What most people think of when they think “longbow” is an English longbow. That got its "cred” in the latter half of the 14th century and the very beginning of the 15th century, and mostly from the French. Yes, with adequate training and practice and a competent officer the English longbowmen could fire 10 arrows per minute, or one every 6 seconds. (Take that Extra Attack! 😝) They had an unprecedented range, and they had enough power that the arrows could effectively puncture mail (nowadays known as “chainmail”) and light Plate for the vast majority of that range. When the enemy has 100 archers firing 1,000 arrows per minute with effective ranges in excess of 660 ft., then your pretty much in the same boat as Dienekes was 1,000 years earlier, fighting in the shade. In fact, 660 feet was the minimum acceptable practice range for a longbowman.
And to be fair, the long bow here is not used in the same way a long bow is typically used in the game. Archers in medieval times weren't hitting bullseyes at 660 feet. They were raining down hundreds of arrows randomly on targets in that range. The idea was to pepper your enemy with arrows and hope it took out a few dozen troops. Less Legolas, more Game of Thrones. I'd argue the long bows used in D&D aren't the 6 foot English variety, but something in between that and the existing shortbow, with a longer bow for more power and longer range, but not too long to maintain the accuracy of a more finely tuned bow.
But even then, the longbow had a short lifespan of effectiveness. It wasn’t long before the perpetual arms race between offense and defense swung the other way and armor got thicker/stronger. That wasn’t overcome until crossbows black powder weapons basically made armor obsolete until someone tried to make a flat proof tire and accidentally invented Kevlar, which sucks against slow moving punctures like nails, or knives for that matter
Kevlar which longbows can shoot through with ease. I find the cycle amusing.
Also, adding on to IamSposta’s post, the English longbow needed the archer to be strong to even be able to effectively use it, and plate could deflect it at long ranges, and eventually plate would have problems with matchlock muskets, as at short to sometimes medium ranges, a musket ball could pierce plate, and flintlock made this worse.
There's another guy here on the forums that'd like a word with you. He's annoyed that people call it chain mail, he's says it's maille, coming from french. You should perhaps ask him so you can get the last facts straight. Otherwise I enjoyed this read. I'd prefer a short bow in general I think.
Thank you.
Yes, maille in French, mail in English.
You would have to point me to that person as I know not who you mean.
Kevlar which longbows can shoot through with ease. I find the cycle amusing.
Your average prison shank can go through a standard bullet resistant vest. That’s why Prison Guards don’t wear Kevlar, the wear “Stab Resistant Body Armor.”
Kevlar is only effective because it can diapers lots of kinetic energy very rapidly. That dispersal slows down a relatively light, relatively blunt object (like a bullet) from 330+ ft/s to 0 ft/s over a distance shorter than the thickness of the vest. Something comparatively sharper and slower moving (like an arrow or knife) will go right through it. Legit, the same thickness of tightly compacted cellulose or other fibrous material (like a gambeson) would be better protection. That’s why prisoners make their body armor out of newspaper.
Kevlar which longbows can shoot through with ease. I find the cycle amusing.
Your average prison shank can go through a standard bullet resistant vest. That’s why Prison Guards don’t wear Kevlar, the wear “Stab Resistant Body Armor.”
Kevlar is only effective because it can diapers lots of kinetic energy very rapidly. That dispersal slows down a relatively light, relatively blunt object (like a bullet) from 330+ ft/s to 0 ft/s over a distance shorter than the thickness of the vest. Something comparatively sharper and slower moving (like an arrow or knife) will go right through it. Legit, the same thickness of tightly compacted cellulose or other fibrous material (like a gambeson) would be better protection. That’s why prisoners make their body armor out of newspaper.
Newspaper is an amazing substance. Used properly, it can protect you from 1400' molten glass.
newspaper paper mache armor might? stop a short bow arrow. Maybe?
It simply boils down to proficiency limitations and style. Not much else to say. Same deal with spear and trident.
There's literally no excuse for a trident - at least shortbows with arrows weigh less than light crossbows with bolts, and don't have loading. Tridents cost more gp and more pounds of carrying capacity than spears, on top of being harder to wield - unless someone is deliberately spending their feats incompetently, there's no way to be proficient in a trident but not a spear. Anyone wielding a trident deserves nothing but ridicule.
Mechanically, the point of using a trident over a spear is in case you throw it at someone or otherwise get disarmed, some random schlub without martial training isn't going to be able to use it against you effectively. Pair that with a solid suit of armor and that dood will be better off swinging with his fists. But I digress.
For 5e, the shortbow is a great ranged weapon for most classes, especially when you factor in all of its pieces. It's easier to conceal, unlike a light crossbow, and it's got the same magic item support as the longbow (bracers of archery, efficient quiver, arrow of slaying, etc.) without the martial proficiency requirement or heavy property.
For 5e, the shortbow is a great ranged weapon for most classes, especially when you factor in all of its pieces. It's easier to conceal, unlike a light crossbow, and it's got the same magic item support as the longbow (bracers of archery, efficient quiver, arrow of slaying, etc.) without the martial proficiency requirement or heavy property.
Why on Earth do you think a shortbow is easier to conceal than a light crossbow?
For 5e, the shortbow is a great ranged weapon for most classes, especially when you factor in all of its pieces. It's easier to conceal, unlike a light crossbow, and it's got the same magic item support as the longbow (bracers of archery, efficient quiver, arrow of slaying, etc.) without the martial proficiency requirement or heavy property.
Why on Earth do you think a shortbow is easier to conceal than a light crossbow?
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
5E is too simplified for that to really matter - e.g. a longbow and a shortbow both work while mounted just fine. Homebrew is as homebrew does, but I'm not aware of any RAW anywhere saying two ranged weapons of the same size category have different Sleight of Hand DCs to conceal.
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
5E is too simplified for that to really matter - e.g. a longbow and a shortbow both work while mounted just fine. Homebrew is as homebrew does, but I'm not aware of any RAW anywhere saying two ranged weapons of the same size category have different Sleight of Hand DCs to conceal.
I was replying to the "Why on earth..." part of your original question.
There is no specific RAW DCs for each size category of weapon for the Sleight of Hand skill.
It is up to the DM to set the DC, therefore he could decide the shortbow is easier to conceal than a crossbow.
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
5E is too simplified for that to really matter - e.g. a longbow and a shortbow both work while mounted just fine. Homebrew is as homebrew does, but I'm not aware of any RAW anywhere saying two ranged weapons of the same size category have different Sleight of Hand DCs to conceal.
I was replying to the "Why on earth..." part of your original question.
There is no specific RAW DCs for each size category of weapon for the Sleight of Hand skill.
It is up to the DM to set the DC, therefore he could decide the shortbow is easier to conceal than a crossbow.
I would wonder why you would really need to conceal a shortbow. At any distance, it's just a stick.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
5E is too simplified for that to really matter - e.g. a longbow and a shortbow both work while mounted just fine. Homebrew is as homebrew does, but I'm not aware of any RAW anywhere saying two ranged weapons of the same size category have different Sleight of Hand DCs to conceal.
I was replying to the "Why on earth..." part of your original question.
There is no specific RAW DCs for each size category of weapon for the Sleight of Hand skill.
It is up to the DM to set the DC, therefore he could decide the shortbow is easier to conceal than a crossbow.
I would wonder why you would really need to conceal a shortbow. At any distance, it's just a stick.
It's a stick, bent into a particular curve by the drawstring (unless it is unstrung) :-)
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And to be fair, the long bow here is not used in the same way a long bow is typically used in the game. Archers in medieval times weren't hitting bullseyes at 660 feet. They were raining down hundreds of arrows randomly on targets in that range. The idea was to pepper your enemy with arrows and hope it took out a few dozen troops. Less Legolas, more Game of Thrones. I'd argue the long bows used in D&D aren't the 6 foot English variety, but something in between that and the existing shortbow, with a longer bow for more power and longer range, but not too long to maintain the accuracy of a more finely tuned bow.
Kevlar which longbows can shoot through with ease. I find the cycle amusing.
bows -> wood+leather barriers -> bullets -> sand bags -> bows
I'm not sure which kind of penalty I would give to longbows on mounts.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Also, adding on to IamSposta’s post, the English longbow needed the archer to be strong to even be able to effectively use it, and plate could deflect it at long ranges, and eventually plate would have problems with matchlock muskets, as at short to sometimes medium ranges, a musket ball could pierce plate, and flintlock made this worse.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Thank you.
Yes, maille in French, mail in English.
You would have to point me to that person as I know not who you mean.
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Your average prison shank can go through a standard bullet resistant vest. That’s why Prison Guards don’t wear Kevlar, the wear “Stab Resistant Body Armor.”
Kevlar is only effective because it can diapers lots of kinetic energy very rapidly. That dispersal slows down a relatively light, relatively blunt object (like a bullet) from 330+ ft/s to 0 ft/s over a distance shorter than the thickness of the vest. Something comparatively sharper and slower moving (like an arrow or knife) will go right through it. Legit, the same thickness of tightly compacted cellulose or other fibrous material (like a gambeson) would be better protection. That’s why prisoners make their body armor out of newspaper.
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Newspaper is an amazing substance. Used properly, it can protect you from 1400' molten glass.
newspaper paper mache armor might? stop a short bow arrow. Maybe?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Newspaper is amazing because it’s made from trees and trees are amazing.
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Also, the 5e longbow is listed as only weighing 2 pounds, so it's probably not a english longbow.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Mechanically, the point of using a trident over a spear is in case you throw it at someone or otherwise get disarmed, some random schlub without martial training isn't going to be able to use it against you effectively. Pair that with a solid suit of armor and that dood will be better off swinging with his fists. But I digress.
For 5e, the shortbow is a great ranged weapon for most classes, especially when you factor in all of its pieces. It's easier to conceal, unlike a light crossbow, and it's got the same magic item support as the longbow (bracers of archery, efficient quiver, arrow of slaying, etc.) without the martial proficiency requirement or heavy property.
Why on Earth do you think a shortbow is easier to conceal than a light crossbow?
It's a straight bit of wood, rather than a piece of wood with a metallic crossbar sticking out on both sides.
5E is too simplified for that to really matter - e.g. a longbow and a shortbow both work while mounted just fine. Homebrew is as homebrew does, but I'm not aware of any RAW anywhere saying two ranged weapons of the same size category have different Sleight of Hand DCs to conceal.
I was replying to the "Why on earth..." part of your original question.
There is no specific RAW DCs for each size category of weapon for the Sleight of Hand skill.
It is up to the DM to set the DC, therefore he could decide the shortbow is easier to conceal than a crossbow.
I would wonder why you would really need to conceal a shortbow. At any distance, it's just a stick.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It's a stick, bent into a particular curve by the drawstring (unless it is unstrung) :-)