Just a quick rule check. If I have a Multi class Fighter lvl 6, Wizard lvl 2, can he attack twice with bow and then use action surge to cast a spell? It seems clear that you can not use multi attack to cast spells but action surge is an extra action. Thank you as always for all of your help. Everyone has never let me down with answering my questions. You experienced players are what makes this site worth paying for.
Yes, action surge will give you a second action for that turn and you can choose to cast a spell instead of taking the attack/multi-attack action.
Keep in mind, if you are using material components, you'll need to have a hand free to cast the spell (in case of using a shield or two weapon fighting).
Thanks! Just noticed on my character that all the damage spells are showing lvl 5 damage... fire bolt for example says I do 2d10. Does multi classing take the highest level of your classes to calculate these things?
However, it's Somatic components that need a free hand as well (so do Material ones, but you can use the same hand you use for Somatic for them). Why is that important? Because many more spells require Somatic components than Material ones.
Having a sword and shield would thus require you to sheathe or drop your sword (the former requiring an action, the latter not). Two handed weapons do not usually prevent casting, as you can remove one hand from the weapon without incident, as long as you're not doing it while you're attacking (so be careful of Reactions during your attack, such as a Counterspell to a Shield).
Thanks! Just noticed on my character that all the damage spells are showing lvl 5 damage... fire bolt for example says I do 2d10. Does multi classing take the highest level of your classes to calculate these things?
The effect of damage cantrips depends on character level not class level. So a level 10 Fighter level 1 Warlock can - for example - attack with three Eldritch Blast bolts!
I find that strange because bonus attacks depend on class level but this is what the rules say...
The effect of damage cantrips depends on character level not class level. So a level 10 Fighter level 1 Warlock can - for example - attack with three Eldritch Blast bolts!
I find that strange because bonus attacks depend on class level but this is what the rules say...
If cantrips weren't based on character level they could become obsolete in multiclassing situations. They're supposed to always be relevant, since they're a spellcaster's equivalent of the Attack action. And, unlike the Attack action, there's relatively few ways to improve on casting a cantrip. If you're lucky, your class has a feature that lets you add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage at higher levels.
It seems widely accepted that you need 5 levels (6 at times) in a melee class to gain a second attack or 20 fighter levels to get 4 attacks. So to make the attack action "relevant" in higher levels most builds rely on multiple attacks and these need multiple levels of one class. I do not see why this should be different with cantrips. So why a level 1 Warlock (or level 2 if you want to include Agonizing Blast) with 15 or 16 fighter or ranger levels should be as good at Blasting as the level 17 Warlock I dont know. This is one of the things that makes the Warlock a "dip-class" and I do not like it. In my opinion increasing the effect of cantrips should be as "costly" as increasing the effects of the attack action. But as I wrote: the rules state that is is that way so that is the way it is ;-)
You're singling out Extra Attack and glossing over lots of important differences between weapon attacks and cantrips.
You get to add your ability modifier to your weapon attacks, cantrips generally require a level 6+ class feature to achieve the same thing, which not all classes get, and the ones that do only have it on specific subclasses.
You can use your weapon attacks for opportunity attacks; you can't do the same with cantrips without War Caster. Cavaliers or anyone with the Sentinel feat get additional opportunities to use their reaction for attacks.
You generally can't use your bonus action for attacking in tandem with a cantrip without using a spell slot. In contrast, every weapon user has the option of Two-Weapon Fighting; Monks get Martial Arts; Berserker Barbarians can frenzy; Cavaliers get Unwavering Mark; Horizon Walkers get Planar Warrior; Rogues can hide with Cunning Action for advantage; most classes can use the Polearm Master or Great Weapon Fighting feats.
Magic weapons (including the Magic Weapon spell) can improve your damage on every attack, but there's generally no +1 focus that does the same for spells.
There's a large number of class features that can improve your weapon attacks (which, again, often leaks over into your bonus action and opportunity attacks.) Fighting Style, Rage, Martial Arts, Sneak Attack and Hex are all available at first level. Not to mention Flurry of Blows, practically every 3rd level Ranger or Fighter class feature and Divine Smite all being available 3 levels in. These all generally stack.
Contrast that to multiclassing as a spellcaster. The main benefit you're getting is more spells, not improvements to your existing spells. If you're a wizard and you dip into cleric, getting access to Sacred Flame doesn't do anything for Fire Bolt. Getting access to cleric spells is great, but you're also perpetually one level behind on learning higher level spells. If you're a Monk or Ranger and you've already gotten access to Extra Attack, being 1 level behind in your class features isn't going to impact you the same way as it would a spellcaster, and dipping into Fighter for a Fighting Style will often make you better instead of just giving you more options.
Cursebringer, Remember that cantrips are also balanced in a few other ways.
1) You can't get your spell casting MOD to them.
1-a) Now as InquisitiveCoder points out you CAN, but it requires 6 levels into most classes (Dragon Sorcerer, Potent Cantrip Cleric, Celestial Warlock...). The only exception to this is Warlock as Agonizing Blast can be picked up at level 2. But remember that feature only applies to a single Cantrip, while the other abilties apply to all Cantrips or all spells with a specific energy type)
2) There are a lot of abilities that allow extra attacks if you make an Attack Action, Attack Spell doesn't do this.
3) There are tons of way to boost hit and damage with weapons. I only know of the Rod of the Pact Keeper which gives a bonus to hit, and DCs (not damage) for Warlock spells and Wand of the War Mage which gives a bonus to hit (no damage) and ignores cover for everyone else.
So a lvl 11 Fighter and Warlock.
Fighter. 3 attacks, To Hit: Proficiency + Mod + (Magic Weapon), Damage: weapon type + Mod + (Magic Weapon) + (Fighter Ability)
Warlock. 3 attack, To Hit: Proficiency + Mod, Damage 1d10 (+ Mod if they have Agonizing Blast)
Now your point is a level 11 Fighter/2 Warlock can choose every turn which one he wants to do... but now you're also splitting your Ability Score Increases. Really it's not going to be much of a choice as one will probably outclass the other. The same is true for other classes. Every 2 levels Rogues do another +1d6, Rangers and Barbarians have their own special mods.
Without increased damage the casters just aren't going to keep up. Is your solution to have your level be determined by you spellcasting level instead of character level? If that's true then Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are doing to be screwed hardcore.
Is your solution to have you level be determined by the class with which you gained the cantrip? Complimentary M.Classes are going to be hard hit there.
If I had written the rules I would have gone with class level. Probably I would have allowed to add all levels of classes a character has with the cantrip in question on its spell list if the character picks it.
Sure, the main example for possible abuse in my eyes ist the Warlock and eldritch blast. You are even SADder than without multiclassing If you dip your Paladin into the Hexblade. Two levels Warlock dip bring you on par with the single class Warlock regarding EB.
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Just a quick rule check. If I have a Multi class Fighter lvl 6, Wizard lvl 2, can he attack twice with bow and then use action surge to cast a spell? It seems clear that you can not use multi attack to cast spells but action surge is an extra action. Thank you as always for all of your help. Everyone has never let me down with answering my questions. You experienced players are what makes this site worth paying for.
Yes, action surge will give you a second action for that turn and you can choose to cast a spell instead of taking the attack/multi-attack action.
Keep in mind, if you are using material components, you'll need to have a hand free to cast the spell (in case of using a shield or two weapon fighting).
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Thanks! Just noticed on my character that all the damage spells are showing lvl 5 damage... fire bolt for example says I do 2d10. Does multi classing take the highest level of your classes to calculate these things?
As Sorce said, the action is allowed.
However, it's Somatic components that need a free hand as well (so do Material ones, but you can use the same hand you use for Somatic for them). Why is that important? Because many more spells require Somatic components than Material ones.
Having a sword and shield would thus require you to sheathe or drop your sword (the former requiring an action, the latter not). Two handed weapons do not usually prevent casting, as you can remove one hand from the weapon without incident, as long as you're not doing it while you're attacking (so be careful of Reactions during your attack, such as a Counterspell to a Shield).
The Forum Infestation (TM)
It seems widely accepted that you need 5 levels (6 at times) in a melee class to gain a second attack or 20 fighter levels to get 4 attacks. So to make the attack action "relevant" in higher levels most builds rely on multiple attacks and these need multiple levels of one class. I do not see why this should be different with cantrips. So why a level 1 Warlock (or level 2 if you want to include Agonizing Blast) with 15 or 16 fighter or ranger levels should be as good at Blasting as the level 17 Warlock I dont know. This is one of the things that makes the Warlock a "dip-class" and I do not like it. In my opinion increasing the effect of cantrips should be as "costly" as increasing the effects of the attack action. But as I wrote: the rules state that is is that way so that is the way it is ;-)
Contrast that to multiclassing as a spellcaster. The main benefit you're getting is more spells, not improvements to your existing spells. If you're a wizard and you dip into cleric, getting access to Sacred Flame doesn't do anything for Fire Bolt. Getting access to cleric spells is great, but you're also perpetually one level behind on learning higher level spells. If you're a Monk or Ranger and you've already gotten access to Extra Attack, being 1 level behind in your class features isn't going to impact you the same way as it would a spellcaster, and dipping into Fighter for a Fighting Style will often make you better instead of just giving you more options.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Cursebringer, Remember that cantrips are also balanced in a few other ways.
1) You can't get your spell casting MOD to them.
1-a) Now as InquisitiveCoder points out you CAN, but it requires 6 levels into most classes (Dragon Sorcerer, Potent Cantrip Cleric, Celestial Warlock...). The only exception to this is Warlock as Agonizing Blast can be picked up at level 2. But remember that feature only applies to a single Cantrip, while the other abilties apply to all Cantrips or all spells with a specific energy type)
2) There are a lot of abilities that allow extra attacks if you make an Attack Action, Attack Spell doesn't do this.
3) There are tons of way to boost hit and damage with weapons. I only know of the Rod of the Pact Keeper which gives a bonus to hit, and DCs (not damage) for Warlock spells and Wand of the War Mage which gives a bonus to hit (no damage) and ignores cover for everyone else.
So a lvl 11 Fighter and Warlock.
Fighter. 3 attacks, To Hit: Proficiency + Mod + (Magic Weapon), Damage: weapon type + Mod + (Magic Weapon) + (Fighter Ability)
Warlock. 3 attack, To Hit: Proficiency + Mod, Damage 1d10 (+ Mod if they have Agonizing Blast)
Now your point is a level 11 Fighter/2 Warlock can choose every turn which one he wants to do... but now you're also splitting your Ability Score Increases. Really it's not going to be much of a choice as one will probably outclass the other. The same is true for other classes. Every 2 levels Rogues do another +1d6, Rangers and Barbarians have their own special mods.
Without increased damage the casters just aren't going to keep up.
Is your solution to have your level be determined by you spellcasting level instead of character level? If that's true then Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are doing to be screwed hardcore.
Is your solution to have you level be determined by the class with which you gained the cantrip? Complimentary M.Classes are going to be hard hit there.
If I had written the rules I would have gone with class level. Probably I would have allowed to add all levels of classes a character has with the cantrip in question on its spell list if the character picks it.
Sure, the main example for possible abuse in my eyes ist the Warlock and eldritch blast. You are even SADder than without multiclassing If you dip your Paladin into the Hexblade. Two levels Warlock dip bring you on par with the single class Warlock regarding EB.