Hey I never said it was a goodidea to reroll a unsuccessful roll, just that it's RAW.
No, this is RAW.
Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?
No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance.No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
And Silvery Barbs can only affect a successful roll.
A little clarification on this. There it does not say that you cannot cast SB, but the result is still a success even if you cast it. The trigger is fulfilled (a successful roll), so it can be casted.
Aye, you are correct. It can be cast in response to LR but it does not change the result of LR.
No rule tells you that if you get a symbol like this: 1, it means that the result is one. These rulers are full of holes.
The "rules are full of holes" is fundamentally different than suggesting that the rules are not the rules.
The rules are a reroll replaces one of the two dice and you use the higher of the two dice. That is RAW. You can dance around it all you want, but that is what the rules say.
You do not compare the unused die from Advantage/Disadvantage to the Silvery Barbs rerolled die. You are the one that is finding this bizarre meaning in the language, I am changing nothing.
Yes you do, because the rules say you do.
ou compare the die that triggered the success to the new D20. The other die from Advantage/Disadvantage is already unused because the die that triggered the success was selected and the other die is no longer relevant to the situation.
It is a reroll, plain and simple. With advantage, you compare the die that triggered the success and then replace it if the new result is lower and then determine sucess or failure based on the higher of the two dice (replaced and not replaced)
Please provide any rules in any published material that indicate you calculate a reroll any different than this.
PHB page 173.
If you roll with Advantage a 15 and a 6 you "use" the 15. At this point Advantage has been resolved
Please provide a reference in the rules stating it has "been resolved"
According to RAW a "reroll" is not "resolved" until you replace the original roll with the new roll and compare both dice and "use" the higher result.
PHB page 173.
The only dice compared after Silvery Barbs are the "used" die from determined through resolving the Advantage and the new D20 roll forced by Silvery Barbs, "using" the lowest of these two.
Please provide a reference where the rules say you now ignore one of the two dice when you cast Silvery Barbs.
Anyone can get up and say "this is how it works", but that is not RAW unless you can point to actual published rules that say that.
Advantage/disadvantage is not resolved when you pick the used die despite what it may seem
Advantage/disadvantage does more than just provide a single die. If it were resolved when a attack is hit, then features like Sneak Attack would never function, as your advantage would be "resolved" by the time you started rolling damage.
Yes, it is.
Sneak it attack is allowed when an attack that had Advantage hits the target.
But your whole argument is that after a "success" advantage is no longer applicable.
If I am a Rogue with advantage and I roll two dice and I hit - you are saying at this point it is resolved. It is no longer advantage. I have discarded the dice. That is over.
Sneak attack applies to an attack that has advantage,
Just like sneak attack applies to an "attack that has advantage", comparing two dice and using the higher also applies to an "attack that has advantage".
Advantage/disadvantage is not resolved when you pick the used die despite what it may seem
Advantage/disadvantage does more than just provide a single die. If it were resolved when a attack is hit, then features like Sneak Attack would never function, as your advantage would be "resolved" by the time you started rolling damage.
Yes, it is.
Sneak it attack is allowed when an attack that had Advantage hits the target.
But your whole argument is that after a "success" advantage is no longer applicable.
If I am a Rogue with advantage and I roll two dice and I hit - you are saying at this point it is resolved. It is no longer advantage. I have discarded the dice. That is over.
All this happens BEFORE I roll damage.
Sneak attack only requires that the attack roll be made with Advantage.
You have to use BOTH rules. A reroll is being forced on a roll that had Advantage/Disadvantage meaning you reroll only one of the dice but Silvery Barbs requires the condition when a target succeeds meaning you have to first resolve Advantage/Disadvantage so you know that the target succeeds.\
This argument is so silly. Yes it suceeded on the first roll, but the whole idea of Silvery Barbs is to try to turn a success into a fail.
This arguement, that it already succeeded is just stupid. If it succeeded and can't be changed then the SB reroll is irrelevant. I roll a 20, you cast silvery barbs. I reroll a 1. It doesn't matter it already succeeded! That is really the logic of your argument.
The very idea of a reroll against an enemy strongly implies that the original attack/check/save succeeded and you are going to attempt to change that. Otherwise why would you have him reroll? The whole point of the spell is to change a success into potentially a failure and you use the same math to do that as you did in the initial roll.
You use the same AC, you use the same attack bonus, you use the same modifiers for cover, you use the same modifiers for shield or haste or shield of faith or any other spell that is active AND YOU USE THE SAME MODIFIERS FOR ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE.
It is that simple!
If I am attempting a reroll against someone who has cast shield, he still has a +5 to AC right? But if I am attempting a reroll against someone who is invisible all of a sudden disadvantage no longer applies?
You have to use BOTH rules. A reroll is being forced on a roll that had Advantage/Disadvantage meaning you reroll only one of the dice but Silvery Barbs requires the condition when a target succeeds meaning you have to first resolve Advantage/Disadvantage so you know that the target succeeds.\
This argument is so silly. Yes it suceeded on the first roll, but the whole idea of Silvery Barbs is to try to make it fail.
This arguement, that it already succeeded is just stupid. If it succeeded and can't be changed then the SB reroll is irrelevant. I roll a 20, you cast silvery barbs. I reroll a 1. It doesn't matter it already succeeded.
The very idea of a reroll against an enemey strongly implies that the attack/check/save succeeded, otherwise why would you have him reroll? The whole point of the spell is to change a success into potentially a failure and you use the same math to do that as you did in the initial roll.
You use the same AC, you use the same attack bonus, you use the same modifiers for cover, you use the same modifiers for shield or haste or shield of faith or any other spell AND YOU USE THE SAME MODIFIERS FOR ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE.
It is that simple!
Yes, you try to make it fail by forcing a reroll of the die roll that succeeded, possibly making it fail.
What you have been disagreeing with this entire time is with regards to the other result from Advantage/Disadvantage. The one that was not "used" and is therefore not part of the reroll.
Yes, you try to make it fail by forcing a reroll of the die roll that succeeded, possibly making it fail.
What you have been disagreeing with this entire time is with regards to the other result from Advantage/Disadvantage. The one that was not "used" and is therefore not part of the reroll.
Except the rules say it is part of the reroll. Only you and others on this thread are saying it isn't, without offering any reference to back up your claim
As I posted above - If I am attempting a reroll against someone who has cast shield, he still has a +5 to AC right? Or for that matter if it is a contested check against a passive ability, the +5 for "advantage" still applies right? But if I am attempting a reroll against someone while invisible all of a sudden advantage no longer applies?
Is that really your argument?
I am still waiting for someone, ANYONE to provide one reference in the actual rules that supports this interpretation.
So this made me think of something esle. We can agree if we have advantage before the reroll, then we still have advantage after it right? After all as you said above sneak attack still applies. So if I am going to take your interpretation, wouldn't I add 5 to the roll?
For example with advantage I roll a 4 and a 15 and I hit with the 15. Since discarding is in vogue now, I discard the 4 and you cast Silvery Barbs. I reroll a 13. I take the lower roll between 13 and 15 and it is a 13. So shouldn't I use 18 (13+5) to resolve the actual attack roll instead of 13? After all we both agree the attacker still does have "advantage", so if we are only using one dice should it now be +5 (even though he rolled lower originally). So silvery barbs resulted in a roll that was 2 points lower but a result that was 3 points higher?
Like I said it the whole argument is just silly! Play the game using RAW as it was designed.
Where do the rules say it's part of the reroll. Quote it.
Because I have quoted the rules verbatim that explain why it is not and you've argued it every time.
You are rolling two D20 for Advantage/Disadvantage. You are then "using" the one that applies for which situation it is, Advantage or Disadvantage. When Silvery Barbs is cast you then reroll the die that was "used" and take the lowest of the die that was rerolled and the new D20 that Silvery Barbs made you roll.
For example with advantage I roll a 4 and a 15 and I hit with the 15. Since discarding is in vogue now, I discard the 4 and you cast Silvery Barbs. I reroll a 13. I take the lower roll between 13 and 15 and it is a 13. So shouldn't I use 18 (13+5) to resolve the actual attack roll instead of 13? After all we both agree the attacker still does have "advantage", so if we are only using one dice should it now be +5 (even though he rolled lower originally). So silvery barbs resulted in a roll that was 2 points lower but a result that was 3 points higher?
You are clearly misunderstanding something. I never said you don't apply your bonuses to your roll I said only that you reroll the die that was "used."
Of course you apply your bleedin' bonuses after selecting the die, it's a dang attack roll! The same goes if it's used on an ability check or a saving throw. Your bonuses still apply. You just don't include the die roll from Advantage/Disadvantage that was "not used" (see also: discarded) in the Silvery Barbs "and take the lowest of the two" step.
I have only ever been talking about which of the 2 dice from Advantage/Disadvantage apply after the point where the "used" die is rerolled. In other words, you roll two D20, pick the one that is "used", apply your dang bonuses to determine if it succeeds or not, then roll the one that was "used" and the new one, ignoring the die from the first two D20 you rolled that was "not used", pick the new die that is "used" as per Silvery Barbs, and finally apply your bonuses to determine whether or not it succeeds.
Never did I mention not applying your bonuses, I simply didn't mention applying your bonuses because I thought it went without saying. I stopped at the point where you have selected the final die in the Silvery Barbs process, the next step is to add your gosh darned bonuses. Heck, you have to apply your bonuses to the Advantage/Disadvantage roll to determine if the roll succeeded or not! I am legitimately flabbergasted right now.
To summarize the point I've been making this whole time: Silvery Barbs does not turn Advantage into Super Disadvantage (ie. Disadvantage using 3 dice instead of 2). That's it. That's all I've been saying.
The rules are a reroll replaces one of the two dice and you use the higher of the two dice. That is RAW. You can dance around it all you want, but that is what the rules say.
If you have advantage, you roll a second die, and use the greater of the two results. This is when the action succeeds or fails, and when, if successful, you can cast SB. Then SB forces you to repeat that die (not the other, which no longer matters). That die is the highest if you have advantage, obviously, since that's what the rules say. And the lower if you have disavantage. In no case can you repeat the other die, as it does not make any sense.
That other die doesn't matter anymore. Although the rules do not say it specifically, it is implicit that it is discarded. Well, you could put it in a display case if you want, and leave it there as a trophy. Or destroy it with a flamethrower. Or, more logically, put it aside to use it again. In any case, the result of that other die no longer matters in the game. You have already chosen the highest (or the lowest as the case may be), and that is your roll.
I was originally on the side of resolve advantage/disadvantage then apply Silvery Barbs to that one die. But now I'm on the fence and can see how it can be interpreted both ways.
Example: If an Orc is attacking the Fighter in your party and the Fighter has an AC of 16 and the Orc has advantage and rolls an 18 and a 19. Do you cast Silvery Barbs? Or any ability that allows a reroll?
Silvery Barbs: First, the description of the spell only takes into account the target of the spell is rolling only one d20. The spell says You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll thed20 and use the lower roll.So, one d20, reroll it and use the lower roll.
Advantage/Disadvantage: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game ... lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. I cut the part about halfling luck.
Silvery Barbs tells you to reroll THE d20 (the one that succeeded because that's the trigger) and use the lower roll. BUT, this is a reaction spell, which interrupts the resolution process. If it was resolved, and the roll succeeded, then the only thing left to do is roll damage, if it was an attack, or resolve the save/check. SB does not reverse time. It distracts and interrupts. The rules for advantage/disadvantage say specifically that if you have "something in the game" (Silvery Barbs) that "lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice" So by the rules BOTH die are still present when you use your "something" to reroll. If it was resolved and you forget about the second die roll why would it say you choose one of the dice? Shouldn't there be only one? You have to consider both dice when deciding to use any ability, spell, etc... to reroll. If both rolls were a miss, in the Orc/Fighter example above, would you even use ANY ability to reroll? Unless you really hate your fighter and want them to get hit, I guess.
Advantage and Disadvantage rules tell you to choose only one of the dice so both must be active when deciding to reroll. And Silvery Barbs tells you which one you reroll, the one that succeeded (edit: basically it's making the choice for you between the two die), because that is the trigger of the reaction. So both dice are active, you reroll the successful one and use the lower roll. Now you have two rolls (the die you didn't reroll, and the result of the die you did reroll) and you use advantage or disadvantage to determine which of those two rolls you use.
I can see it being interpreted both ways, so I'm not saying my version here is the definitive "right" or RAW answer.
I was originally on the side of resolve advantage/disadvantage then apply Silvery Barbs to that one die. But now I'm on the fence and can see how it can be interpreted both ways.
Example: If an Orc is attacking the Fighter in your party and the Fighter has an AC of 16 and the Orc has advantage and rolls an 18 and a 19. Do you cast Silvery Barbs? Or any ability that allows a reroll?
Silvery Barbs: First, the description of the spell only takes into account the target of the spell is rolling only one d20. The spell says You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll thed20 and use the lower roll.So, one d20, reroll it and use the lower roll.
Advantage/Disadvantage: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game ... lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. I cut the part about halfling luck.
Silvery Barbs tells you to reroll THE d20 (the one that succeeded because that's the trigger) and use the lower roll. BUT, this is a reaction spell, which interrupts the resolution process. If it was resolved, and the roll succeeded, then the only thing left to do is roll damage, if it was an attack, or resolve the save/check. SB does not reverse time. It distracts and interrupts. The rules for advantage/disadvantage say specifically that if you have "something in the game" (Silvery Barbs) that "lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice" So by the rules BOTH die are still present when you use your "something" to reroll. If it was resolved and you forget about the second die roll why would it say you choose one of the dice? Shouldn't there be only one? You have to consider both dice when deciding to use any ability, spell, etc... to reroll. If both rolls were a miss, in the Orc/Fighter example above, would you even use ANY ability to reroll? Unless you really hate your fighter and want them to get hit, I guess.
Advantage and Disadvantage rules tell you to choose only one of the dice so both must be active when deciding to reroll. And Silvery Barbs tells you which one you reroll, the one that succeeded (edit: basically it's making the choice for you between the two die), because that is the trigger of the reaction. So both dice are active, you reroll the successful one and use the lower roll. Now you have two rolls (the die you didn't reroll, and the result of the die you did reroll) and you use advantage or disadvantage to determine which of those two rolls you use.
I can see it being interpreted both ways, so I'm not saying my version here is the definitive "right" or RAW answer.
No. Once advantage/disadvantage selects which die you use, you no longer have advantage/disadvantage. In the halfling luck example, the feature takes effect before adv/dis selects which die you use. With silvery barbs, the feature takes effect only when the triggering character no longer has adv/dis, so the "re-rolling with adv/dis" rules are a red herring.
What that rule is telling you is: if something allows you to reroll, and you have rolled with advantage (or disadvantage), you only roll with one die. It could be written better, it is true, but in no way is it telling you that the two dice are still active or anything like that. In other words, a reroll is never done with an advantage or a disadvantage. You simply roll one of the dices again (the lowest if you rolled with disadvantage, the highest if you rolled with advantage). The other die no longer matters.
On the other hand, here the advantage / disadvantage has already been resolved when SB can be cast as a reaction. So that rule doesn't matter to figure this out either.
What that rule is telling you is: if something allows you to reroll, and you have rolled with advantage (or disadvantage), you only roll with one die. It could be written better, it is true, but in no way is it telling you that the two dice are still active or anything like that.
The rule in no way is telling never tells you that only one of the dice is active either. That is just people here making that up.
If the adversary had advantage before the reroll, he still has it now. If he is attacking someone paralyzed for exampe, he absolutely has advantage. Nothing in silvery Barbs cancels that. How do you suggest we account for it if not using the higher of two dice.?
In other words, a reroll is never done with an advantage or a disadvantage.
There is literally a paragraph in the PHB devoted to how to do a reroll with advantage or disadvantage. You are actually claiming that something that is "never done" has a section in the PHB describing how to do it.
The paragraph starts off "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game .... lets you reroll the d20"
Are you really suggesting they put an entire paragraph in the PHB to describe something that is "never done?
The other die no longer matters.
I have asked over and over again for people that believe this to post where in the rules it actually says this and no one has. They keep saying this is true but can provide NOTHING to support this statement.
Where do the rules say it's part of the reroll. Quote it.
PHB page 173, the underlined and bolded words below are the exact same verbiage used in the Silvery Barbs spell -
"Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check or saving throw or attack roll. When that happens you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage. ..... When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such has the Halfling's Lucky trait, let's you reroll the d20 you can reroll only one of the dice."
Because I have quoted the rules verbatim that explain why it is not and you've argued it every time
Ok the paragraph you included is not "verbatim"
What I I want though is the actual part of the rules that say you do not use the both dice when the higher dice is replaced during a reroll.
Or I could go with something that says advantage or disadvantage no longer apply when Silvery Barbs is cast.
The verbiage you listed is paraphrased from the Silvery Barbs spell. It is similar to the halfling Lucky trait used as an example. If you actually use the verbatim wording from Silvery Barbs you will note that it is almost identical to the wording from the Halfling Lucky trait.
You are clearly misunderstanding something. I never said you don't apply your bonuses to your roll I said only that you reroll the die that was "used."
Of course you apply your bleedin' bonuses after selecting the die, it's a dang attack roll
So you apply bonuses, including passive bonuses for advantage or disadvantage. But you do not apply advantage or disadvantage as it is normally applied? That makes no sense and would lead to statistical inconsistencies in resolving SB when used on ability scores depending on if it was active or passive contest.
The same goes if it's used on an ability check or a saving throw. Your bonuses still apply. You just don't include the die roll from Advantage/Disadvantage that was "not used" (see also: discarded) in the Silvery Barbs "and take the lowest of the two" step.
This is what I want you to quote in the rules, with the page number and the exact wording, saying that one of the other dice is discarded and not used after you cast Silvery Barbs. I would also like you to compare the wording in the Silvery Barbs spell to the rule when you cite it.
To summarize the point I've been making this whole time: Silvery Barbs does not turn Advantage into Super Disadvantage (ie. Disadvantage using 3 dice instead of 2). That's it. That's all I've been saying.
I never said it turned it into super disadvantage. If you cast Silvery Barbs with advantage the end result will never be any higher than the highest of the first two dice rolled. Never. The only time it turns it into "super disadvantage" is if you already had disadvantage when you cast it.
Silvery Barbs is a reroll, it is not like the lucky feat that is a roll done by another player.
Silvery Barbs only replaces one of the two dice though and you need both dice (the original lower, and the lower of SB or the higher) to resolve the outcome with advantage or disadvantage. This does not turn advantage into disadvantage at all, advantage is still in play and Silvery Barbs only replaces one dice. There are two dice you determine sucdess or failure from. One of them is potentially replaced by Silvery Barbs.
On the other hand, here the advantage / disadvantage has already been resolved when SB can be cast as a reaction. So that rule doesn't matter to figure this out either.
Yeah it was resolved, but casting Silvery Barbs undoes that and turns this into a reroll. The target still has advantage or disadvantage. Whatever caused that the first time it was "resolved" still exists and RAW it still has bearing on how it is "resolved" after Silvery Barrbs is cast.
Nothing suggests or implies that it doesn't, particularly when the specific wording in the Silvery Barbs spell ("the d20" and "must use the lower roll") is identical to the wording used in the section on advantage/disadvantage and nearly identical to that used in the Halfling Lucky trait respectively.
No. Once advantage/disadvantage selects which die you use, you no longer have advantage/disadvantage
In the halfling luck example, the feature takes effect before adv/dis selects which die you use. With silvery barbs, the feature takes effect only when the triggering character no longer has adv/dis, so the "re-rolling with adv/dis" rules are a red herring.
This is not true. If the target is Paralyzed for example when the first roll is made, they are still paralyzed when the silvery Barbs roll is made. If the person attacking is poisoned when he makes the attack, he is still poisoned when he makes the reroll.
If a Rogue for example is hidden and attacks a target he has advantage on the attack. If he hits and someone uses silvery barbs he still has advantage and if it is still a hit after Silvery barbs he would still get Sneak Attack damage. If this were true and he no longer had advantage he would not get sneak attack damage even if the roll still hit after casting Silvery Barbs.
There would be a really odd use of it if this was the case - A Rogue who has disadvantage can not get sneak attack damage even if he has an ally in within 5 feet. If you could make the disadvantage no longer apply you could cast Silvery Barbs on your own party Rogue when he hits with disadvantage. You could cast it and make him roll again to hit but if it canceled the disadvantage, he would actually land his sneak attack dice if he hit on the reroll and had an ally threatening.
Nothing suggests or implies this interpretation at all and I think that would create a ton of circumstances and consequences that are not intended.
The only time it actually cancels one of these is if the person who you give advantage to as part of the second part of the spell has disadvantage - for example if you give advantage to an ally that is frightened, his next attack roll or ability check would not be at disadvantage like it otherwise would be, it would be a flat roll.
Aye, you are correct. It can be cast in response to LR but it does not change the result of LR.
The "rules are full of holes" is fundamentally different than suggesting that the rules are not the rules.
The rules are a reroll replaces one of the two dice and you use the higher of the two dice. That is RAW. You can dance around it all you want, but that is what the rules say.
Yes you do, because the rules say you do.
It is a reroll, plain and simple. With advantage, you compare the die that triggered the success and then replace it if the new result is lower and then determine sucess or failure based on the higher of the two dice (replaced and not replaced)
Please provide any rules in any published material that indicate you calculate a reroll any different than this.
PHB page 173.
Please provide a reference in the rules stating it has "been resolved"
According to RAW a "reroll" is not "resolved" until you replace the original roll with the new roll and compare both dice and "use" the higher result.
PHB page 173.
Please provide a reference where the rules say you now ignore one of the two dice when you cast Silvery Barbs.
Anyone can get up and say "this is how it works", but that is not RAW unless you can point to actual published rules that say that.
But your whole argument is that after a "success" advantage is no longer applicable.
If I am a Rogue with advantage and I roll two dice and I hit - you are saying at this point it is resolved. It is no longer advantage. I have discarded the dice. That is over.
All this happens BEFORE I roll damage.
Just like sneak attack applies to an "attack that has advantage", comparing two dice and using the higher also applies to an "attack that has advantage".
Sneak attack only requires that the attack roll be made with Advantage.
THIS!
Quote it. Sage Advice said nothing of the sort about Silvery Barbs. The only errata is in regards to Legendary Resistance.
This argument is so silly. Yes it suceeded on the first roll, but the whole idea of Silvery Barbs is to try to turn a success into a fail.
This arguement, that it already succeeded is just stupid. If it succeeded and can't be changed then the SB reroll is irrelevant. I roll a 20, you cast silvery barbs. I reroll a 1. It doesn't matter it already succeeded! That is really the logic of your argument.
The very idea of a reroll against an enemy strongly implies that the original attack/check/save succeeded and you are going to attempt to change that. Otherwise why would you have him reroll? The whole point of the spell is to change a success into potentially a failure and you use the same math to do that as you did in the initial roll.
You use the same AC, you use the same attack bonus, you use the same modifiers for cover, you use the same modifiers for shield or haste or shield of faith or any other spell that is active AND YOU USE THE SAME MODIFIERS FOR ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE.
It is that simple!
If I am attempting a reroll against someone who has cast shield, he still has a +5 to AC right? But if I am attempting a reroll against someone who is invisible all of a sudden disadvantage no longer applies?
That is just silly!
Yes, you try to make it fail by forcing a reroll of the die roll that succeeded, possibly making it fail.
What you have been disagreeing with this entire time is with regards to the other result from Advantage/Disadvantage. The one that was not "used" and is therefore not part of the reroll.
Except the rules say it is part of the reroll. Only you and others on this thread are saying it isn't, without offering any reference to back up your claim
As I posted above - If I am attempting a reroll against someone who has cast shield, he still has a +5 to AC right? Or for that matter if it is a contested check against a passive ability, the +5 for "advantage" still applies right? But if I am attempting a reroll against someone while invisible all of a sudden advantage no longer applies?
Is that really your argument?
I am still waiting for someone, ANYONE to provide one reference in the actual rules that supports this interpretation.
So this made me think of something esle. We can agree if we have advantage before the reroll, then we still have advantage after it right? After all as you said above sneak attack still applies. So if I am going to take your interpretation, wouldn't I add 5 to the roll?
For example with advantage I roll a 4 and a 15 and I hit with the 15. Since discarding is in vogue now, I discard the 4 and you cast Silvery Barbs. I reroll a 13. I take the lower roll between 13 and 15 and it is a 13. So shouldn't I use 18 (13+5) to resolve the actual attack roll instead of 13? After all we both agree the attacker still does have "advantage", so if we are only using one dice should it now be +5 (even though he rolled lower originally). So silvery barbs resulted in a roll that was 2 points lower but a result that was 3 points higher?
Like I said it the whole argument is just silly! Play the game using RAW as it was designed.
Where do the rules say it's part of the reroll. Quote it.
Because I have quoted the rules verbatim that explain why it is not and you've argued it every time.
You are rolling two D20 for Advantage/Disadvantage. You are then "using" the one that applies for which situation it is, Advantage or Disadvantage. When Silvery Barbs is cast you then reroll the die that was "used" and take the lowest of the die that was rerolled and the new D20 that Silvery Barbs made you roll.
You are clearly misunderstanding something. I never said you don't apply your bonuses to your roll I said only that you reroll the die that was "used."
Of course you apply your bleedin' bonuses after selecting the die, it's a dang attack roll! The same goes if it's used on an ability check or a saving throw. Your bonuses still apply. You just don't include the die roll from Advantage/Disadvantage that was "not used" (see also: discarded) in the Silvery Barbs "and take the lowest of the two" step.
I have only ever been talking about which of the 2 dice from Advantage/Disadvantage apply after the point where the "used" die is rerolled. In other words, you roll two D20, pick the one that is "used", apply your dang bonuses to determine if it succeeds or not, then roll the one that was "used" and the new one, ignoring the die from the first two D20 you rolled that was "not used", pick the new die that is "used" as per Silvery Barbs, and finally apply your bonuses to determine whether or not it succeeds.
Never did I mention not applying your bonuses, I simply didn't mention applying your bonuses because I thought it went without saying. I stopped at the point where you have selected the final die in the Silvery Barbs process, the next step is to add your gosh darned bonuses. Heck, you have to apply your bonuses to the Advantage/Disadvantage roll to determine if the roll succeeded or not! I am legitimately flabbergasted right now.
To summarize the point I've been making this whole time: Silvery Barbs does not turn Advantage into Super Disadvantage (ie. Disadvantage using 3 dice instead of 2). That's it. That's all I've been saying.
If you have advantage, you roll a second die, and use the greater of the two results. This is when the action succeeds or fails, and when, if successful, you can cast SB. Then SB forces you to repeat that die (not the other, which no longer matters). That die is the highest if you have advantage, obviously, since that's what the rules say. And the lower if you have disavantage. In no case can you repeat the other die, as it does not make any sense.
That other die doesn't matter anymore. Although the rules do not say it specifically, it is implicit that it is discarded. Well, you could put it in a display case if you want, and leave it there as a trophy. Or destroy it with a flamethrower. Or, more logically, put it aside to use it again. In any case, the result of that other die no longer matters in the game. You have already chosen the highest (or the lowest as the case may be), and that is your roll.
Ok, so I'm just going to jump in here.
I was originally on the side of resolve advantage/disadvantage then apply Silvery Barbs to that one die. But now I'm on the fence and can see how it can be interpreted both ways.
Example: If an Orc is attacking the Fighter in your party and the Fighter has an AC of 16 and the Orc has advantage and rolls an 18 and a 19. Do you cast Silvery Barbs? Or any ability that allows a reroll?
Silvery Barbs: First, the description of the spell only takes into account the target of the spell is rolling only one d20. The spell says You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. So, one d20, reroll it and use the lower roll.
Advantage/Disadvantage: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game ... lets you reroll or replace the d20![]()
, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. I cut the part about halfling luck.
Silvery Barbs tells you to reroll THE d20 (the one that succeeded because that's the trigger) and use the lower roll. BUT, this is a reaction spell, which interrupts the resolution process. If it was resolved, and the roll succeeded, then the only thing left to do is roll damage, if it was an attack, or resolve the save/check. SB does not reverse time. It distracts and interrupts. The rules for advantage/disadvantage say specifically that if you have "something in the game" (Silvery Barbs) that "lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice" So by the rules BOTH die are still present when you use your "something" to reroll. If it was resolved and you forget about the second die roll why would it say you choose one of the dice? Shouldn't there be only one? You have to consider both dice when deciding to use any ability, spell, etc... to reroll. If both rolls were a miss, in the Orc/Fighter example above, would you even use ANY ability to reroll? Unless you really hate your fighter and want them to get hit, I guess.
Advantage and Disadvantage rules tell you to choose only one of the dice so both must be active when deciding to reroll. And Silvery Barbs tells you which one you reroll, the one that succeeded (edit: basically it's making the choice for you between the two die), because that is the trigger of the reaction. So both dice are active, you reroll the successful one and use the lower roll. Now you have two rolls (the die you didn't reroll, and the result of the die you did reroll) and you use advantage or disadvantage to determine which of those two rolls you use.
I can see it being interpreted both ways, so I'm not saying my version here is the definitive "right" or RAW answer.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
No. Once advantage/disadvantage selects which die you use, you no longer have advantage/disadvantage. In the halfling luck example, the feature takes effect before adv/dis selects which die you use. With silvery barbs, the feature takes effect only when the triggering character no longer has adv/dis, so the "re-rolling with adv/dis" rules are a red herring.
What that rule is telling you is: if something allows you to reroll, and you have rolled with advantage (or disadvantage), you only roll with one die. It could be written better, it is true, but in no way is it telling you that the two dice are still active or anything like that.
In other words, a reroll is never done with an advantage or a disadvantage. You simply roll one of the dices again (the lowest if you rolled with disadvantage, the highest if you rolled with advantage). The other die no longer matters.
On the other hand, here the advantage / disadvantage has already been resolved when SB can be cast as a reaction. So that rule doesn't matter to figure this out either.
The rule in no way is telling never tells you that only one of the dice is active either. That is just people here making that up.
If the adversary had advantage before the reroll, he still has it now. If he is attacking someone paralyzed for exampe, he absolutely has advantage. Nothing in silvery Barbs cancels that. How do you suggest we account for it if not using the higher of two dice.?
There is literally a paragraph in the PHB devoted to how to do a reroll with advantage or disadvantage. You are actually claiming that something that is "never done" has a section in the PHB describing how to do it.
The paragraph starts off "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game .... lets you reroll the d20"
Are you really suggesting they put an entire paragraph in the PHB to describe something that is "never done?
I have asked over and over again for people that believe this to post where in the rules it actually says this and no one has. They keep saying this is true but can provide NOTHING to support this statement.
PHB page 173, the underlined and bolded words below are the exact same verbiage used in the Silvery Barbs spell -
"Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check or saving throw or attack roll. When that happens you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage. ..... When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such has the Halfling's Lucky trait, let's you reroll the d20 you can reroll only one of the dice."
Ok the paragraph you included is not "verbatim"
What I I want though is the actual part of the rules that say you do not use the both dice when the higher dice is replaced during a reroll.
Or I could go with something that says advantage or disadvantage no longer apply when Silvery Barbs is cast.
The verbiage you listed is paraphrased from the Silvery Barbs spell. It is similar to the halfling Lucky trait used as an example. If you actually use the verbatim wording from Silvery Barbs you will note that it is almost identical to the wording from the Halfling Lucky trait.
So you apply bonuses, including passive bonuses for advantage or disadvantage. But you do not apply advantage or disadvantage as it is normally applied? That makes no sense and would lead to statistical inconsistencies in resolving SB when used on ability scores depending on if it was active or passive contest.
This is what I want you to quote in the rules, with the page number and the exact wording, saying that one of the other dice is discarded and not used after you cast Silvery Barbs. I would also like you to compare the wording in the Silvery Barbs spell to the rule when you cite it.
I never said it turned it into super disadvantage. If you cast Silvery Barbs with advantage the end result will never be any higher than the highest of the first two dice rolled. Never. The only time it turns it into "super disadvantage" is if you already had disadvantage when you cast it.
Silvery Barbs is a reroll, it is not like the lucky feat that is a roll done by another player.
Silvery Barbs only replaces one of the two dice though and you need both dice (the original lower, and the lower of SB or the higher) to resolve the outcome with advantage or disadvantage. This does not turn advantage into disadvantage at all, advantage is still in play and Silvery Barbs only replaces one dice. There are two dice you determine sucdess or failure from. One of them is potentially replaced by Silvery Barbs.
Yeah it was resolved, but casting Silvery Barbs undoes that and turns this into a reroll. The target still has advantage or disadvantage. Whatever caused that the first time it was "resolved" still exists and RAW it still has bearing on how it is "resolved" after Silvery Barrbs is cast.
Nothing suggests or implies that it doesn't, particularly when the specific wording in the Silvery Barbs spell ("the d20" and "must use the lower roll") is identical to the wording used in the section on advantage/disadvantage and nearly identical to that used in the Halfling Lucky trait respectively.
This is not true. If the target is Paralyzed for example when the first roll is made, they are still paralyzed when the silvery Barbs roll is made. If the person attacking is poisoned when he makes the attack, he is still poisoned when he makes the reroll.
If a Rogue for example is hidden and attacks a target he has advantage on the attack. If he hits and someone uses silvery barbs he still has advantage and if it is still a hit after Silvery barbs he would still get Sneak Attack damage. If this were true and he no longer had advantage he would not get sneak attack damage even if the roll still hit after casting Silvery Barbs.
There would be a really odd use of it if this was the case - A Rogue who has disadvantage can not get sneak attack damage even if he has an ally in within 5 feet. If you could make the disadvantage no longer apply you could cast Silvery Barbs on your own party Rogue when he hits with disadvantage. You could cast it and make him roll again to hit but if it canceled the disadvantage, he would actually land his sneak attack dice if he hit on the reroll and had an ally threatening.
Nothing suggests or implies this interpretation at all and I think that would create a ton of circumstances and consequences that are not intended.
The only time it actually cancels one of these is if the person who you give advantage to as part of the second part of the spell has disadvantage - for example if you give advantage to an ally that is frightened, his next attack roll or ability check would not be at disadvantage like it otherwise would be, it would be a flat roll.