I'm just concerned with everyone having fun, and being knocked unconscious and taken out of play for potentially days on end is a good way to lose a player's interest. Getting ko`d in a live game is no big deal as long as there's not a tpk, but in PBP? It just feels really, really bad and can happen in an instant because at least in my experience, the dice are most unforgiving to the point where it really does stop being funny and just becomes frustrating.
I want to reiterate, none of my players have had their characters die on them, but I actually had a campaign come to a screeching halt because two of the players were being taken down (unconscious, not dead) in the first turn of combat with an uncanny frequency. Tactics were sound, advantage was given appropriately, the dice STILL decreed that these two players, both fighter type classes, have their fun spoiled by having their characters be unconscious for the duration of the battle. Now, their stats weren't particularly special, but they were still a little better than the standard array.
They got so frustrated with being taken out of the game entirely that they started to cause arguments with the other players about trying to at least protect them, but really there was absolutely nothing that could have been done (They were taken down in one hit.) and they got even MADDER when I tried to offer mulligans because they didn't want me to 'cheat' for them. They were just ticked off that the dice were just the dice and the game just fizzled out when the vibes turned sour.
I myself have experienced this annoyance too, though my character didn't go down, I rolled no higher than 4 for any check for 17 straight rolls, and totally botched at least like, 5 times. I know, I counted before I finally got an 11 and it became kind of a running gag to the point I started making jokes that my character was actually farsighted which is why she couldn't hit anything as a monk.
I actually want to see if my terrible luck can even be demonstrated here... why not, let's give it a shot.
5 17 12 4 13 7 2 15 19 15 9 19
Pfft. Course it doesn't happen here THIS time. Still though, when there's a run of bad luck, something has to give.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
What prompted this comment?
Tandor the White, Human Life Cleric
Hmm, so...
Day 2: 7.
Day 3: 18.
Day 4: 5.
Day 5: 11.
Day 6: 20.
Day 7: 20.
Personally, I don't think getting downed in one hit is the problem (though insta-killed in the case of 1st and 2nd level characters is dangerous, but manageable as well). The problem is when the game doesn't move at a steady pace. It doesn't have to be quick, but at least steady. Waiting a day or two for someone doesn't bother me, so long that I know it's a day or two, and not eternity. Even once a week, given that it is a guaranteed once a week, is fine by me.
Varielky
Whenever I see folks talk about “players” when they mean characters, and vice versa I like to remind the world that they are not actually the same.
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In this case, I'm actually talking about the players themselves being annoyed with how long it can take to have their characters brought back to their feet in PBP. I'm specifically talking about making play by post more consistent with its pacing, because again, while PC's going down in a face to face game maybe gives someone a chance to get up and grab a snack or go to the bathroom without missing anything, it's a totally different matter in PBP, where if combat continues to go poorly, it can take a very, very long time before you're allowed to play again.
Having all characters on their feet as much as possible is the optimal way to keep play flowing, especially if it turns out that just one or two players just have rotten luck with the dice.
And, I don't know if anyone here has experienced it, but there seems to be this unspoken expectation in Play By Post that the DM's dice rolls be shown, and if the dice are particularly cruel, it ties my hands if I have players who get taken out of the experience by me blatantly saying 'roll again, that didn't count.'
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
Right, but these two players were just consistently unlucky and the situation was compounded by me trying to intervene on their behalf since the dice roller was being shit. I regret not having set the expectation from the start that all my dice rolls be just posted, and not rolled in-thread, as again, as far as I've experienced, there is an expectation for that in PBP.
So, in this case, Sorci would have gotten 3 more skill points for the week, and we would have roleplayed out their various exercises. Was that interesting for you to play out? Did it all make sense and was easy to follow?
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
I was referring to the thread’s title stating “player survivability,” it’s been making my eye twitch for days.
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In another campaign I'm in, the DM doesn't roll where we can see, I think. He rolls on the character sheets occasionally, but I can't really match which roll means what. Either way, he has been posting the results of his rolls and we just believe him. I admit that, at first, I didn't like that, but I've come to accept it. If he wanted to kill us, it wouldn't be hard, and if he wants to save us at all costs, that's not too hard either. Also, I believe he has been very honest with us. The only place that feels wrong is how very few times enemies resisted my character's shoves, but I could be wrong. She does have a good bonus to those checks, so the "DC" to the opposing side is often high. So long as it feels like the DM doesn't fudge their dice (and I assume they do occasionally, but if it's not too often), we have no reason to complain. That's just my experience though, others might feel otherwise. I don't ask my DM to roll in open in F2F games either, but others might be different.
I guess it's easy to follow, though the way points are granted feels too generous. Yes, Sorci only got 6 points in a week, but it's possible to get way too many points at once. Assuming the same characters, Scarra could roll 20, lowering the "DC" from 25 to... 2. If Sorci then rolls a 20, she has 23-2, so 21 points. In a single day to learn this much? Nope. Rather, I think there should be a minimum and maximum amount possible to get.
For example, once Sorci beats the DC set by Scarra, she rolls 1d6, and that's how many points she gets. 5-30 days of successful training sounds fair, if you ask me. Perhaps, if you roll high enough (a 20, or a difference calculated as (student's roll)-(teacher's roll) that is greater than x), then you can add more dice (double, add a d4... whatever). Maybe the size of the die is determined by the teacher. Just a friend who is proficient with the skill? D4. An average teacher? D6. A personal tutor that probably costs a lot? D8. Or different scaling, but something like that.
Varielky
I like that, it's basically like 'rolling damage', but INT gives you the only applicable 'bonus to damage', if only because it makes sense for a high INT characters to learn faster.
Also, training should take up 8 hours a day and cannot be done more than once a day, for balance sake, though you CAN make a save against exhaustion so you don't end up with a penalty should anything unexpected happen. 1D4 for skilled allies inexperienced with teaching, 1D6 for proper tutors that cost a fair amount of money, 1D8 for expensive masters.
So, was that interesting to play out forya? It seems like the appropriate amount of roleplay and mechanics, because the big thing that I want to reward is thoughtful play augmented by the fun of random chance with rolling, so it feels sufficiently justified to add new skills to a character outside of levelling up, which is in itself, a reward for thoughtul play.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
Oh, so it's the sementics of it.
Well, the important part is the fact that Play By Post is a totally different beast from traditional D&D. 5e's base rules are more than sufficient to prevent premature character death, but knockouts can happen all too easily due to one or two bad rolls. D&D is MEANT to be played in such a way that if your character is taken down but not dead, you're only out for the span of a bathroom break or at least can cheer on your friends, not for the better part of a week. Play By Post lives and dies by the flow of play and maintaining player interest.
It's not that I think it's too easy to kill characters, it's that it's too easy to be taken out of play, even temporarily.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
if that is genuinely your take away from what I’ve posted, then clearly either I have failed in delivering my message, or you have failed to read it.
My entire point is that it’s not just semantics, that it matters. Players are not their characters. That was my whole point.
You really made way more out of this than it was ever intended to be. I simply left a very short, every mild joke as nothing more than a gentle reminder to the universe for people to not confuse Players with Character. Admittedly it has nothing to do with what you’re discussing. Feel free to report my comment as “off-topic.” However, had it simply been left alone to just exist as it is, neither of us needed spend this much time discussing it further. As I said, feel free to disregard it and drop the whole matter. (Really.)
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Oh, no, I got your point, but that's never been a problem for me, is what I meant. I was more referring to how it was 'making your eye twitch' just because I used apparently triggering jargon in the title of my thread, when that wasn't the intention of this workshop thread at all. I get your point, but it really isn't a factor in what I've been mulling over.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.
First off, “triggering” is a bit strong, more “peevish.”
Second, I wasn’t commenting on what you’re mulling over.
Third, my comment wasn’t directed towards you, it was directed towards any of the 7,900,000,000 citizens of Terra who might come across the post.
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Oh boy.
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You said it.
Tandor the White, Human Life Cleric
Kina, we understand what you are trying to do... but...
you also have to understand that play by post is the very same as playing on a table each weeks.
the only difference is that it go forward reguardless of the day of the week.
if anything play by post should be faster then playing once a week for 4 to 5 hours.
i have played an adventure i wanted to test in play by post.
took us 3 months.
Its an adventure i have ran 5 times up to this point. it works, but every times players gets slowed down by their own fears.
the problem of play by post is not the mechanics, the mechanics works as is.
the problem is commitment. there is nothing you can do about that one.
what i did though, is insert a set of rules that asked the players to be present, if they are not the story goes forward without them.
that rule worked, most players we're giving me their versions of what hapenned in a matter of 24 hours. the one time when it didn't happen it was the player forgetting the place existed and simple notification from a PM was enough. but it doesn't matter cause i would of gone forward without them if they weren't answering.
all that said, you are right...
play by post is not made for big campaign like everyone are trying to do.
if there is anything i got from my only 1 pbp that i DMed... is that short stories are much better then playing a whole campaign.
that's your real problem there... if a simple 2 session adventure took us 3 months... how long do you think a whole curse of stradh campaign designed for 2 years of play will do to your PBP. of course nobody will sit and play for 10 years... so thats what people in PBP needs to get... PBP is not designed for big adventures, its designed to get a quick d&d fix. thats the problem people have in PBP and thats why i didn't go the distance into it and stop playing it.
now... pbp forces players into playing with their real dice, no fudging... that's your problem, careless players.
that said, you are the DM... why are you even letting them die that easily ? what i do is give the player a chance by just telling him, i'm gonna leave him with 1 HP but give him something else. or i would simply start another game with him playing his death. i have players dieing in my real games and often times, it sucks... but i never, ever left it go that far. sure they died, but gods in the world exists, so why wouldn't they fight for the power of a single soul. pacts, fear, courage, all of it can be rewarded by the right divinity. you'd be surprised how often a player is willing to make a pact just for sake of being alive again.
ex... one of my player died, he was sad he was barely level 5. he was hoping to play more. but he was ready to make another character. i asked him, you still wanna play that character right. unless you feel you are done with this character i will not let you stop playing it just because of death. and more oftne then not, players are like... what ? and then i start playing their afterlife. you'd be surprised how much they try to become alive again. they are willing to do anything for that. so when they see death, or any champion of a divinity showing up, they plead. itswhat hapenned to the player... he saw a mute skeletal robed figure approach, the creature pointed toward him, then toward the body on the floor. reached into its robe and took out an old parchment which was a list of names... the player didn't wanna sign... the figure showed him the body, then took out his small one handed scythe. the figure showed him the parchment again then his body. the or came in the form of him putting his scythe around the players neck. the player feared what would happen if he was killed, he looked at me... said i was a bastard and he signed with a grin on his face. to this day he still doens't know what signature entailed. but his character is living happily ever after. until one day we'll make a one shot where something bad will happen to his character.
thats how you hook a player even after his death.
you just play his death.
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I'll say it again, none of the PC's in my campaigns have died. The players who got frustrated were simply knocked unconscious and therefore couldn't do anything until their characters were patched up.
And as far as your experience in PBP is concerned, my experience has been very, very different, and I would certainly NOT say that PBP feels anything like FTF. At all. As I said before, my players WEREN'T being careless. They were acting with sound tactics and the dice just didn't cooperate. Despite the encounters being balanced (which is why they DIDN'T die) the unlucky players just had all their fun sucked away thanks to the luck all landing on the wrong side. The rules I'm workshopping are purely, 100% a check against the dice stubbornly disallowing players from succeeding in what they're trying to do without direct and obvious intervention from the DM(IF that even matters to the players; if they don't care that the DM isn't using the dice roller, it's all moot anyway, but as I said before, there seems to be an expectation that the DM roll like the PCs do), and that's ALL. It offers at least a fair chance(not a guarantee) for an unlucky player to withdraw and hunker down without being taken completely out of play or make a big gamble and fight to the bitter end.
With the CON/Vitality buffer, it's at least the player's choice to take a chance and keep fighting when they're really on their last legs, so if they go down, it's their own fault, rather than getting crit'd for max damage at the beginning of the round and getting knocked out while only being down 5 HP from max through no fault of their own and end up at -1.
The buffer is not a catch all either, with it only being as big as their max CON, it's not a very big buffer, but for consistently unlucky players, it would be enough to at least help out SOME so play can continue with everyone contributing.
DM, professional illustrator and comic artist, suffering from severe spinal stenosis, married, middle aged, and nerdy.