I am really confused on the total number of attacks when stacking Dread Ambusher, Crossbow Expert, Action Surge, and the Extra Attack from hitting level 5. I would really appreciate someone explaining it to me. Thanks!
Taking into account the rules for Dread Ambusher:
If I get 2 attacks per action does Dread Ambusher trigger twice, once for each attack?
If I use Action Surge does that mean I get 2 more attacks and each of this triggering Dread Ambusher?
All that being said if I have Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow do I still only get 1 Bonus Action total across all 4 attacks, even though I can make 4 attacks with a crossbow?
So, you're running into one of the confusing problems with how things are worded in D&D...
There is the Attack Action, and then individual attacks, which are two separate, but related things.
As a level 5 Gloomstalker, you have the Extra Attack feature, which modifies your Attack Action allowing you to make two Weapon Attacks when taking the Attack Action (confusing, I know). Dread Ambusher only activates once per use of the Attack Action. So on your first turn if you use your action to take the Attack Action, you may attack 3 times total.
Action Surge allows you to take one additional Action. Looking at it... this does appear to stack with Dread Ambusher... the Dread Ambusher says that it is triggered by use of the Attack Action, but doesn't state that you're limited to only one per turn (like with something like Sneak Attack).
So, on the first round of combat, you inherently get three attacks when taking the Attack Action. Using Action Surge you can then take 3 additional attacks. Crossbow expert allows you to make an attack with a Crossbow as a bonus action... this bonus action attack is not the same as the "Attack Action", and does not combine with Dread Ambusher.
So on your first turn, using Action Surge, Dread Ambusher, and Crossbow Expert, you can take a total of 7 attacks.
A lot of it is understanding the difference between "an attack" and "the attack action"
Extra attack says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Dread Ambusher states "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
Crossbow Expert says "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding."
If you do not use action surge you only take the attack action once although that action involves 2 attacks, therefore you get two attacks plus your dread ambusher attack. If you wish you can also use your bonus action to make an attack with a hand crossbow (assuming you attack action was using a one handed weapon) but this is not taking the attack action so dread ambusher does not apply
It gets a little more confusing when you thow in an action surge as the wording assumes you only have one action but I would rule and I think it is RAI that you make ONE additional weapon attack so if you use action surge (and use both actions to attack) dread ambusher only applies once though that is up to some DM interpretation. Therefore on the frst turn you get:
Attack action: 2 (normal) attacks + a dread ambusher attack (where damage is 1d8)
Action Surge: 2 (normal) attacks (assuming you still have it available and want to use it)
Bonus Action: 1 crossbow attack (assuming you qualify)
A lot of it is understanding the difference between "an attack" and "the attack action"
One of the easier things to look for is the difference between “an attack” and “the Attack action.” Since “Attack” is a proper name for that action, it should be capitalized according to the RAW of the English language. They did that most of the time.
Dread Ambusher can trigger twice if you use Action Surge to take the Attack Action twice on your first turn. It is one of the reasons why a Gloomstalker Fighter is one of the more popular multiclasses that people take.
This means you can shoot 7 times on your first turn with Crossbow Expert at level 7 (Gloomstalker 5 Fighter 2) if you burn your Action Surge and shoot with your bonus action.
While Jegpeg would argue its only meant to trigger once, that is not the case at all as there would be wording to limit it to once per turn if that was the intention much like the wording that exists on the Samurai's level 15 ability: Rapid Strike.
Dread Ambusher can trigger twice if you use Action Surge to take the Attack Action twice on your first turn. It is one of the reasons why a Gloomstalker Fighter is one of the more popular multiclasses that people take.
This means you can shoot 7 times on your first turn with Crossbow Expert at level 7 (Gloomstalker 5 Fighter 2) if you burn your Action Surge and shoot with your bonus action.
While Jegpeg would argue its only meant to trigger once, that is not the case at all as there would be wording to limit it to once per turn if that was the intention much like the wording that exists on the Samurai's level 15 ability: Rapid Strike.
The wording on extra attack is "Whenever you take the attack action" that is the wording used to make it clear it stacks with action Surge.
The wording on dread ambusher is "If you take 5he attack action on that turn" which at least to me implies you can do it once if you meet the criteria. I admit "As part of that action" muddies the waters as RAW was not considering action Surge as a possibility otherwise it would be worded either like Rapid Strike or Extra Attack. As it is it is a DM call.
Dread Ambusher can trigger twice if you use Action Surge to take the Attack Action twice on your first turn. It is one of the reasons why a Gloomstalker Fighter is one of the more popular multiclasses that people take.
This means you can shoot 7 times on your first turn with Crossbow Expert at level 7 (Gloomstalker 5 Fighter 2) if you burn your Action Surge and shoot with your bonus action.
While Jegpeg would argue its only meant to trigger once, that is not the case at all as there would be wording to limit it to once per turn if that was the intention much like the wording that exists on the Samurai's level 15 ability: Rapid Strike.
The wording on extra attack is "Whenever you take the attack action" that is the wording used to make it clear it stacks with action Surge.
The wording on dread ambusher is "If you take 5he attack action on that turn" which at least to me implies you can do it once if you meet the criteria. I admit "As part of that action" muddies the waters as RAW was not considering action Surge as a possibility otherwise it would be worded either like Rapid Strike or Extra Attack. As it is it is a DM call.
Yes of course everything at your table is ultimately your DMs call. However this is the Rules and Mechanics section, our answers should be determined by RAW and not individual DM calls.
Lets look at the wording of the abilities I mentioned
Dread Ambusher
At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type.
Rapid Strike
Starting at 15th level, you learn to trade accuracy for swift strikes. If you take the Attack action on your turn and have advantage on an attack roll against against one of the targets, you can forgo the advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn.
Both abilities mention you can make an additional attack as part of the same action. However Rapid Strike has the additional restraint that you cannot do so more than once a turn.
Now your argument of Dread Ambusher was not considering Action Surge as a possibility is fairly weak. I mean these subclasses came out in Xanathar's not the PHB, so multiclassing will not be a new nor foreign idea to the design team. If they truly did not want Dread Ambusher to be stackable with Action Surge they would have added a once per turn trigger like you see on some other Ranger abilities.
I mean you can take a look at Monster Slayer which also came out in Xanathar's, Slayer's Prey is capped once per turn.
I am really confused on the total number of attacks when stacking Dread Ambusher, Crossbow Expert, Action Surge, and the Extra Attack from hitting level 5. I would really appreciate someone explaining it to me. Thanks!
Taking into account the rules for Dread Ambusher:
If I get 2 attacks per action does Dread Ambusher trigger twice, once for each attack?
If I use Action Surge does that mean I get 2 more attacks and each of this triggering Dread Ambusher?
All that being said if I have Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow do I still only get 1 Bonus Action total across all 4 attacks, even though I can make 4 attacks with a crossbow?
This is just really confusing to me..
On the first turn of combat, a Gloomstalker 5 / Fighter 2 with Crossbow Expert gets 7 attacks;
I am really confused on the total number of attacks when stacking Dread Ambusher, Crossbow Expert, Action Surge, and the Extra Attack from hitting level 5. I would really appreciate someone explaining it to me. Thanks!
Taking into account the rules for Dread Ambusher:
If I get 2 attacks per action does Dread Ambusher trigger twice, once for each attack?
If I use Action Surge does that mean I get 2 more attacks and each of this triggering Dread Ambusher?
All that being said if I have Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow do I still only get 1 Bonus Action total across all 4 attacks, even though I can make 4 attacks with a crossbow?
This is just really confusing to me..
On the first turn of combat, a Gloomstalker 5 / Fighter 2 with Crossbow Expert gets 7 attacks;
Either six or seven are both supported by the text, so it's DM's call
Dread Ambusher can be read as one extra attack per Attack action, or one extra attack total on a turn in which you take the Attack action (regardless of how many times you take it)
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Either six or seven are both supported by the text, so it's DM's call
Dread Ambusher can be read as one extra attack per Attack action, or one extra attack total on a turn in which you take the Attack action (regardless of how many times you take it)
To me nothing in the wording prevents you from using it more than once. You are enabled to use If you take the Attack action on that turn
If you have more than one way to interpret it, the most permissive one should take precedence.
Either six or seven are both supported by the text, so it's DM's call
Dread Ambusher can be read as one extra attack per Attack action, or one extra attack total on a turn in which you take the Attack action (regardless of how many times you take it)
It really isn't though.
If you take the attack action you get an additional attack as part of that action, so if you surge and take a second attack action then the criteria is met again and thus you get an additional attack once more.
@Drunemeton Good morning! Can you enlighten us on the Gloom Stalker’s “Dread Ambush” feature and whether it processes per Attack action taken or per Turn? Thank you.
@JeremyECrawford Dread Ambusher says, "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action." The extra attack is tied to the action.
@_No_MatCh_ So meaning an Action Surge would grant you another Dread Ambusher Attack, correct?
To me nothing in the wording prevents you from using it more than once. You are enabled to use If you take the Attack action on that turn
Nothing in the wording explicitly says you can use it more than once a turn either. "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action" is very much not "Make an additional weapon attack every time you take the Attack action"
JC's tweets might illustrate the RAI, but they don't impact RAW
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you take the attack action you get an additional attack as part of that action, so if you surge and take a second attack action then the criteria is met again and thus you get an additional attack once more.
Or, you get the specified one (1) additional attack on a turn in which you took the Attack action. How many times you take the Attack action would be irrelevant to that interpretation
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean it's an absurd number either way, and a DM that's going to allow that multiclass combo might as well let the player go off for seven attacks in a turn because at that point LOL
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I totally understand why a DM would rule that Dread Ambusher only triggers once... it does say that you get "One" Attack when you use the Attack Action... I can see a DM saying "You got your One attack from the attack action, you don't get another one for taking the attack action again".
That said, it does stand out to me that Dread Ambusher doesn't include any text that says it only triggers once Per Turn, as most other similar abilities do. For example, the Hunter Subclass can get an additional attack under the right conditions, but it very overtly states that it's only once per turn. The Samurai's Rapid Strike also states that it can only be used once per turn. The fact that Dread Ambusher doesn't include that caveat leads me to believe that it was fully intended for the ability to stack with Action Surge.
Nothing in the wording explicitly says you can use it more than once a turn either. "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action" is very much not "Make an additional weapon attack every time you take the Attack action"
JC's tweets might illustrate the RAI, but they don't impact RAW
Functionally those two sentences are the same though, - if attack action -> make additional attack. The only limit to it that is has to be during the first turn of the combat.
Nothing in the wording explicitly says you can use it more than once a turn either. "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action"
I mean it's an absurd number either way, and a DM that's going to allow that multiclass combo might as well let the player go off for seven attacks in a turn because at that point LOL
Not sure what's absurd about it tbh. A fighter that surges and have an bonus action attack can do 3 attacks at lvl1-4, 5 attacks at lvl 5-10, 7 attacks at lvl 11-19 and 9 attacks at lvl 20. Making lots of attacks is what the fighter is about. The fact that a class feature that is specifically meant to increase your number of attacks works really well when paired with the fighters class features shouldn't be a surprise to anyone tbh.
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I am really confused on the total number of attacks when stacking Dread Ambusher, Crossbow Expert, Action Surge, and the Extra Attack from hitting level 5. I would really appreciate someone explaining it to me. Thanks!
Taking into account the rules for Dread Ambusher:
If I get 2 attacks per action does Dread Ambusher trigger twice, once for each attack?
If I use Action Surge does that mean I get 2 more attacks and each of this triggering Dread Ambusher?
All that being said if I have Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow do I still only get 1 Bonus Action total across all 4 attacks, even though I can make 4 attacks with a crossbow?
This is just really confusing to me..
So, you're running into one of the confusing problems with how things are worded in D&D...
There is the Attack Action, and then individual attacks, which are two separate, but related things.
As a level 5 Gloomstalker, you have the Extra Attack feature, which modifies your Attack Action allowing you to make two Weapon Attacks when taking the Attack Action (confusing, I know). Dread Ambusher only activates once per use of the Attack Action. So on your first turn if you use your action to take the Attack Action, you may attack 3 times total.
Action Surge allows you to take one additional Action. Looking at it... this does appear to stack with Dread Ambusher... the Dread Ambusher says that it is triggered by use of the Attack Action, but doesn't state that you're limited to only one per turn (like with something like Sneak Attack).
So, on the first round of combat, you inherently get three attacks when taking the Attack Action. Using Action Surge you can then take 3 additional attacks. Crossbow expert allows you to make an attack with a Crossbow as a bonus action... this bonus action attack is not the same as the "Attack Action", and does not combine with Dread Ambusher.
So on your first turn, using Action Surge, Dread Ambusher, and Crossbow Expert, you can take a total of 7 attacks.
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A lot of it is understanding the difference between "an attack" and "the attack action"
Extra attack says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Dread Ambusher states "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
Crossbow Expert says "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding."
If you do not use action surge you only take the attack action once although that action involves 2 attacks, therefore you get two attacks plus your dread ambusher attack. If you wish you can also use your bonus action to make an attack with a hand crossbow (assuming you attack action was using a one handed weapon) but this is not taking the attack action so dread ambusher does not apply
It gets a little more confusing when you thow in an action surge as the wording assumes you only have one action but I would rule and I think it is RAI that you make ONE additional weapon attack so if you use action surge (and use both actions to attack) dread ambusher only applies once though that is up to some DM interpretation. Therefore on the frst turn you get:
Thank you both for clearing that up. As I was re-reading the RAW text and looking at your replies it made so much more sense.
One of the easier things to look for is the difference between “an attack” and “the Attack action.” Since “Attack” is a proper name for that action, it should be capitalized according to the RAW of the English language. They did that most of the time.
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Dread Ambusher can trigger twice if you use Action Surge to take the Attack Action twice on your first turn. It is one of the reasons why a Gloomstalker Fighter is one of the more popular multiclasses that people take.
This means you can shoot 7 times on your first turn with Crossbow Expert at level 7 (Gloomstalker 5 Fighter 2) if you burn your Action Surge and shoot with your bonus action.
While Jegpeg would argue its only meant to trigger once, that is not the case at all as there would be wording to limit it to once per turn if that was the intention much like the wording that exists on the Samurai's level 15 ability: Rapid Strike.
The wording on extra attack is "Whenever you take the attack action" that is the wording used to make it clear it stacks with action Surge.
The wording on dread ambusher is "If you take 5he attack action on that turn" which at least to me implies you can do it once if you meet the criteria. I admit "As part of that action" muddies the waters as RAW was not considering action Surge as a possibility otherwise it would be worded either like Rapid Strike or Extra Attack. As it is it is a DM call.
Yes of course everything at your table is ultimately your DMs call. However this is the Rules and Mechanics section, our answers should be determined by RAW and not individual DM calls.
Lets look at the wording of the abilities I mentioned
Dread Ambusher
At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type.
Rapid Strike
Starting at 15th level, you learn to trade accuracy for swift strikes. If you take the Attack action on your turn and have advantage on an attack roll against against one of the targets, you can forgo the advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn.
Both abilities mention you can make an additional attack as part of the same action. However Rapid Strike has the additional restraint that you cannot do so more than once a turn.
Now your argument of Dread Ambusher was not considering Action Surge as a possibility is fairly weak. I mean these subclasses came out in Xanathar's not the PHB, so multiclassing will not be a new nor foreign idea to the design team. If they truly did not want Dread Ambusher to be stackable with Action Surge they would have added a once per turn trigger like you see on some other Ranger abilities.
I mean you can take a look at Monster Slayer which also came out in Xanathar's, Slayer's Prey is capped once per turn.
On the first turn of combat, a Gloomstalker 5 / Fighter 2 with Crossbow Expert gets 7 attacks;
Attack action: 3 attacks (2 Extra Attack + 1 Dreadful Ambusher)
Action Surge: 3 attacks (2 Extra Attack + 1 Dreadful Ambusher)
Bonus action: 1 attack (1 Crossbow Expert)
Either six or seven are both supported by the text, so it's DM's call
Dread Ambusher can be read as one extra attack per Attack action, or one extra attack total on a turn in which you take the Attack action (regardless of how many times you take it)
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To me nothing in the wording prevents you from using it more than once. You are enabled to use If you take the Attack action on that turn
If you have more than one way to interpret it, the most permissive one should take precedence.
It really isn't though.
If you take the attack action you get an additional attack as part of that action, so if you surge and take a second attack action then the criteria is met again and thus you get an additional attack once more.
The Devs also answered this in a Q&A Can you enlighten us on the Gloom Stalker’s “Dread Ambush” feature? (sageadvice.eu)
Nothing in the wording explicitly says you can use it more than once a turn either. "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action" is very much not "Make an additional weapon attack every time you take the Attack action"
JC's tweets might illustrate the RAI, but they don't impact RAW
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Or, you get the specified one (1) additional attack on a turn in which you took the Attack action. How many times you take the Attack action would be irrelevant to that interpretation
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean it's an absurd number either way, and a DM that's going to allow that multiclass combo might as well let the player go off for seven attacks in a turn because at that point LOL
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I totally understand why a DM would rule that Dread Ambusher only triggers once... it does say that you get "One" Attack when you use the Attack Action... I can see a DM saying "You got your One attack from the attack action, you don't get another one for taking the attack action again".
That said, it does stand out to me that Dread Ambusher doesn't include any text that says it only triggers once Per Turn, as most other similar abilities do. For example, the Hunter Subclass can get an additional attack under the right conditions, but it very overtly states that it's only once per turn. The Samurai's Rapid Strike also states that it can only be used once per turn. The fact that Dread Ambusher doesn't include that caveat leads me to believe that it was fully intended for the ability to stack with Action Surge.
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Functionally those two sentences are the same though, - if attack action -> make additional attack. The only limit to it that is has to be during the first turn of the combat.
The word IF does by condition.
Not sure what's absurd about it tbh. A fighter that surges and have an bonus action attack can do 3 attacks at lvl1-4, 5 attacks at lvl 5-10, 7 attacks at lvl 11-19 and 9 attacks at lvl 20. Making lots of attacks is what the fighter is about.
The fact that a class feature that is specifically meant to increase your number of attacks works really well when paired with the fighters class features shouldn't be a surprise to anyone tbh.