No. Once advantage/disadvantage selects which die you use, you no longer have advantage/disadvantage
In the halfling luck example, the feature takes effect before adv/dis selects which die you use. With silvery barbs, the feature takes effect only when the triggering character no longer has adv/dis, so the "re-rolling with adv/dis" rules are a red herring.
This is not true. If the target is Paralyzed for example when the first roll is made, they are still paralyzed when the silvery Barbs roll is made. If the person attacking is poisoned when he makes the attack, he is still poisoned when he makes the reroll.
That is an entirely separate conversation that isn't related to anything else you've been saying. It's also a conversation that's already been had in this thread. This is a point on which I think TexasDevin and I disagree, but we at least reached a mutual understanding. I'm not going to retread it with you. You can read the rest of the thread if you want, though.
Where do the rules say it's part of the reroll. Quote it.
PHB page 173, the underlined and bolded words below are the exact same verbiage used in the Silvery Barbs spell -
"Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check or saving throw or attack roll. When that happens you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage. ..... When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such has the Halfling's Lucky trait, let's you reroll the d20 you can reroll only one of the dice."
Because I have quoted the rules verbatim that explain why it is not and you've argued it every time
Ok the paragraph you included is not "verbatim"
What I I want though is the actual part of the rules that say you do not use the both dice when the higher dice is replaced during a reroll.
Reroll the d20. Singular. One. It is not D20s, it is not dice. It's the D20. It is singular.
What I I want though is the actual part of the rules that say you do not use the both dice when the higher dice is replaced during a reroll.
...you can reroll only one of the dice.
* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
Silvery Barbs applies to the one die that succeeded.
You have to resolve the Advantage/Disadvantage to determine if the roll succeeds before Silvery Barbs can be cast. When Silvery Barbs is cast Advantage/Disadvantage is done. It's been resolved. The die that was "not used" doesn't matter to Silvery Barbs. Silvery Barbs only rerolls the die that was successful. You compare the successful D20 and the new D20 from the reroll. If you had Advantage and have the Sneak Attack feature it still applies because Silvery Barbs is a reroll, not Disadvantage, and the attack roll was made with Advantage.
How do you determine if a roll with Advantage/Disadvantage succeeds if you haven't resolved the Advantage/Disadvantage?
re·solve
/rəˈzälv/
Verb
1.
settle or find a solution to
In this context to "resolve" Advantage/Disadvantage means to "settle" it by determining which die of the two rolled is "used", see also: "kept", and which one is "not used", see also: "discarded".
I'm done arguing. [REDACTED]
Notes: Please keep comments respectful and constructive.
The only reason SB says “succeed” is to avoid abusing the spell. If In the Orc/Fighter example I used earlier, the orc rolled a 7 against an AC of 16 and SB didn’t require a success, you could cast it and give an ally advantage with no fear of the fighter being hit.
And would you use any ability to reroll if you don’t figure out if at least one die was beneficial to you? With maybe the exception of Elven Accuracy if both rolls are a hit you would reroll one to see if you get a crit. But otherwise, if you didn’t it figure out first you could be waistline a limited ability for nothing.
Any ability that forces a reroll basically says “not so fast, let’s look at that again” The “resolution” of Adv/Dis is paused and one die is rerolled. At least that is one interpretation.
I understand what you are saying and it is probably how I would rule it as a DM. But I can see the other side being ruled just as easily.
On the other hand, here the advantage / disadvantage has already been resolved when SB can be cast as a reaction. So that rule doesn't matter to figure this out either.
Yeah it was resolved, but casting Silvery Barbs undoes that and turns this into a reroll. The target still has advantage or disadvantage. Whatever caused that the first time it was "resolved" still exists and RAW it still has bearing on how it is "resolved" after Silvery Barrbs is cast.
Nothing suggests or implies that it doesn't, particularly when the specific wording in the Silvery Barbs spell ("the d20" and "must use the lower roll") is identical to the wording used in the section on advantage/disadvantage and nearly identical to that used in the Halfling Lucky trait respectively.
By common sense it's not as you say. Anyway, we will try to move forward. If it were as you say, and the advantage remains. How would you solve it? If you still have advantage, you choose the highter die. But SB tells you to choose the lower (obviously it is the lower of the reroll results, but since we are already in this nonsense, let's play). You roll two successes on your first roll. You roll a dice again. You get a failure. According to you, do you have to choose the other success since you have advantage? What is the use of reroll then? What you sure can't do is roll both dice again, as the rules specifically prevent it. And if what you propose is that you choose the lower of the three rolls, it still makes less sense. No, the only logical solution is that you first solve the advantage and, once solved, reroll the successful dice and choose the lowest result of the reroll.
On the other hand, here the advantage / disadvantage has already been resolved when SB can be cast as a reaction. So that rule doesn't matter to figure this out either.
Yeah it was resolved, but casting Silvery Barbs undoes that and turns this into a reroll. The target still has advantage or disadvantage. Whatever caused that the first time it was "resolved" still exists and RAW it still has bearing on how it is "resolved" after Silvery Barrbs is cast.
Nothing suggests or implies that it doesn't, particularly when the specific wording in the Silvery Barbs spell ("the d20" and "must use the lower roll") is identical to the wording used in the section on advantage/disadvantage and nearly identical to that used in the Halfling Lucky trait respectively.
By common sense it's not as you say. Anyway, we will try to move forward. If it were as you say, and the advantage remains. How would you solve it? If you still have advantage, you choose the highter die. But SB tells you to choose the lower (obviously it is the lower of the reroll results, but since we are already in this nonsense, let's play). You roll two successes on your first roll. You roll a dice again. You get a failure. According to you, do you have to choose the other success since you have advantage? What is the use of reroll then? What you sure can't do is roll both dice again, as the rules specifically prevent it. And if what you propose is that you choose the lower of the three rolls, it still makes less sense. No, the only logical solution is that you first solve the advantage and, once solved, reroll the successful dice and choose the lowest result of the reroll.
To the bolded, this is where you wouldn’t bother wasting a spell slot.
The only reason SB says “succeed” is to avoid abusing the spell. If In the Orc/Fighter example I used earlier, the orc rolled a 7 against an AC of 16 and SB didn’t require a success, you could cast it and give an ally advantage with no fear of the fighter being hit.
And would you use any ability to reroll if you don’t figure out if at least one die was beneficial to you? With maybe the exception of Elven Accuracy if both rolls are a hit you would reroll one to see if you get a crit. But otherwise, if you didn’t it figure out first you could be waistline a limited ability for nothing.
Any ability that forces a reroll basically says “not so fast, let’s look at that again” The “resolution” of Adv/Dis is paused and one die is rerolled. At least that is one interpretation.
I understand what you are saying and it is probably how I would rule it as a DM. But I can see the other side being ruled just as easily.
I'm not even sure what the "other side" is arguing. Lets use 13 (miss), 15 (hit), and a reroll of 17 (hit) as an example. Here's the list of all the possible misinterpretations I can think of:
1.) Are they trying to say that if you roll with Advantage a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you roll 17, you then take the 13 because it's the lowest?
That literally turns Advantage into "Super Disadvantage" for lack of an actual term. It should be the 15 because out of 15 and 17 the 15 is lower.
2.) Are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you reroll and you roll a 17, you then take the 17 because it's the highest and you were rolling with Advantage so Advantage still applies to the reroll?
That doesn't make sense because Silvery Barbs says to take the lower of the two dice.
3.) Or is it that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you hang on to the 13, reroll the 15 and roll a 17, you then compare the 13 and 17 taking the lower of the two?
This doesn't make sense because if you had used the 13 from advantage you would have missed anyway. The 13 actually reduces your chances of success to 0% if it was not high enough to hit thus making the reroll entirely pointless.
4.) Alternatively, you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you hang on to the 13, reroll the 15 and roll a 17, you then compare the 15 and 17 taking the 15 as it's the lower of the two, then compare the 13 and 15, taking the 15 because you had Advantage?
This doesn't make sense because you already know 15 hits. This gives you a 100% chance of success after the reroll and makes the Silvery Barbs reroll worthless if the target has Advantage.
5.) Or are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you keep the 15 but roll two new dice, because you had Advantage, taking the lowest of the three?
This doesn't make sense either due to the "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll the d20, you can reroll only one of the dice" rule. And again, because you cannot take a result above the 15 you already rolled this gives you "Super Disadvantage" because you now have two opportunities to roll lower than 15 and cannot take anything higher as you must "use the lower roll".
Let's use another example.
If you roll with Advantage a 3 and a 6 with a +6 bonus to your attack against AC12 you have to select the higher die due to having Advantage on the roll. This means you select the 6 and add your +6 bonus for a total of 12 which hits AC12. Only now can Silvery Barbs be cast. Advantage has been resolved prior to the casting of Silvery Barbs as you had to take the 6 in order to succeed else, with the 3, you would have missed, the success itself being the trigger required for Silvery Barbs to be cast.
Silvery Barbs is trying to turn that success (ie. the 6+6=12) into a possible failure by making you reroll that die, taking the lowest of the two. This means the best roll you can possibly get is 6 (plus bonuses) but you can roll lower and possibly fail instead of the success you already rolled. And before someone brings up "what about Sneak Attack" again, Sneak Attack would still apply as long as the reroll is a 6 or higher resulting in a hit because the attack roll was made with Advantage and Silvery Barbs rerolls one D20, it does not give Disadvantage.
Silvery Barbs essentially makes it so that the better you rolled to succeed, the higher the chances of obtaining a lower result are. The roll that succeeded is used as a ceiling, if you roll higher you use the roll that succeeded but if you roll lower you use the new roll.
Reroll the d20. Singular. One. It is not D20s, it is not dice. It's the D20. It is singular.
Ok, so you still did not bother to cite a reference page, but regardless, this is the exact same wording used in the halfling Lucky trait and in the PHB where it says you only replace 1 dice with the roll, not both if you have advantage. That same section where these exact words come from "reroll the d20" state to use the higher of the two dice if you have advantage
I did not ask for if you should only reroll one or two d20s, that is settled. I said I wanted the verbiage that one of the dice is discarded when you do a reroll with advnatage. I want the verbiage that says you no longer use the higher of the two dice after you cast Silvery Barbs. PLEASE POST THIS.
What I I want though is the actual part of the rules that say you do not use the both dice when the higher dice is replaced during a reroll.
...you can reroll only one of the dice.
I am talking about with advantage. I agree you nonly reroll one dice. You reroll the dice, if it is lower you replace the original roll and then you use the higher of the two dice.
Show me where it says you do not do the underlined part I underlined above, because the section of the PHB that says you "reroll the d20" says you do in fact use the higher of the 2 dice.
PHB page 173. Notice I am positing the actual place in the rules you can find this, I am quoting entire sections in context. You repeatedly refuse to do this, probably because no part of the rules actually support what you are saying.
* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
Silvery Barbs applies to the one die that succeeded.
Absolutely it changes that one die then you apply any modifiers or conditions to that die, including advanatage and resolve the success or failure of that roll gain.
Please show me where it says NOT to do what I underlined above.
You have to resolve the Advantage/Disadvantage to determine if the roll succeeds before Silvery Barbs can be cast. When Silvery
Absolutelty, you have to use Advantage/Disadvantage to determine if the roll succeeds. Th9is applies both to the first time you "determine if the roll succeeds" before you cast Sivler Barbs and the second time you "determine if the roll succeeds" aftee you cast Silvery babrs. The procedure you use to decide if the roll succeeds is not changed by Silvery Barbs. only one of the rolls is potentially chaged.
Please show me where in the rules it states that Silvery Barbs is different and advantage or disadvantage is no longer considered after you cast it IAW the directions noted on page 173 of the PHB. Please show me where you use a different method for resolving advantage or disadvantage when Silvery barbs is in play.
Barbs is cast Advantage/Disadvantage is done. It's been resolved.
The die that was "not used" doesn't matter to Silvery Barbs. Silvery Barbs only rerolls the die that was successful. You compare the successful D20 and the new D20 from the reroll. If you had Advantage and have the Sneak Attack feature it still applies because Silvery Barbs is a reroll, not Disadvantage, and the attack roll was made with Advantage.
How do you determine if a roll with Advantage/Disadvantage succeeds if you haven't resolved the Advantage/Disadvantage?
I never said you did not resolve the roll one time. Yes, yu resolved the roll with advantage/disadvantage and it suceeds.
Silvery babrs changes that suceess and makes you resolve it again. It is what the spell does. When you resolve it again with the reroll you again use advantage/disadvantage or anything else that applied at the time.
Silvery Babrs only replaces 1 die, but when you have advantage you take the higher of 2 dice, both the onel that was rerolled and the other one.
By common sense it's not as you say. Anyway, we will try to move forward. If it were as you say, and the advantage remains. How would you solve it? If you still have advantage, you choose the highter die. But SB tells you to choose the lower (obviously it is the lower of the reroll results, but since we are already in this nonsense, let's play).
I agree it is difficult to follow, but compare it to the Halfling Lucky trait which is the example in the PHB and uses the same wording "reroll the d20" and "must use the new roll"
It is not too difficult if you think it through:
1. You roll two dice and use the higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) to determine sucess/failure. We will say this is a n 18 and a 15. So the roll is an 18.
2. If an 18 succeeds you cast Silvery Barbs. That undoes the success and replaces the 18. Lets say you roll a 7
3. You replace the 18 with a 7 as you "must use the lower roll" . This wording is just like with halfling lucky you "must use the new roll" IAW Silvery Barbs you use the 7 to replace the 18 since it is lower. Key here is you must use the "lower roll" (SB) or "new roll" (Lucky) in place of the 18. It does not say you must use it to replace both rolls nor that you must use it in exclusion to determine sucess or failure. You must use it to replace the original die rolled. That an only that.
4. You now have a 7 and a 15. If the roll is with advantage you take the higher of the result - a 15 - to determine success failure. If a 15 is successful it is a success, if it is a failure it is a fail.
This is simple and straight forward.
You roll two successes on your first roll. You roll a dice again. You get a failure. According to you, do you have to choose the other success since you have advantage? What is the use of reroll then?
You use the higher die with advantage. Whether it is a success or not depends on the value of that die. After you reroll the original highest dice and replace it if the new roll is lower lower, at this point the higher of the two dice determine if it would still be a succes.
The use of the reroll is to replace the original die if it is lower. If the reroll is lower than the original roll that caused sucess it replaces that die. That is all it does. In the example I gave above if it was an 18 and a 15 and the reroll is lower than an 18 then it replaces the 18. If the 15 is still high enough to succeed it will still be a success.
RAW when you cast Silvery Barbs you don't know what the rolls are, all you know is it wI reas a sucess (or potentially a crit in the case of an attack). It is just like the shield spell in this respect. In the case of SB you try to make him fail, the DM potentially replaces a die and determines sucess again. SB does not change the methodology of determining sucess, it does not change any of the modifiers. All it does is replace one of the dice if the reroll is lower than that dice was originally.
What you sure can't do is roll both dice again, as the rules specifically prevent it. And if what you propose is that you choose the lower of the three rolls, it still makes less sense.
I did not say you reroll both dice and you do not choose the lower of three rolls (with advantage) either.
You chose the higher of the two dice. Depending on what you rolled with Silvery Barbs that could be the highest die in the initial roll (if it is lower than Silvery Barbs die), the lower die in the initial roll (if the Silvery Barbs roll is lower than this die) or the Silvery Barbs roll itself (if it falls in between the highest initial die and the lower initial die.)
ECMO3 please read the post I made immediately prior to that comment and tell me which of the scenarios you are proposing is the actual way of handling a Silvery Barbs reroll with Advantage/Disadvantage.
I would like to properly understand exactly what the intent of your suggested RAW method is. I'm not going to debate this with you any further, I'm just personally curious at this point.
The difference with halfling's luck is that with silvery barbs the advantage has already been resolved. That is, the trigger is that you have been successful. You can only have been successful, if the advantage / disavantage has been resolved. With halfling's luck nothing has been solved, since the trigger is that you roll a 1 on a die. So, you roll that die again, and resolve the advantage / disadvantage.
I'm not even sure what the "other side" is arguing. Are they trying to say that if you roll with Advantage a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you roll 17, you then take the 13 because it's the lowest? That literally turns Advantage into "Super Disadvantage" for lack of an actual term. It should be the 15 because out of 15 and 17 the 15 is lower.
No I am not saying that.
Are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll,you reroll and you roll a 17, you then take the 17 because it's the highest and you were rolling with Advantage so Advantage still applies to the reroll? That doesn't make sense because Silvery Barbs says to take the lowest of the two dice.
No I am not saying that either. You reroll the 15. 17 is higher than 15 and you must use the lowest die in the SB reroll, so it is a 15.
Or are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you keep the 15 but roll two new dice, because you had Advantage, taking the lowest of the three? This doesn't make sense either due to the "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll the d20, you can reroll only one of the dice" rule. And again, because you cannot take a result above the 15 you already rolled this gives you "Super Disadvantage" because you now have two opportunities to roll lower than 15 and cannot take anything higher because you must "use the lower roll".
No you only reroll 1 dice (the 15)
You are overcomplicating this. SB replaces a die if the new roll is lower, that is all it does on the reroll part of the spell.
With advantage you roll a 13 and a 15.
If 15 is high enough to succeed and Silvery Barbs is cast you reroll the die that is a 15, and only this die. You "must use the lower roll" so if the new roll is lower than 15 it replaces the 15.
In the case you describe you reroll a 17. 17 is higher than a 15 so you "must use the lower roll" which is a 15.
You take the 15 and the 13 and use the highest die to determine sucess. So the result is a 15. If a 15 was high enough to be a success the first time then it still is high enough barring anything else like shield coming into play. SB had no effect in this example.
If you had rerolled lower than a 15 then SB would have changed the result. If you rolled a 14 on the reroll the result would have been the higher of 14 or 13 which is 14 so the roll to a 14. If you rolled a 10 on the reroll the result would be the higher of 10 or 13 which is 13.
The only time SB does not change the value of the roll is if you roll higher on the reroll.
Let's use another example. If you roll with Advantage a 3 and a 6 with a +6 bonus to your attack against AC12 you have to select the higher die due to having Advantage on the roll. This means you select the 6 and add your +6 bonus for a total of 12 which hits AC12. Only now can Silvery Barbs be cast. Advantage has been resolved prior to the casting of Silvery Barbs as you had to take the 6 in order to succeed, the success itself being the trigger required for Silvery Barbs to be cast. Silvery Barbs is trying to turn that success (ie. the 6+6=12) into a possible failure by making you reroll that die, taking the lowest of the two. This means the best roll you can possible get is 6 (plus bonuses) but you can roll lower and possibly fail instead of the success you already rolled. And before someone brings up "what about Sneak Attack" again, Sneak Attack would still apply as long as the reroll hits because the attack roll was made with Advantage and Silvery Barbs rerolls one D20, it does not give Disadvantage.
I agree with all this, the highest you can get is a 6. If you roll between a 7 and a 20 on the reroll then you "must use the lower roll" so that is a 6. You compare 6 and 3 and use the higher die which is 6.
What you did not post though is if you roll lower than a 6.
A. For example you roll a 5 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 5, now you have a 5 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die which is a 5. 5+6=11, it is a miss against AC 12.
B. Another example, you roll a natural 1 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 1. Now you have a 1 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die, which is a 3. 3+6=9 , it is a miss against AC12.
HOWEVER the lowest you can get in this example is a 3 (3+6=9), regardless of what the reroll is, because with advantage you use the higher die and if the reroll is lower than 3, then 3 will be the higher die.
I agree with all this, the highest you can get is a 6. If you roll between a 7 and a 20 on the reroll then you "must use the lower roll" so that is a 6. You compare 6 and 3 and use the higher die which is 6.
What you did not post though is if you roll lower than a 6.
A. For example you roll a 5 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 5, now you have a 5 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die which is a 5. 5+6=11, it is a miss against AC 12.
B. Another example, you roll a natural 1 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 1. Now you have a 1 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die, which is a 3. 3+6=9 , it is a miss against AC12.
HOWEVER the lowest you can get in this example is a 3 (3+6=9), regardless of what the reroll is, because with advantage you use the higher die and if the reroll is lower than 3, then 3 will be the higher die.
So what you're saying is that if you roll an 18 and a 17 with your Advantage against AC 12 and then roll a 3 on the reroll you have a 100% chance of still hitting the target because the 3 replaces the 18 but 17 is higher than 3? That really makes Silvery Barbs a much worse spell than it should be because the reroll only has value against an Advantage roll where one of the two original dice is not a success.
But at least I now understand your interpretation. Thank you for the clarification.
The difference with halfling's luck is that with silvery barbs the advantage has already been resolved. That is, the trigger is that you have been successful. You can only have been successful, if the advantage / disavantage has been resolved.\
But the spell undoes this result. It is no longer successful once you cast Silvery Barbs. You have to recalculate sucess or failure. That is the whole point of the spell.
When you do that recalculation you use everything that existed in the original roll. You use the same AC, if the target has cover he still has cover, if it was a contested ability check against a passive ability (like hide) and the other member has advantage/disadvantage he still has a +5/-5. Similarly if the target has advantage, he still has advantage. The situation that caused advantage/disadvantage still exists and still needs to be considered like all these other factors.
In this case, the reroll only affects one of the two dice that were cast. You potentially replace that one die, but not the other one.
So what you're saying is that if you roll an 18 and a 17 with your Advantage against AC 12 and then roll a 3 on the reroll you have a 100% chance of still hitting the target because the 3 replaces the 18 but 17 is higher than 3? That really makes Silvery Barbs a much worse spell than it should be because the reroll only has value against an Advantage roll where one of the two original dice is not a success.
Yes. Keep in mind the same thing happens with shield or defensive duelist or the War Mage ability. If I roll an 18 when I need a 6 to hit and someone casts shield or either of these other two reactions there is still a 100% chance of hitting. So this zero chance of success is not really different than a lot of other reactions.
It does make it less statistically powerful, particularly when the DC is low and keeps it from essentially canceling things like magic resistance. I do not think it is less powerful than it is supposed to be, I fully believe this is how it is intended to work.
Even with this it is still a very versatile spell with a lot of potential uses.
So what you're saying is that if you roll an 18 and a 17 with your Advantage against AC 12 and then roll a 3 on the reroll you have a 100% chance of still hitting the target because the 3 replaces the 18 but 17 is higher than 3? That really makes Silvery Barbs a much worse spell than it should be because the reroll only has value against an Advantage roll where one of the two original dice is not a success.
Yes. Keep in mind the same thing happens with shield or defensive duelist or the War Mage ability. If I roll an 18 when I need a 6 to hit and someone casts shield or either of these other two reactions there is still a 100% chance of hitting. So this zero chance of success is not really different than a lot of other reactions.
It does make it less statistically powerful, particularly when the DC is low and keeps it from essentially canceling things like magic resistance. I do not think it is less powerful than it is supposed to be, I fully believe this is how it is intended to work.
Even with this it is still a very versatile spell with a lot of potential uses.
But Shield or Defensive Duelist are not a reroll. With Advantage and Silvery Barbs you've already gleaned the benefit of your Advantage roll which may be the only reason the attack hit to begin with thus even allowing the enemy to use a spell slot to cast Silvery Barbs at all. You're essentially double-dipping into your Advantage and benefitting from it twice.
Let's separate the rolls to illustrate the issue:
First D20 -> 6 // Second D20 -> 18 // Reroll D20 -> 12
Without Advantage the 6 would have missed. Silvery Barbs couldn't be cast.
With Advantage the 18 hits. Silvery Barbs is cast, consuming an enemy's spell slot.
If the Reroll 12 takes the place of the 18 then, your way, you are comparing the 6 and 12 and using your Advantage a second time to, again, use the higher roll.
The first use of Advantage made the enemy use its spell slot. The second use of Advantage causes the attack to still hit.
I appreciate your explanation but still disagree with your interpretation.
But Shield or Defensive Duelist are not a reroll. With Advantage and Silvery Barbs you've already gleaned the benefit of your Advantage roll which may be the only reason the attack hit to begin with thus even allowing the enemy to use a spell slot to cast Silvery Barbs at all. You're essentially double-dipping into your Advantage and benefitting from it twice.
I appreciate your explanation but still disagree with your interpretation.
Unless both rolls are the same (say double 18s) Silvery Barbs can always lower the value of a roll with advantage and it always will if the reroll is lower than the original highest roll. In that respect the new result is never better than the old result. It might still be a success, but it would be with a lower number (assuming the reroll was lower than the original high roll).
Also if advantage is the only reason you hit to begin with, then Silvery Barbs will cause a miss if the reroll is low enough. This is like the 6 and 3 example you posted.
You glean the effect of your advantage every time you roll it, just like any other buff you have. I could see this interpretation if it was a 1-time effect. For example the attack came after a guiding bolt spell. I suppose in this example you could say "this only affects one roll so you should not get it more than once". I do not think this is correct, but I do understand that logic. On the other hand the guy you targeted is attacking a prone opponent, he is still prone, he should get advantage every time he rolls against him.
On the other hand the guy you targeted is attacking a prone opponent, he is still prone, he should get advantage every time he rolls against him.
The attack roll against the target has Advantage, this is what let you hit. The reroll is not another attack roll, it's part of the same attack for which you have already used the Advantage to hit, therefore you shouldn't get Advantage again.
I'm going to bow out of this discussion, though, since I work tonight and need to go sleep. Have a wonderful day! :)
Edit: After thinking about this some more I now understand where your reasoning is coming from and can make it make sense. I don't personally agree with the interpretation but I do understand it. I hate when game stuff isn't worded well, it leads to these sorts of disagreements.
I agree with all this, the highest you can get is a 6. If you roll between a 7 and a 20 on the reroll then you "must use the lower roll" so that is a 6. You compare 6 and 3 and use the higher die which is 6.
What you did not post though is if you roll lower than a 6.
A. For example you roll a 5 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 5, now you have a 5 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die which is a 5. 5+6=11, it is a miss against AC 12.
B. Another example, you roll a natural 1 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 1. Now you have a 1 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die, which is a 3. 3+6=9 , it is a miss against AC12.
HOWEVER the lowest you can get in this example is a 3 (3+6=9), regardless of what the reroll is, because with advantage you use the higher die and if the reroll is lower than 3, then 3 will be the higher die.
So what you're saying is that if you roll an 18 and a 17 with your Advantage against AC 12 and then roll a 3 on the reroll you have a 100% chance of still hitting the target because the 3 replaces the 18 but 17 is higher than 3? That really makes Silvery Barbs a much worse spell than it should be because the reroll only has value against an Advantage roll where one of the two original dice is not a success.
But at least I now understand your interpretation. Thank you for the clarification.
If both of the original numbers would be a success then there is no point in casting SB
That is an entirely separate conversation that isn't related to anything else you've been saying. It's also a conversation that's already been had in this thread. This is a point on which I think TexasDevin and I disagree, but we at least reached a mutual understanding. I'm not going to retread it with you. You can read the rest of the thread if you want, though.
Reroll the d20 . Singular. One.
It is not D20s, it is not dice. It's the D20. It is singular.
Silvery Barbs applies to the one die that succeeded.
You have to resolve the Advantage/Disadvantage to determine if the roll succeeds before Silvery Barbs can be cast. When Silvery Barbs is cast Advantage/Disadvantage is done. It's been resolved. The die that was "not used" doesn't matter to Silvery Barbs. Silvery Barbs only rerolls the die that was successful. You compare the successful D20 and the new D20 from the reroll. If you had Advantage and have the Sneak Attack feature it still applies because Silvery Barbs is a reroll, not Disadvantage, and the attack roll was made with Advantage.
How do you determine if a roll with Advantage/Disadvantage succeeds if you haven't resolved the Advantage/Disadvantage?
In this context to "resolve" Advantage/Disadvantage means to "settle" it by determining which die of the two rolled is "used", see also: "kept", and which one is "not used", see also: "discarded".
I'm done arguing. [REDACTED]
The only reason SB says “succeed” is to avoid abusing the spell. If In the Orc/Fighter example I used earlier, the orc rolled a 7 against an AC of 16 and SB didn’t require a success, you could cast it and give an ally advantage with no fear of the fighter being hit.
And would you use any ability to reroll if you don’t figure out if at least one die was beneficial to you? With maybe the exception of Elven Accuracy if both rolls are a hit you would reroll one to see if you get a crit. But otherwise, if you didn’t it figure out first you could be waistline a limited ability for nothing.
Any ability that forces a reroll basically says “not so fast, let’s look at that again” The “resolution” of Adv/Dis is paused and one die is rerolled. At least that is one interpretation.
I understand what you are saying and it is probably how I would rule it as a DM. But I can see the other side being ruled just as easily.
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By common sense it's not as you say. Anyway, we will try to move forward.
If it were as you say, and the advantage remains. How would you solve it? If you still have advantage, you choose the highter die. But SB tells you to choose the lower (obviously it is the lower of the reroll results, but since we are already in this nonsense, let's play).
You roll two successes on your first roll. You roll a dice again. You get a failure. According to you, do you have to choose the other success since you have advantage? What is the use of reroll then?
What you sure can't do is roll both dice again, as the rules specifically prevent it.
And if what you propose is that you choose the lower of the three rolls, it still makes less sense.
No, the only logical solution is that you first solve the advantage and, once solved, reroll the successful dice and choose the lowest result of the reroll.
To the bolded, this is where you wouldn’t bother wasting a spell slot.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I'm not even sure what the "other side" is arguing. Lets use 13 (miss), 15 (hit), and a reroll of 17 (hit) as an example. Here's the list of all the possible misinterpretations I can think of:
1.) Are they trying to say that if you roll with Advantage a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you roll 17, you then take the 13 because it's the lowest?
That literally turns Advantage into "Super Disadvantage" for lack of an actual term. It should be the 15 because out of 15 and 17 the 15 is lower.
2.) Are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you reroll and you roll a 17, you then take the 17 because it's the highest and you were rolling with Advantage so Advantage still applies to the reroll?
That doesn't make sense because Silvery Barbs says to take the lower of the two dice.
3.) Or is it that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you hang on to the 13, reroll the 15 and roll a 17, you then compare the 13 and 17 taking the lower of the two?
This doesn't make sense because if you had used the 13 from advantage you would have missed anyway. The 13 actually reduces your chances of success to 0% if it was not high enough to hit thus making the reroll entirely pointless.
4.) Alternatively, you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll, you hang on to the 13, reroll the 15 and roll a 17, you then compare the 15 and 17 taking the 15 as it's the lower of the two, then compare the 13 and 15, taking the 15 because you had Advantage?
This doesn't make sense because you already know 15 hits. This gives you a 100% chance of success after the reroll and makes the Silvery Barbs reroll worthless if the target has Advantage.
5.) Or are they saying that you roll a 13 and a 15, take the 15, then Silvery Barbs forces a reroll and you keep the 15 but roll two new dice, because you had Advantage, taking the lowest of the three?
This doesn't make sense either due to the "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll the d20, you can reroll only one of the dice" rule. And again, because you cannot take a result above the 15 you already rolled this gives you "Super Disadvantage" because you now have two opportunities to roll lower than 15 and cannot take anything higher as you must "use the lower roll".
Let's use another example.
If you roll with Advantage a 3 and a 6 with a +6 bonus to your attack against AC12 you have to select the higher die due to having Advantage on the roll. This means you select the 6 and add your +6 bonus for a total of 12 which hits AC12. Only now can Silvery Barbs be cast. Advantage has been resolved prior to the casting of Silvery Barbs as you had to take the 6 in order to succeed else, with the 3, you would have missed, the success itself being the trigger required for Silvery Barbs to be cast.
Silvery Barbs is trying to turn that success (ie. the 6+6=12) into a possible failure by making you reroll that die, taking the lowest of the two. This means the best roll you can possibly get is 6 (plus bonuses) but you can roll lower and possibly fail instead of the success you already rolled. And before someone brings up "what about Sneak Attack" again, Sneak Attack would still apply as long as the reroll is a 6 or higher resulting in a hit because the attack roll was made with Advantage and Silvery Barbs rerolls one D20, it does not give Disadvantage.
Silvery Barbs essentially makes it so that the better you rolled to succeed, the higher the chances of obtaining a lower result are. The roll that succeeded is used as a ceiling, if you roll higher you use the roll that succeeded but if you roll lower you use the new roll.
Ok, so you still did not bother to cite a reference page, but regardless, this is the exact same wording used in the halfling Lucky trait and in the PHB where it says you only replace 1 dice with the roll, not both if you have advantage. That same section where these exact words come from "reroll the d20" state to use the higher of the two dice if you have advantage
I did not ask for if you should only reroll one or two d20s, that is settled. I said I wanted the verbiage that one of the dice is discarded when you do a reroll with advnatage. I want the verbiage that says you no longer use the higher of the two dice after you cast Silvery Barbs. PLEASE POST THIS.
I am talking about with advantage. I agree you nonly reroll one dice. You reroll the dice, if it is lower you replace the original roll and then you use the higher of the two dice.
Show me where it says you do not do the underlined part I underlined above, because the section of the PHB that says you "reroll the d20" says you do in fact use the higher of the 2 dice.
PHB page 173. Notice I am positing the actual place in the rules you can find this, I am quoting entire sections in context. You repeatedly refuse to do this, probably because no part of the rules actually support what you are saying.
Absolutely it changes that one die then you apply any modifiers or conditions to that die, including advanatage and resolve the success or failure of that roll gain.
Please show me where it says NOT to do what I underlined above.
Absolutelty, you have to use Advantage/Disadvantage to determine if the roll succeeds. Th9is applies both to the first time you "determine if the roll succeeds" before you cast Sivler Barbs and the second time you "determine if the roll succeeds" aftee you cast Silvery babrs. The procedure you use to decide if the roll succeeds is not changed by Silvery Barbs. only one of the rolls is potentially chaged.
Please show me where in the rules it states that Silvery Barbs is different and advantage or disadvantage is no longer considered after you cast it IAW the directions noted on page 173 of the PHB. Please show me where you use a different method for resolving advantage or disadvantage when Silvery barbs is in play.
I never said you did not resolve the roll one time. Yes, yu resolved the roll with advantage/disadvantage and it suceeds.
Silvery babrs changes that suceess and makes you resolve it again. It is what the spell does. When you resolve it again with the reroll you again use advantage/disadvantage or anything else that applied at the time.
Silvery Babrs only replaces 1 die, but when you have advantage you take the higher of 2 dice, both the onel that was rerolled and the other one.
I agree it is difficult to follow, but compare it to the Halfling Lucky trait which is the example in the PHB and uses the same wording "reroll the d20" and "must use the new roll"
It is not too difficult if you think it through:
1. You roll two dice and use the higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) to determine sucess/failure. We will say this is a n 18 and a 15. So the roll is an 18.
2. If an 18 succeeds you cast Silvery Barbs. That undoes the success and replaces the 18. Lets say you roll a 7
3. You replace the 18 with a 7 as you "must use the lower roll" . This wording is just like with halfling lucky you "must use the new roll" IAW Silvery Barbs you use the 7 to replace the 18 since it is lower. Key here is you must use the "lower roll" (SB) or "new roll" (Lucky) in place of the 18. It does not say you must use it to replace both rolls nor that you must use it in exclusion to determine sucess or failure. You must use it to replace the original die rolled. That an only that.
4. You now have a 7 and a 15. If the roll is with advantage you take the higher of the result - a 15 - to determine success failure. If a 15 is successful it is a success, if it is a failure it is a fail.
This is simple and straight forward.
You use the higher die with advantage. Whether it is a success or not depends on the value of that die. After you reroll the original highest dice and replace it if the new roll is lower lower, at this point the higher of the two dice determine if it would still be a succes.
The use of the reroll is to replace the original die if it is lower. If the reroll is lower than the original roll that caused sucess it replaces that die. That is all it does. In the example I gave above if it was an 18 and a 15 and the reroll is lower than an 18 then it replaces the 18. If the 15 is still high enough to succeed it will still be a success.
RAW when you cast Silvery Barbs you don't know what the rolls are, all you know is it wI reas a sucess (or potentially a crit in the case of an attack). It is just like the shield spell in this respect. In the case of SB you try to make him fail, the DM potentially replaces a die and determines sucess again. SB does not change the methodology of determining sucess, it does not change any of the modifiers. All it does is replace one of the dice if the reroll is lower than that dice was originally.
I did not say you reroll both dice and you do not choose the lower of three rolls (with advantage) either.
You chose the higher of the two dice. Depending on what you rolled with Silvery Barbs that could be the highest die in the initial roll (if it is lower than Silvery Barbs die), the lower die in the initial roll (if the Silvery Barbs roll is lower than this die) or the Silvery Barbs roll itself (if it falls in between the highest initial die and the lower initial die.)
ECMO3 please read the post I made immediately prior to that comment and tell me which of the scenarios you are proposing is the actual way of handling a Silvery Barbs reroll with Advantage/Disadvantage.
I would like to properly understand exactly what the intent of your suggested RAW method is. I'm not going to debate this with you any further, I'm just personally curious at this point.
The difference with halfling's luck is that with silvery barbs the advantage has already been resolved. That is, the trigger is that you have been successful. You can only have been successful, if the advantage / disavantage has been resolved.
With halfling's luck nothing has been solved, since the trigger is that you roll a 1 on a die. So, you roll that die again, and resolve the advantage / disadvantage.
No I am not saying that.
No I am not saying that either. You reroll the 15. 17 is higher than 15 and you must use the lowest die in the SB reroll, so it is a 15.
No you only reroll 1 dice (the 15)
You are overcomplicating this. SB replaces a die if the new roll is lower, that is all it does on the reroll part of the spell.
With advantage you roll a 13 and a 15.
If 15 is high enough to succeed and Silvery Barbs is cast you reroll the die that is a 15, and only this die. You "must use the lower roll" so if the new roll is lower than 15 it replaces the 15.
In the case you describe you reroll a 17. 17 is higher than a 15 so you "must use the lower roll" which is a 15.
You take the 15 and the 13 and use the highest die to determine sucess. So the result is a 15. If a 15 was high enough to be a success the first time then it still is high enough barring anything else like shield coming into play. SB had no effect in this example.
If you had rerolled lower than a 15 then SB would have changed the result. If you rolled a 14 on the reroll the result would have been the higher of 14 or 13 which is 14 so the roll to a 14. If you rolled a 10 on the reroll the result would be the higher of 10 or 13 which is 13.
The only time SB does not change the value of the roll is if you roll higher on the reroll.
I agree with all this, the highest you can get is a 6. If you roll between a 7 and a 20 on the reroll then you "must use the lower roll" so that is a 6. You compare 6 and 3 and use the higher die which is 6.
What you did not post though is if you roll lower than a 6.
A. For example you roll a 5 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 5, now you have a 5 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die which is a 5. 5+6=11, it is a miss against AC 12.
B. Another example, you roll a natural 1 on the reroll - You "must use the lower roll" so you replace the 6 with a 1. Now you have a 1 and a 3. With advantage you use the higher die, which is a 3. 3+6=9 , it is a miss against AC12.
HOWEVER the lowest you can get in this example is a 3 (3+6=9), regardless of what the reroll is, because with advantage you use the higher die and if the reroll is lower than 3, then 3 will be the higher die.
So what you're saying is that if you roll an 18 and a 17 with your Advantage against AC 12 and then roll a 3 on the reroll you have a 100% chance of still hitting the target because the 3 replaces the 18 but 17 is higher than 3? That really makes Silvery Barbs a much worse spell than it should be because the reroll only has value against an Advantage roll where one of the two original dice is not a success.
But at least I now understand your interpretation. Thank you for the clarification.
But the spell undoes this result. It is no longer successful once you cast Silvery Barbs. You have to recalculate sucess or failure. That is the whole point of the spell.
When you do that recalculation you use everything that existed in the original roll. You use the same AC, if the target has cover he still has cover, if it was a contested ability check against a passive ability (like hide) and the other member has advantage/disadvantage he still has a +5/-5. Similarly if the target has advantage, he still has advantage. The situation that caused advantage/disadvantage still exists and still needs to be considered like all these other factors.
In this case, the reroll only affects one of the two dice that were cast. You potentially replace that one die, but not the other one.
This is true if you know what the rolls were and if you know what the target number for success.
RAW you should not know either of these things.
Yes. Keep in mind the same thing happens with shield or defensive duelist or the War Mage ability. If I roll an 18 when I need a 6 to hit and someone casts shield or either of these other two reactions there is still a 100% chance of hitting. So this zero chance of success is not really different than a lot of other reactions.
It does make it less statistically powerful, particularly when the DC is low and keeps it from essentially canceling things like magic resistance. I do not think it is less powerful than it is supposed to be, I fully believe this is how it is intended to work.
Even with this it is still a very versatile spell with a lot of potential uses.
But Shield or Defensive Duelist are not a reroll. With Advantage and Silvery Barbs you've already gleaned the benefit of your Advantage roll which may be the only reason the attack hit to begin with thus even allowing the enemy to use a spell slot to cast Silvery Barbs at all. You're essentially double-dipping into your Advantage and benefitting from it twice.
Let's separate the rolls to illustrate the issue:
I appreciate your explanation but still disagree with your interpretation.
Unless both rolls are the same (say double 18s) Silvery Barbs can always lower the value of a roll with advantage and it always will if the reroll is lower than the original highest roll. In that respect the new result is never better than the old result. It might still be a success, but it would be with a lower number (assuming the reroll was lower than the original high roll).
Also if advantage is the only reason you hit to begin with, then Silvery Barbs will cause a miss if the reroll is low enough. This is like the 6 and 3 example you posted.
You glean the effect of your advantage every time you roll it, just like any other buff you have. I could see this interpretation if it was a 1-time effect. For example the attack came after a guiding bolt spell. I suppose in this example you could say "this only affects one roll so you should not get it more than once". I do not think this is correct, but I do understand that logic. On the other hand the guy you targeted is attacking a prone opponent, he is still prone, he should get advantage every time he rolls against him.
The attack roll against the target has Advantage, this is what let you hit. The reroll is not another attack roll, it's part of the same attack for which you have already used the Advantage to hit, therefore you shouldn't get Advantage again.
I'm going to bow out of this discussion, though, since I work tonight and need to go sleep. Have a wonderful day! :)
Edit: After thinking about this some more I now understand where your reasoning is coming from and can make it make sense. I don't personally agree with the interpretation but I do understand it. I hate when game stuff isn't worded well, it leads to these sorts of disagreements.
If both of the original numbers would be a success then there is no point in casting SB
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I hope for some sort of clarification on this....
Overall the spell seems to cause a lot of weird interactions that didn't exist before