Since most of what you say is in support of my idea, I agree with most of it.
Although, you have made some good points as to why it wouldn't work I have yet to see you post reason why it would work.
Also, somewhere in your 3rd point you mention different kinds of ice not existing on earth.
I have never played a D&D game on the world of earth setting or a D&D character from earth. I prefer fantasy world settings.
The Fly spell just didn't pop into existence one day. In every setting it had to be originally researched, many different aspects such as how things float on the air, how birds fly, the effects of gravity, magical creatures such as dragons or beholders. The level of research probably dwarfed the full extent of all known science on aerodynamics alone.
Frozen water should never be indestructible.
I haven't seen much hard evidence against this use of the cantrip. Just people voicing their disbelief and trying to have what they say accepted, much like I'm doing, except I'm trying to quote RAW and support my arguments while refuting others.
If my position is so impossible to accept let's switch sides and you try to prove the ice-glider can work while I try to disprove it's functionality.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Everyone's idea of simple could be different. Some may be confusing basic with simple.
Lego blocks come in many different types, most are from sets that build a specific thing (eg. an X-wing fighter), but there are also the generic colored blocks that look like interlocking bricks. Those blocks are simple shapes. A rectangle with a few bumps on top and corresponding holes or divots underneath to allow them to connect together.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
An airfoil is just an elongated teardrop shape with a slight curve.
This beyond simple, it's downright basic.
Simple doesn't mean just 3 shapes, circle, triangle, and square. Simple just means simple, not complex.
Would a cube be considered simple?
How about a cube with a hole going directly through the center of it?
What if that same shape had a bump on top and a divot on the bottom?
Where do you draw the line on what is considered simple and who gets to decide? You? Me? Someone else?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
An airfoil is just an elongated teardrop shape with a slight curve.
This beyond simple, it's downright basic.
Simple doesn't mean just 3 shapes, circle, triangle, and square. Simple just means simple, not complex.
Would a cube be considered simple?
How about a cube with a hole going directly through the center of it?
What if that same shape had a bump on top and a divot on the bottom?
Where do you draw the line on what is considered simple and who gets to decide? You? Me? Someone else?
If it's so basic, then why did it take thousands of years of humans wanting to be able to fly before someone figured it out? And why are there now, more than 100 years after it was developed, still teams of engineers at Boeing and Airbus and other companies refining it? You are placing your personal knowledge into the head of a character who would have no knowledge of it.
And your argument that there were wizards researching the fly spell, so they were learning about aerodynamics is absurd. They were never trying to develop a machine that allowed them to fly. They were determining arcane gestures, sounds and materials that when combined allowed for flight. Building a machine to do it is the realm of artificers, not wizards. That's like saying that because a wizard came up with fireball, they probably also figured out how to build an internal combustion engine. Moreover, the practitioners now don't have to go through any of that, they just have to know how to cast the spell. Much like how every pilot doesn't have to re-discover Bernoulli's Principle, or even really understand the physics behind it. They may, and many probably do, but even if they don't, the plane will still fly without them knowing why it works.
Instead of a 3D shape that held it's shape for 1 hour, what about a 2D simple shape of a triangle.
Then use another casting to freeze it which will also last an hour.
Take your 50 feet of rope and make a harness to strap the contraption to your back and launch yourself off a cliff.
Now before you have a conniption fit. I know ice is heavy, but if you make it ultra-thin and lightweight... the magic will ensure it keeps the shape for 1 hour, while in real life something so thin would crack apart, the cantrip says it would retain it's shape for an hour.
I'm not expecting to fly to the moon with this thing, just glide downward over a great distance... visualize the flying squirrel and how it glides with it's membranes. Something like that.
Shape Water can only affect a total area of 5ft cube at a time, so roughly 287 lbs of ice. You can cast this twice at a time, so 574 lbs of ice. There are several problems here I see with using ice.
Ice is not very strong and the caster needs to make it thick enough to handle both the upward forces of the air and the downward forces of gravity. This means that you need a really big glider and very quickly, the ice will become its own enemy.
There is an uneven application of forces of the caster’s mass, which add strain where the rope attaches to the glider. So more weight in the form of ice must be applied where the rope fixes to the glider and the caster must also thicken the entire gliding structure to compensate as those forces are spread throughout the glider. More surface area is needed than for a flexible, strong material that can resist sheering forces, which means more weight.
Ice sheets do not flex, they shatter where force is applied. If there is any damage, say by air resistance, the entire glider is gone in an instant.
Even if that were not the case, any localized damage would require immediate repair. The caster cannot cast and control the glider at the same time.
The spell ensures that the ice will maintain for an hour, not that it is impervious to damage for an hour. Otherwise, someone could just make plate armor out of an ice cantrip and tank all damage for an hour or throw up a dome of ice to shield a party from an ancient red dragon’s breath weapon.
If you cannot generate enough force with this spell to cause damage of any kind, it stands to reason that it lacks the power to resist damage of any kind.
By mass, ice has terrible sheer strength. I looked it up. 14.5-29 psi compared to the weakest aluminum that I found, which is 9,000 psi. Dacron, which is the fabric used for hang-gliders, has a tensile strength given of 170 MPa. Sheer strength is 0.58 of tensile strength according to the von Mises yield criteria, so round to half for ease. 170 MPa is 24,656 psi tensile strength, which is 12,328 psi sheer strength. Ice has no chance at being effective at carrying someone with the same volume as a hang glider.
It seems to me that using the spell in this way will be a fantastic weight tied to the caster as they fall like a stone, which will then shower the caster’s body with blades when they inevitably crash and have the glider shatter on top of them.
I'm just casting Shape Water to create simple shapes and use them in an innovative way.
Think of a flying squirrel who actually only glides from a higher branch to a lower one. That's all I was ever proposing.
Most of you seem to confuse making a simple shape with using that shape for complex and complicated things.
The cantrip provides the simple shape, I provide the innovation.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Flying is a complex and complicated thing. Can you make a roughly triangular piece of ice with a bit of a rounded top? Sure. We’re just saying you can’t use that to fly.
1. Ice is not the ideal thing to be making a glider with but it's what the cantrip can create.
2. You don't need extra weight or thickness of ice as you're not trying to fly, simply glide downward. It beats free falling and taking 20d6 bludgeoning damage.
3. The air resistance would be minimal enough to allow for a controlled descent, a gentle glide toward the ground without falling apart in midair. Get all images of Icarus flying too close to the sun out of your mind.
4. You can cast without having to control the glider. Remember this is not a modern glider by any stretch of the imagination. No lift, no flight, nothing like that, just a simple glide.
5. I never claimed the ice was impervious to damage. Many posters on this thread keep making the argument that the ice isn't immune, invulnerable, impervious, and all manner of other such things. All of which I agree with completely.
6. The 1st bullet point of the cantrip reads: You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage. Why does it stand to reason that it lacks the power to resist damage of any kind? I don't get that impression from the cantrip at all. And it certainly doesn't say that anywhere in the cantrip. Are you making up bullshit and trying to pass it off as fact?
7. Where did you look up the sheer strength of ice? I would like to read up on it also. Regardless, it doesn't have to perform the same function as a modern hang glider. It simply as to provide a little glide capability, just a little, anything is better than a free fall. Wind shear is the change in speed and direction of wind over a short distance. It is most often caused by microbursts from thunderstorms, temperature inversions, and surface obstructions.
I will just use the glider when there is no shear or conditions for wind shear.
It might seem to you that using the spell in this way will be a fantastic weight tied to the caster as they fall like a stone, which will then shower the caster’s body with blades when they inevitably crash and have the glider shatter on top of them.
But it doesn't seem this way to me, or others. Many of the posters on here might agree with you but the world is over 6or 7 billion people and they don't all share your view. Or mine for that matter.
Using substandard substances for purposes they weren't intended for isn't advised. A glider made of ice actually working is hard to imagine, but it can be imagined. And it could, possibly, maybe work, even if not entirely as intended, at least to some degree. I just don't want to fall out of the sky like a stone and have blades of ice shower on my body from the crashed glider.
I am interested to know where you found anything on the effects of wind shear and the damage it causes to ice wings. All I could find is how ice forms on the wings of planes and the pillar of off shore oil rigs. I didn't even know they were doing tests on wings made of ice in rl. That's awesome.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I'm also saying you can't fly. Glad we're finally on the same page.
You can however glide with just about any substance that is shaped like a triangle and strapped to your back. It won't look pretty, you might have a rough landing, probably little to no control over the slow descending glide downward. But it might prevent some or all of the 20d6 bludgeoning damage.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Early hang gliders had a low lift-to-drag ratio, so pilots were restricted to gliding down small hills.
Even early hang gliders from rl are far more advanced than what I'm proposing.
Instead of a deadfall straight down resulting in 20d6 bludgeoning damage. I'm hoping for a semi-controlled slow descend at an angle that covers some distance and results in way less damage, hopefully none.
I found many definitions for gliding, flying, and hang gliding.
For the purpose of this thread I have sort of been thinking of flying as that provided by the Fly spell where you can go horizontally, upward, or even hover.
And gliding as being only downward, without any possibility of hovering, much like that of a flying squirrel going from a higher branch in a tree to a lower branch in another tree a little distance away.
It is a crude ice glider after all, not some rocket ship to the stars.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Do not take it the wrong way, but when so many different people, who do not know each other, and who have never spoken to each other, agree that what you propose cannot be done, perhaps it is time to stop arguing.
Anyway, although what you propose is not possible neither from the logic of the game, nor from the logic of the real world, if your DM allows it for fun, go ahead.
It is possible. I have demonstrated that by using RAW. No one has made a single point that I have not been able to refute. It follows the logic of the game and the real world. I don't think any DMs will ever allow this, not even for fun.
I'm not taking it the wrong way. [REDACTED]
No my friend, when I use RAW to prove again and again that it is possible. And no one can refute any of my points that just makes me double down even more.
Notes: Please keep posts respectful and constructive.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Instead of a 3D shape that held it's shape for 1 hour, what about a 2D simple shape of a triangle.
Then use another casting to freeze it which will also last an hour.
Take your 50 feet of rope and make a harness to strap the contraption to your back and launch yourself off a cliff.
Now before you have a conniption fit. I know ice is heavy, but if you make it ultra-thin and lightweight... the magic will ensure it keeps the shape for 1 hour, while in real life something so thin would crack apart, the cantrip says it would retain it's shape for an hour.
I'm not expecting to fly to the moon with this thing, just glide downward over a great distance... visualize the flying squirrel and how it glides with it's membranes. Something like that.
The cantrip says: "You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour." and "You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour."
Nothing is said about what happens if other forces are also exerted on the water and no suggestion is made that the ice has any special strength.
If your DM allows you to make an "ultra-thin and lightweight" glider with the use of the shape water cantrip, fair play to you.
I'd imagine something a bit more heavyweight than that with a potential, depending on dice rolls, of doing more harm than good.
It is possible. I have demonstrated that by using RAW. No one has made a single point that I have not been able to refute. It follows the logic of the game and the real world. I don't think any DMs will ever allow this, not even for fun.
I'm not taking it the wrong way. [REDACTED]
No my friend, when I use RAW to prove again and again that it is possible. And no one can refute any of my points that just makes me double down even more.
What I do not understand is why you ask in a forum of rules and rules mechanics if you have it so clear.
Brian, you keep using the word 'refute'. Forum rules won't let me post the appropriate meme here, but... I do not think it means what you think it means.
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The 2nd bullet point that states a shape you create will last for an hour indeed doesn't make the ice special or immune to outside forces. Although if nothing happens to it the shape will remain for an hour, even defying gravity. I mean water doesn't normally take the shape of a sphere on it's own as gravity prevents this, but with this cantrip gravity doesn't ruin the shape. It lasts for an hour barring no other disastrous thing happening to it (dispel magic, destroy water etc.)
Kotath
True. I'm not right simply because I say something. Neither is anyone else. That's why I've been trying to adhere to RAW as much as possible. I do use almost any means at my disposal to try to make my point or argument, doesn't everyone. The mention of physics by both sides should only be referenced as a comparison and taken with a grain of salt, as these are fantasy worlds that are different from earth is size and maybe other things, different number of moons and their sizes even vary. Most things in physics work pretty much the same way. But I wouldn't count on everything always working exactly the same... there is magic after all.
I'm not trying to recreate modern hang gliders or find a backdoor way to get flight. Just want a makeshift on-the-fly hokey style ice-glider that might allow for a reduction or total elimination of the 20d6 bludgeoning damage from falling. Although not exactly like a flying squirrel (never claimed it was a perfect match) I continue to use that example not for any similarities in mechanics of how they glide but just the fact that they are both trying to move from a higher elevation to a lower elevation without going splat.
SagaTympana
Never meant to insult anyone really. Or do any damage to the field of aerodynamics. I think everyone coming into this thread is biased by the title and already has a mindset that this is impossible and won't work so they just get right to work trying to poke holes in the whole theory without giving it a fair chance. I challenge anyone to try to prove how this can work instead of pointing out the same reasons that others have used to try to prove it won't.
Drunkprince
I am hoping I am somehow completely wrong and not just partially wrong. Thought maybe the community could quote rules as to why it shouldn't work, instead of just saying no it doesn't work.
Someone did mention a character weighing around 200 lb. as an obstacle and I explained that my 40 lb. halfling/gnome would cast Enlarge/Reduce to now be tiny sized and weigh only 5 lb. This seems to me to address the weigh issue.
Also, people keep saying that an airfoil (essentially an elongated teardrop, some side views I've looked at online don't even have a curve) is not a simple shape. It is. What it can be used for and the entire field of aerodynamics are complex... but an elongated teardrop is a rather simple shape.
AntonSirius
You're probably right. I have probably not refuted anything, just as others have probably not refuted my 'far-out' ideas. It is clear that many don't think this is possible in any way, shape, or form... I happen to currently think it has legs. And I have strengthened my position a little since I started this thread by winning the weigh and airfoil arguments.
What are some other concerns that I might lay to rest?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You seem surprisingly combative in your response to me. Is it really so important that people approve of your idea? If your DM allows it, I do not see why forum approval matters so much. Anyway, I will address what I can.
Unfortunately, the material you have your disposal matters.
Gliding is a complicated thing. You do need appropriate materials to glide safely. Extra weight is what you do not want, but it is absolutely required to give ice the strength you need to have a wingspan necessary to glide.
Air resistance is not minimal. It is pushing up against your rigid and fragile glider while your caster is pulling down.
This is factually untrue. You need to maintain control of your glider for safety. You do not have some sophisticated glider bar that can maintain some semblance of control while you gesticulate. You have simple rope, which will respond harshly to you releasing pressure on it, which in turn will cause your glider to shift violently. I do not think you have put as much throught into this as you think you have.
If you acknowledge that the ice is not impervious to damage, then you must also acknowledge that the size of the glider, the mass of the water used, your own mass, the forces applied from every direction, and the thinness you want to achieve upward lift will all cause your glider to collapse.
This is definitely my interpretation, but I think yours makes no sense and is obviously a desperate attempt to make your bad idea less bad. You are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
The internet. We live in the Information Age. If you were even trying to approach this response in good faith, I would cite my sources, but based on your terrible attitude, I cannot say I am inspired to find it for you. Dismiss it if you want. You backed yourself into a corner here and have to just to maintain your position.
I am not making some argumentum ad populum. I have given a detailed post on why I do not believe this is a good idea and attempted to approach this from as logical a standpoint as I could. You decided to take this disagreement as an attack on your intellect, I guess. Discourse has broken down and there really is no incentive for me to engage you further. Play the game how you wish and if your DM decides on the Rule of Cool, more power to you.
Sorry I got so upset with some of the incorrect info you posted and took it out on you. Most of your points were valid and they are what I am basing this whole premise on. They actually support my position but I'm sure that wasn't your intention. Forum approval doesn't matter as much as trying to get just one poster to abandon the sheep mentality of jumping on a thread and immediately nay-saying and poo pooing an idea without even reading the posts. You don't how many times I have had to repeat things that were already covered. But since that is from a collective and not just you. I again am sorry to use harsh words and an insulting manner. Allow me to readdress your concerns.
1. Of course the material matters, I never once said it doesn't. Unfortunately the limits of the Shape Water doesn't allow me to make Dacron, only ice.
2. Gliding really isn't all that complicated. Modern hang-gliding with all it's controlled flight and sustained flight and steering and everything else can be, but just gliding, kids build papar airplanes that glide when tossed into the air all the time.
3. In case you missed it by using the reduce option of the Enlarge/Reduce spell I can make my 40lb. halfling/gnome into a tiny sized creature that weighs only 5lb.... I guess if I used a 25 pound kobold it would tiny and only weigh 3 and 1/8th lb. Also I guess I could freeze a 2nd shape to the 1st to make a 10 foot wingspan.
4. Instead of harness that simulates the modern glider, maybe a simple criss-cross harness to keep the 10 foot wing span ice-glider on my back leaving arm, legs, and head free. I'll be giving up steering but hey what's a little adventure if it means avoiding all the nasty fall damage.
5. The size, mass, and forces have all been addressed and while they are a concern they actually don't make this impossible, just not ideal, not even close. I might get really hurt, but if it's less than 20d6 bludgeoning I'll count that as as much of a win that I can expect from a crazy idea like this.
6. My interpretation doesn't make no sense, not everyone's interpretation is going to be the same. No need to try and use veiled insults by saying it makes no sense. It obviously makes a lot of sense. Everything sounds so reasonable on paper, as I've said the weight and airfoil arguments have been addressed. I hope the community hasn't hung their hopes on just those arguments. I hope there is more that will refute my crazy idea. Otherwise I'm gonna jump and test out this ice-glider to see how it works.
7. I looked on the internet and found some interesting papers that proved ice actually has a stronger tensile strength than I thought. But all I could find was stuff about how ice forming on metal wings, combined with shear affected metal wings... and how it affected the support posts of off-shore oil rigs... stuff like that.
I couldn't find anything on how wind shear affected wings made of ice. I'm sure others are interested in this besides me. It's unfair to keep this info to yourself and not share with the community.
I'm also trying to have a fair and reasonable discussion in good faith. I never felt my intellect was ever attacked. Did I miss something in one of the posts? I mean i know I've referred to this as a crazy idea on several occasions, surprisingly not a single poster to date has expressed a similar concern. They must all think it is more viable than I do. lol
If DMs and players only ever use RAW then is very sad indeed. RAI and ROC were meant to be added to some degree. How much of each gets used in any game is up to those involved n that game, but 100% RAW sounds like an awful game to play in. I suppose some min/maxers might like it. I personally like mostly RAW with some RAI and a little ROC.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
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Since most of what you say is in support of my idea, I agree with most of it.
Although, you have made some good points as to why it wouldn't work I have yet to see you post reason why it would work.
Also, somewhere in your 3rd point you mention different kinds of ice not existing on earth.
I have never played a D&D game on the world of earth setting or a D&D character from earth. I prefer fantasy world settings.
The Fly spell just didn't pop into existence one day. In every setting it had to be originally researched, many different aspects such as how things float on the air, how birds fly, the effects of gravity, magical creatures such as dragons or beholders. The level of research probably dwarfed the full extent of all known science on aerodynamics alone.
Frozen water should never be indestructible.
I haven't seen much hard evidence against this use of the cantrip. Just people voicing their disbelief and trying to have what they say accepted, much like I'm doing, except I'm trying to quote RAW and support my arguments while refuting others.
If my position is so impossible to accept let's switch sides and you try to prove the ice-glider can work while I try to disprove it's functionality.
Everyone's idea of simple could be different. Some may be confusing basic with simple.
Lego blocks come in many different types, most are from sets that build a specific thing (eg. an X-wing fighter), but there are also the generic colored blocks that look like interlocking bricks. Those blocks are simple shapes. A rectangle with a few bumps on top and corresponding holes or divots underneath to allow them to connect together.
An airfoil is just an elongated teardrop shape with a slight curve.
This beyond simple, it's downright basic.
Simple doesn't mean just 3 shapes, circle, triangle, and square. Simple just means simple, not complex.
Would a cube be considered simple?
How about a cube with a hole going directly through the center of it?
What if that same shape had a bump on top and a divot on the bottom?
Where do you draw the line on what is considered simple and who gets to decide? You? Me? Someone else?
If it's so basic, then why did it take thousands of years of humans wanting to be able to fly before someone figured it out? And why are there now, more than 100 years after it was developed, still teams of engineers at Boeing and Airbus and other companies refining it? You are placing your personal knowledge into the head of a character who would have no knowledge of it.
And your argument that there were wizards researching the fly spell, so they were learning about aerodynamics is absurd. They were never trying to develop a machine that allowed them to fly. They were determining arcane gestures, sounds and materials that when combined allowed for flight. Building a machine to do it is the realm of artificers, not wizards. That's like saying that because a wizard came up with fireball, they probably also figured out how to build an internal combustion engine. Moreover, the practitioners now don't have to go through any of that, they just have to know how to cast the spell. Much like how every pilot doesn't have to re-discover Bernoulli's Principle, or even really understand the physics behind it. They may, and many probably do, but even if they don't, the plane will still fly without them knowing why it works.
Shape Water can only affect a total area of 5ft cube at a time, so roughly 287 lbs of ice. You can cast this twice at a time, so 574 lbs of ice. There are several problems here I see with using ice.
It seems to me that using the spell in this way will be a fantastic weight tied to the caster as they fall like a stone, which will then shower the caster’s body with blades when they inevitably crash and have the glider shatter on top of them.
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I'm just casting Shape Water to create simple shapes and use them in an innovative way.
Think of a flying squirrel who actually only glides from a higher branch to a lower one. That's all I was ever proposing.
Most of you seem to confuse making a simple shape with using that shape for complex and complicated things.
The cantrip provides the simple shape, I provide the innovation.
Flying is a complex and complicated thing.
Can you make a roughly triangular piece of ice with a bit of a rounded top? Sure. We’re just saying you can’t use that to fly.
1. Ice is not the ideal thing to be making a glider with but it's what the cantrip can create.
2. You don't need extra weight or thickness of ice as you're not trying to fly, simply glide downward. It beats free falling and taking 20d6 bludgeoning damage.
3. The air resistance would be minimal enough to allow for a controlled descent, a gentle glide toward the ground without falling apart in midair. Get all images of Icarus flying too close to the sun out of your mind.
4. You can cast without having to control the glider. Remember this is not a modern glider by any stretch of the imagination. No lift, no flight, nothing like that, just a simple glide.
5. I never claimed the ice was impervious to damage. Many posters on this thread keep making the argument that the ice isn't immune, invulnerable, impervious, and all manner of other such things. All of which I agree with completely.
6. The 1st bullet point of the cantrip reads: You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage. Why does it stand to reason that it lacks the power to resist damage of any kind? I don't get that impression from the cantrip at all. And it certainly doesn't say that anywhere in the cantrip. Are you making up bullshit and trying to pass it off as fact?
7. Where did you look up the sheer strength of ice? I would like to read up on it also. Regardless, it doesn't have to perform the same function as a modern hang glider. It simply as to provide a little glide capability, just a little, anything is better than a free fall. Wind shear is the change in speed and direction of wind over a short distance. It is most often caused by microbursts from thunderstorms, temperature inversions, and surface obstructions.
I will just use the glider when there is no shear or conditions for wind shear.
It might seem to you that using the spell in this way will be a fantastic weight tied to the caster as they fall like a stone, which will then shower the caster’s body with blades when they inevitably crash and have the glider shatter on top of them.
But it doesn't seem this way to me, or others. Many of the posters on here might agree with you but the world is over 6or 7 billion people and they don't all share your view. Or mine for that matter.
Using substandard substances for purposes they weren't intended for isn't advised. A glider made of ice actually working is hard to imagine, but it can be imagined. And it could, possibly, maybe work, even if not entirely as intended, at least to some degree. I just don't want to fall out of the sky like a stone and have blades of ice shower on my body from the crashed glider.
I am interested to know where you found anything on the effects of wind shear and the damage it causes to ice wings. All I could find is how ice forms on the wings of planes and the pillar of off shore oil rigs. I didn't even know they were doing tests on wings made of ice in rl. That's awesome.
I'm also saying you can't fly. Glad we're finally on the same page.
You can however glide with just about any substance that is shaped like a triangle and strapped to your back. It won't look pretty, you might have a rough landing, probably little to no control over the slow descending glide downward. But it might prevent some or all of the 20d6 bludgeoning damage.
Gliding is flying. It means fly without an engine. Go ahead and look it up for yourself.
Early hang gliders had a low lift-to-drag ratio, so pilots were restricted to gliding down small hills.
Even early hang gliders from rl are far more advanced than what I'm proposing.
Instead of a deadfall straight down resulting in 20d6 bludgeoning damage. I'm hoping for a semi-controlled slow descend at an angle that covers some distance and results in way less damage, hopefully none.
I found many definitions for gliding, flying, and hang gliding.
For the purpose of this thread I have sort of been thinking of flying as that provided by the Fly spell where you can go horizontally, upward, or even hover.
And gliding as being only downward, without any possibility of hovering, much like that of a flying squirrel going from a higher branch in a tree to a lower branch in another tree a little distance away.
It is a crude ice glider after all, not some rocket ship to the stars.
Do not take it the wrong way, but when so many different people, who do not know each other, and who have never spoken to each other, agree that what you propose cannot be done, perhaps it is time to stop arguing.
Anyway, although what you propose is not possible neither from the logic of the game, nor from the logic of the real world, if your DM allows it for fun, go ahead.
It is possible. I have demonstrated that by using RAW. No one has made a single point that I have not been able to refute. It follows the logic of the game and the real world. I don't think any DMs will ever allow this, not even for fun.
I'm not taking it the wrong way. [REDACTED]
No my friend, when I use RAW to prove again and again that it is possible. And no one can refute any of my points that just makes me double down even more.
op:
The cantrip says: "You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour." and "You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour."
Nothing is said about what happens if other forces are also exerted on the water and no suggestion is made that the ice has any special strength.
If your DM allows you to make an "ultra-thin and lightweight" glider with the use of the shape water cantrip, fair play to you.
I'd imagine something a bit more heavyweight than that with a potential, depending on dice rolls, of doing more harm than good.
What I do not understand is why you ask in a forum of rules and rules mechanics if you have it so clear.
Brian, you keep using the word 'refute'. Forum rules won't let me post the appropriate meme here, but... I do not think it means what you think it means.
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GergKyae
The 2nd bullet point that states a shape you create will last for an hour indeed doesn't make the ice special or immune to outside forces. Although if nothing happens to it the shape will remain for an hour, even defying gravity. I mean water doesn't normally take the shape of a sphere on it's own as gravity prevents this, but with this cantrip gravity doesn't ruin the shape. It lasts for an hour barring no other disastrous thing happening to it (dispel magic, destroy water etc.)
Kotath
True. I'm not right simply because I say something. Neither is anyone else. That's why I've been trying to adhere to RAW as much as possible. I do use almost any means at my disposal to try to make my point or argument, doesn't everyone. The mention of physics by both sides should only be referenced as a comparison and taken with a grain of salt, as these are fantasy worlds that are different from earth is size and maybe other things, different number of moons and their sizes even vary. Most things in physics work pretty much the same way. But I wouldn't count on everything always working exactly the same... there is magic after all.
I'm not trying to recreate modern hang gliders or find a backdoor way to get flight. Just want a makeshift on-the-fly hokey style ice-glider that might allow for a reduction or total elimination of the 20d6 bludgeoning damage from falling. Although not exactly like a flying squirrel (never claimed it was a perfect match) I continue to use that example not for any similarities in mechanics of how they glide but just the fact that they are both trying to move from a higher elevation to a lower elevation without going splat.
SagaTympana
Never meant to insult anyone really. Or do any damage to the field of aerodynamics. I think everyone coming into this thread is biased by the title and already has a mindset that this is impossible and won't work so they just get right to work trying to poke holes in the whole theory without giving it a fair chance. I challenge anyone to try to prove how this can work instead of pointing out the same reasons that others have used to try to prove it won't.
Drunkprince
I am hoping I am somehow completely wrong and not just partially wrong. Thought maybe the community could quote rules as to why it shouldn't work, instead of just saying no it doesn't work.
Someone did mention a character weighing around 200 lb. as an obstacle and I explained that my 40 lb. halfling/gnome would cast Enlarge/Reduce to now be tiny sized and weigh only 5 lb. This seems to me to address the weigh issue.
Also, people keep saying that an airfoil (essentially an elongated teardrop, some side views I've looked at online don't even have a curve) is not a simple shape. It is. What it can be used for and the entire field of aerodynamics are complex... but an elongated teardrop is a rather simple shape.
AntonSirius
You're probably right. I have probably not refuted anything, just as others have probably not refuted my 'far-out' ideas. It is clear that many don't think this is possible in any way, shape, or form... I happen to currently think it has legs. And I have strengthened my position a little since I started this thread by winning the weigh and airfoil arguments.
What are some other concerns that I might lay to rest?
Hello Brian_Avery,
You seem surprisingly combative in your response to me. Is it really so important that people approve of your idea? If your DM allows it, I do not see why forum approval matters so much. Anyway, I will address what I can.
I am not making some argumentum ad populum. I have given a detailed post on why I do not believe this is a good idea and attempted to approach this from as logical a standpoint as I could. You decided to take this disagreement as an attack on your intellect, I guess. Discourse has broken down and there really is no incentive for me to engage you further. Play the game how you wish and if your DM decides on the Rule of Cool, more power to you.
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Hi Erriku,
Sorry I got so upset with some of the incorrect info you posted and took it out on you. Most of your points were valid and they are what I am basing this whole premise on. They actually support my position but I'm sure that wasn't your intention. Forum approval doesn't matter as much as trying to get just one poster to abandon the sheep mentality of jumping on a thread and immediately nay-saying and poo pooing an idea without even reading the posts. You don't how many times I have had to repeat things that were already covered. But since that is from a collective and not just you. I again am sorry to use harsh words and an insulting manner. Allow me to readdress your concerns.
1. Of course the material matters, I never once said it doesn't. Unfortunately the limits of the Shape Water doesn't allow me to make Dacron, only ice.
2. Gliding really isn't all that complicated. Modern hang-gliding with all it's controlled flight and sustained flight and steering and everything else can be, but just gliding, kids build papar airplanes that glide when tossed into the air all the time.
3. In case you missed it by using the reduce option of the Enlarge/Reduce spell I can make my 40lb. halfling/gnome into a tiny sized creature that weighs only 5lb.... I guess if I used a 25 pound kobold it would tiny and only weigh 3 and 1/8th lb. Also I guess I could freeze a 2nd shape to the 1st to make a 10 foot wingspan.
4. Instead of harness that simulates the modern glider, maybe a simple criss-cross harness to keep the 10 foot wing span ice-glider on my back leaving arm, legs, and head free. I'll be giving up steering but hey what's a little adventure if it means avoiding all the nasty fall damage.
5. The size, mass, and forces have all been addressed and while they are a concern they actually don't make this impossible, just not ideal, not even close. I might get really hurt, but if it's less than 20d6 bludgeoning I'll count that as as much of a win that I can expect from a crazy idea like this.
6. My interpretation doesn't make no sense, not everyone's interpretation is going to be the same. No need to try and use veiled insults by saying it makes no sense. It obviously makes a lot of sense. Everything sounds so reasonable on paper, as I've said the weight and airfoil arguments have been addressed. I hope the community hasn't hung their hopes on just those arguments. I hope there is more that will refute my crazy idea. Otherwise I'm gonna jump and test out this ice-glider to see how it works.
7. I looked on the internet and found some interesting papers that proved ice actually has a stronger tensile strength than I thought. But all I could find was stuff about how ice forming on metal wings, combined with shear affected metal wings... and how it affected the support posts of off-shore oil rigs... stuff like that.
I couldn't find anything on how wind shear affected wings made of ice. I'm sure others are interested in this besides me. It's unfair to keep this info to yourself and not share with the community.
I'm also trying to have a fair and reasonable discussion in good faith. I never felt my intellect was ever attacked. Did I miss something in one of the posts? I mean i know I've referred to this as a crazy idea on several occasions, surprisingly not a single poster to date has expressed a similar concern. They must all think it is more viable than I do. lol
If DMs and players only ever use RAW then is very sad indeed. RAI and ROC were meant to be added to some degree. How much of each gets used in any game is up to those involved n that game, but 100% RAW sounds like an awful game to play in. I suppose some min/maxers might like it. I personally like mostly RAW with some RAI and a little ROC.