The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
It depends on the door. Combining the rules we have for various traps, you should generally work it this way:
Set a Perception DC to notice something unusual. This can be an automatic success if the something unusual is brutally obvious, like a magic circle on the floor (where the only real hurdle is working out what you're looking at).
If this was a sufficiently simple secret door, stop - the party has found the secret door. For a more well-hidden door, like in DMG traps, set an Investigation DC to figure out that they're looking at a door. For a magic door, you might have an Arcana check to work it out (e.g. if it's a programmed teleportation circle), or a Religion check (if it's divine magic), or a Nature check (if it's druidic/ranger/fey magic), or whatever.
However, the "secret door" could just be a permanent illusion of wall over a real door. There's no Perception DC there but also the door isn't automatically noticed - instead it's automatically not noticed, but if it's checked out anyway, Investigate can see through the illusion, or the PCs can touch the illusion to automatically see through it.
In terms of advice for the DM on which approach to choose, it depends on your PCs and what you're trying to hide:
The more you need to guarantee the PCs notice the door, the easier it has to be. The more it's just an optional reward (or punishment), the harder you can make it. Passing multiple medium checks is radically harder than passing one hard one.
Your choice should generally fit your setting - a Religion-check magic circle would be a pretty strange find in a Wizard academy without a specific story explanation, for example.
You want to make sure your PCs have fun, so you should either deliberately choose checks specific PCs are good at to try and reward them for being competent, or do the opposite to punish them for being incompetent - either way, the goal is to teach your PCs that their choices matter, including proficiency choices.
The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
1) People always take that quote out of context. Crawford is specifically talking about stealth. He never claims that passive perception is an absolute floor below which it is impossible to roll perception in all circumstances, which is how people tend to interpret him.
2) Yes, this. Opening it after finding it shouldn't be an additional challenge unless you actually want that added complexity.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Adventures usually uses Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check.
As DM how i run them will depend on their nature. If i determine there is a chance for it to be spot, i will use passive Perception, unless it's concealed and not detectable without research. If player search for one, i will ask for either an active Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check depending if they go about with senses or deduction.
Once a secret door is found, the way to open it may or may not be known. If it's not the case, then i will ask for either an active Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check to see if they find or otherwise deduce the way to open it.
The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
1) People always take that quote out of context. Crawford is specifically talking about stealth. He never claims that passive perception is an absolute floor below which it is impossible to roll perception in all circumstances, which is how people tend to interpret him.
2) Yes, this. Opening it after finding it shouldn't be an additional challenge unless you actually want that added complexity.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Re 1: actually there was an interview where he discussed this and actually does advise using the passive as a floor. I no longer have the link though, it was years ago. But this is why many interpret that way, is because he actually does mean using it as a floor.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
1) People always take that quote out of context. Crawford is specifically talking about stealth. He never claims that passive perception is an absolute floor below which it is impossible to roll perception in all circumstances, which is how people tend to interpret him.
2) Yes, this. Opening it after finding it shouldn't be an additional challenge unless you actually want that added complexity.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Re 1: actually there was an interview where he discussed this and actually does advise using the passive as a floor. I no longer have the link though, it was years ago. But this is why many interpret that way, is because he actually does mean using it as a floor.
If it's the interview that the OP actually linked, which is the only one I've ever seen anyone link, then no, it's very contextually specific to stealth. If there's a different interview somewhere, I'd definitely be interested in it, but the one that actually gets passed around commonly as a citation for this is specific to stealth.
I reckon that when I run a secret door, I will skip the middle-man. Unless the players do something to explicitly locate a door (EG, run their faces over the wall examining it for a crack) then they will notice the trigger, not the door. A good perception check shows that, for some reason, one of the torches has been nailed into the sconce instead of just resting on it, or the sconce is a little bit twisted. Twisting the sconce opens the secret door.
I feel like it's both less interesting and more time consuming to have them first discover the hidden door, and then have to try and discover how to open it. The first successful check should indicate a means to open the door, without first telling them that the door was there. I think that's more interesting to say "You notice the torch sconce is twisted, and there are scrape marks around it inscribing a semi-circle", leading them to twist the sconce and reveal the door as it opens, than "You notice a hidden door with no obvious way of opening it". You know their next step will be to try and open it, so might as well skip to the end!
The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
1) People always take that quote out of context. Crawford is specifically talking about stealth. He never claims that passive perception is an absolute floor below which it is impossible to roll perception in all circumstances, which is how people tend to interpret him.
2) Yes, this. Opening it after finding it shouldn't be an additional challenge unless you actually want that added complexity.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Re 1: actually there was an interview where he discussed this and actually does advise using the passive as a floor. I no longer have the link though, it was years ago. But this is why many interpret that way, is because he actually does mean using it as a floor.
If it's the interview that the OP actually linked, which is the only one I've ever seen anyone link, then no, it's very contextually specific to stealth. If there's a different interview somewhere, I'd definitely be interested in it, but the one that actually gets passed around commonly as a citation for this is specific to stealth.
No it was a different interview, specifically with Jeremy Crawford. And it was a video one.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Something I should have done before posting is take a look at all the published adventure/campaigns I own in DDB by searching for 'secret door'. Turns out I own a lot and there are many references to secret doors. Pretty much Perception is used consistently through the cases to find the secret door. Now it never states using Passive so I'm not sure if that is an assumption or not.
Passive would be useful if they're just hanging out in the room for a while. It is assumed to represent the collective average result if given enough attempts to casually just notice stuff, so if they hang out in the space, consult their passive scores. If they're simply moving through it quickly don't bother.
Edit: I tend to ask my players when they're looking for something if they're just moving through quickly, taking a moment to look around, or if they're tossing the place like the cops on a drug bust. That'll determine how to handle the rolls, and how long it takes.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Agreed. For me I don’t like it because players typically invest in Perception under the assumption that it’s the thing going to be used for searching. When it becomes investigation- like in some of the recently published modules- it is very frustrating.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Agreed. For me I don’t like it because players typically invest in Perception under the assumption that it’s the thing going to be used for searching. When it becomes investigation- like in some of the recently published modules- it is very frustrating.
I don't think I've ever understood why noticing a secret door is still included as a "challenge" in adventures. Maybe it made more sense when I was younger and had more time to burn, but now it just seems like... narratively speaking, why **wouldn't** you want the party to discover a secret door? I guess this opinion really only applies to secret doors that provide the only entry to a particular area. If there's a longer/more perilous way in, I don't have as much of a problem with it.
But ultimately, it just feels wasteful to have designed something that never gets revealed.
For me, there's no sense of accomplishment for ... having rolled high on a die. There's no agency to it. You either search for secret doors here and there (perhaps using contextual, educated guesses), but then by definition you'll miss out on any that don't follow whatever internal logic you're using to guide that decision.
The only way to solve that is to search for secret doors literally everywhere, always. But that's obviously tedious and boring.
And both options suffer from being tied to a wildly fluctuating range of success, both due to the d20's swingy-ness as well as varying DC's.
It all feels like a very empty action, as if, no matter what, my character is rewarded somewhat at random despite my best efforts. Maybe I need some caffeine to cheer up!
I don't think I've ever understood why noticing a secret door is still included as a "challenge" in adventures. Maybe it made more sense when I was younger and had more time to burn, but now it just seems like... narratively speaking, why **wouldn't** you want the party to discover a secret door? I guess this opinion really only applies to secret doors that provide the only entry to a particular area. If there's a longer/more perilous way in, I don't have as much of a problem with it.
Well many times a secret door leads to secondary area where there is short avoiding traps, treasure etc and other things not crucial to the adventure.
I am personally not fond of placing difficult secret door as primary passage to exit, enter or proceed further in, as the adventure suddenly hinges on 1-2 checks to continue.
Unless the DC is very high, usually secret doors are successfully dealt with when 4-5 characters can try a check for it though.
The Dungeon Master Guide also offer the following guidelines;
Secret Doors: A secret door is crafted to blend into the wall that surrounds it. Sometimes faint cracks in the wall or scuff marks on the floor betray the secret door’s presence.
Detecting a Secret Door: Use the characters’ passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to determine whether anyone in the party notices a secret door without actively searching for it. Characters can also find a secret door by actively searching the location where the door is hidden and succeeding on a Wisdom (Perception) check. To set an appropriate DC for the check, see chapter 8.
Opening a Secret Door: Once a secret door is detected, a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might be required to determine how to open it if the opening mechanism isn’t obvious. Set the DC according to the difficulty guidelines in see chapter 8.
If adventurers can’t determine how to open a secret door, breaking it down is always an option. Treat it as a locked door made of the same material as the surrounding wall, and use the guidelines in the Running the Game section to determine appropriate DCs or statistics.
The Dungeon Master Guide also offer the following guidelines;
Secret Doors: A secret door is crafted to blend into the wall that surrounds it. Sometimes faint cracks in the wall or scuff marks on the floor betray the secret door’s presence.
Detecting a Secret Door: Use the characters’ passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to determine whether anyone in the party notices a secret door without actively searching for it. Characters can also find a secret door by actively searching the location where the door is hidden and succeeding on a Wisdom (Perception) check. To set an appropriate DC for the check, see chapter 8.
Opening a Secret Door: Once a secret door is detected, a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might be required to determine how to open it if the opening mechanism isn’t obvious. Set the DC according to the difficulty guidelines in see chapter 8.
If adventurers can’t determine how to open a secret door, breaking it down is always an option. Treat it as a locked door made of the same material as the surrounding wall, and use the guidelines in the Running the Game section to determine appropriate DCs or statistics.
Thank you for finding that! I need to refresh my DMG memory as I cannot recall ever coming across that information before.
As a DM, you should never put the possibility of a game-stopping failure roll into a scenario. Don't make failure to detect or open doors the thing that brings your game to a screeching halt. Always give the players a creative way out or around.
That being said, if a door is secret/hidden, I don't really care what Jeremy Crawford has to say about much of anything. A PC must be *actively searching* for a secret door (or trap, etc) in order to detect/find it.
I use a WIS check to notice the signs of the door (a breeze, faint scratches, a discoloured wall panel), probably followed by an INT check to determine how to work the door.
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The pretty simple question looking to see how players/DMs run finding secret doors and their triggers to open them.
I've seen a few ways how they have been handled but not saying these are the best way of implementation.
1) Passive Perception, as Crawford has stated it is always on so walking down the hall someone could easily spot a secret door, without even indicating a search, if it is high enough to beat the DC. Not a huge fan of it because it feels like if you know the party is going to find the door where is the challenge let alone why have it in the dungeon.
2) Perception roll, using your senses you indicate you are searching for a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door but may not know how to open it. How to open it could be with an Investigation roll.
3) Investigation roll, you feel there is a secret door, and with a successful roll, you can find the door and know how to open it.
So how do you or your DM run secret doors?
Bonus Question: are scenarios with traps, floor/chest the same process?
It depends on the door. Combining the rules we have for various traps, you should generally work it this way:
However, the "secret door" could just be a permanent illusion of wall over a real door. There's no Perception DC there but also the door isn't automatically noticed - instead it's automatically not noticed, but if it's checked out anyway, Investigate can see through the illusion, or the PCs can touch the illusion to automatically see through it.
In terms of advice for the DM on which approach to choose, it depends on your PCs and what you're trying to hide:
1) People always take that quote out of context. Crawford is specifically talking about stealth. He never claims that passive perception is an absolute floor below which it is impossible to roll perception in all circumstances, which is how people tend to interpret him.
2) Yes, this. Opening it after finding it shouldn't be an additional challenge unless you actually want that added complexity.
3) People using "investigation" as "search" is a bit of a bugbear of mine, but I will not go into it.
Adventures usually uses Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check.
As DM how i run them will depend on their nature. If i determine there is a chance for it to be spot, i will use passive Perception, unless it's concealed and not detectable without research. If player search for one, i will ask for either an active Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check depending if they go about with senses or deduction.
Once a secret door is found, the way to open it may or may not be known. If it's not the case, then i will ask for either an active Perception (Wisdom) check or Intelligence (Investigation) check to see if they find or otherwise deduce the way to open it.
I've read a good article not long ago on it giving all sorts of good exemples on the type of doors, clues to reveal them or triggers to open if it may be of interest to you them. https://www.hipstersanddragons.com/secret-doors-and-passages/
Re 1: actually there was an interview where he discussed this and actually does advise using the passive as a floor. I no longer have the link though, it was years ago. But this is why many interpret that way, is because he actually does mean using it as a floor.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If it's the interview that the OP actually linked, which is the only one I've ever seen anyone link, then no, it's very contextually specific to stealth. If there's a different interview somewhere, I'd definitely be interested in it, but the one that actually gets passed around commonly as a citation for this is specific to stealth.
I reckon that when I run a secret door, I will skip the middle-man. Unless the players do something to explicitly locate a door (EG, run their faces over the wall examining it for a crack) then they will notice the trigger, not the door. A good perception check shows that, for some reason, one of the torches has been nailed into the sconce instead of just resting on it, or the sconce is a little bit twisted. Twisting the sconce opens the secret door.
I feel like it's both less interesting and more time consuming to have them first discover the hidden door, and then have to try and discover how to open it. The first successful check should indicate a means to open the door, without first telling them that the door was there. I think that's more interesting to say "You notice the torch sconce is twisted, and there are scrape marks around it inscribing a semi-circle", leading them to twist the sconce and reveal the door as it opens, than "You notice a hidden door with no obvious way of opening it". You know their next step will be to try and open it, so might as well skip to the end!
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No it was a different interview, specifically with Jeremy Crawford. And it was a video one.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
For me, if it's something you are aware of, you are investigating it. If it is something you are not yet aware of, you are attempting to perceive it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Something I should have done before posting is take a look at all the published adventure/campaigns I own in DDB by searching for 'secret door'. Turns out I own a lot and there are many references to secret doors. Pretty much Perception is used consistently through the cases to find the secret door. Now it never states using Passive so I'm not sure if that is an assumption or not.
Passive would be useful if they're just hanging out in the room for a while. It is assumed to represent the collective average result if given enough attempts to casually just notice stuff, so if they hang out in the space, consult their passive scores. If they're simply moving through it quickly don't bother.
Edit: I tend to ask my players when they're looking for something if they're just moving through quickly, taking a moment to look around, or if they're tossing the place like the cops on a drug bust. That'll determine how to handle the rolls, and how long it takes.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Agreed. For me I don’t like it because players typically invest in Perception under the assumption that it’s the thing going to be used for searching. When it becomes investigation- like in some of the recently published modules- it is very frustrating.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
Which modules are you referring to?
Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Candlekeep Mysteries
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
I don't think I've ever understood why noticing a secret door is still included as a "challenge" in adventures. Maybe it made more sense when I was younger and had more time to burn, but now it just seems like... narratively speaking, why **wouldn't** you want the party to discover a secret door? I guess this opinion really only applies to secret doors that provide the only entry to a particular area. If there's a longer/more perilous way in, I don't have as much of a problem with it.
But ultimately, it just feels wasteful to have designed something that never gets revealed.
For me, there's no sense of accomplishment for ... having rolled high on a die. There's no agency to it. You either search for secret doors here and there (perhaps using contextual, educated guesses), but then by definition you'll miss out on any that don't follow whatever internal logic you're using to guide that decision.
The only way to solve that is to search for secret doors literally everywhere, always. But that's obviously tedious and boring.
And both options suffer from being tied to a wildly fluctuating range of success, both due to the d20's swingy-ness as well as varying DC's.
It all feels like a very empty action, as if, no matter what, my character is rewarded somewhat at random despite my best efforts. Maybe I need some caffeine to cheer up!
Well many times a secret door leads to secondary area where there is short avoiding traps, treasure etc and other things not crucial to the adventure.
I am personally not fond of placing difficult secret door as primary passage to exit, enter or proceed further in, as the adventure suddenly hinges on 1-2 checks to continue.
Unless the DC is very high, usually secret doors are successfully dealt with when 4-5 characters can try a check for it though.
The Dungeon Master Guide also offer the following guidelines;
Thank you for finding that! I need to refresh my DMG memory as I cannot recall ever coming across that information before.
As a DM, you should never put the possibility of a game-stopping failure roll into a scenario. Don't make failure to detect or open doors the thing that brings your game to a screeching halt. Always give the players a creative way out or around.
That being said, if a door is secret/hidden, I don't really care what Jeremy Crawford has to say about much of anything. A PC must be *actively searching* for a secret door (or trap, etc) in order to detect/find it.
I use a WIS check to notice the signs of the door (a breeze, faint scratches, a discoloured wall panel), probably followed by an INT check to determine how to work the door.