Alright, so the rules say you can move a distance up to your speed. If your speed is zero, you can move... zero. Being able to move zero is equivalent to being unable to move.
I mean, you're not wrong.
To me, a speed of 0 just means you cannot move to a new location. I'm talking about the kinds of movement that would be involved in firing a bow or crossbow, drawing a weapon, donning a shield, or casting a spell with a somatic component. Heck, even lying down prone on the ground or using the [Tooltip Not Found] action would fall into the category of movement I am referring to. I feel like features that call you out as being unable to move would prevent you from doing any of those things. If you have a speed of 0, I would suggest that you can do them.
We have a lot of great discussion here. Here's my interpretation, even though I feel it's being used to create a really powerful situation. At the same time, to me, this isn't a RAI thing, this is a RAW thing.
Steady Aim absolutely nullifies the Cloak of Displacement during that turn. So if a NPC somehow has the means to attack during the rogues turn or activates some sort of effect, then they wouldn't benefit from the Cloak.
The second the turn ends, it clicks back on becuase Steady Aim specifically states it only reduces movement till the end of the turn. Now the rogue has the ability to move again provided something gives them the ability to move, but the point is their speed isn't zero and they have that ability.
Battlemaster is a great example of this, but it's not Bait and Switch, it's Maneuvering Attack. Battlemaster hits, expends die and the Rogue who they can either see or hear gets to use its reaction to move half their movement. Since this is a new turn, per Steady Aim, they get their movement back. This is a new turn in the same exact instance that if the Rogue in a different situation were to somehow get it's reaction and be able to hit someone, they can apply Sneak Die provided they meet the other pre-requisites of Sneak Attack. It's extremely important to note the difference between "Until the end of your turn" and "Until the start of your next turn" as they both have extremely different implications on game mechanics.
It's a powerful combination for sure, but I think it's RAW.
Balance - Steady Aim grants a powerful benefit and is intended to have strong drawbacks to match
Those drawbacks still exist. The rogue wasn't able to move on it's turn and now someone is going to have to expend a resource to allow the Rogue to move. A magic item covering up some sort of weakness or having an effect that grants an advantage in a weird case is what magic items do.
Alright, so the rules say you can move a distance up to your speed. If your speed is zero, you can move... zero. Being able to move zero is equivalent to being unable to move.
I mean, you're not wrong.
To me, a speed of 0 just means you cannot move to a new location. I'm talking about the kinds of movement that would be involved in firing a bow or crossbow, drawing a weapon, donning a shield, or casting a spell with a somatic component. Heck, even lying down prone on the ground or using the use an object action would fall into the category of movement I am referring to. I feel like features that call you out as being unable to move would prevent you from doing any of those things. If you have a speed of 0, I would suggest that you can do them.
The rules of the game do not seem to consider those things movement, so if a feature were to say "you can't move," I'd be very comfortable saying that, according to the rules, that feature would not prevent you from doing those things.
I want to be clear that I'm not disputing that the category of movement you're referring to is an actual category of movement, at least colloquially (or literally, in the real world). But the rules pretty clearly do not call them movement. I don't think there's any reason to expect that if a rule were to say "you cannot move" it would mean anything other than the movement referred to by the rules for movement, and in that context, "your speed is 0" and "you cannot move" are exactly the same (unless Plaguescarred comes back with an example of a "you can move X feet" feature that still works even if your movement is 0).
The rules do not call those things movement as far as I can tell. My argument hinges on a deductive distinction using examples of conditions that set your speed to 0 and other conditions that make you unable to move.
I think that’s probably the best I am going to be able to do to make my case 🤷🏼♂️
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance. A Scout can use it even he already used up all of his movement during his turn.
Also I'm fairly certain that in cases where it somehow becomes possible for you to use 2 bonus actions in one turn (no idea how, this is purely theoretical), a 7 barbarian/3 rogue would be able to Steady Aim with one bonus action, then use the second bonus action to rage, which will trigger Instinctive Pounce to allow him to move anyway. Note how none of those features refer to your current speed, only you speed.
There are zero scenarios where you get a second bonus action, unless you have some weird homebrewed stuff that allows it.
That being said, it wouldn't work. In the event somehow you got two bonus actions, Steady Aim is 100% incompatible, as it does not allow to have moved during your turn at all, and once you activate it, even if you rage? You can't move more than 0. Pounce talks about your ability to move, but you can't move if your movement is zero your movement speed was set to 0. Current speed overrides your default. Your default just exists as a baseline for other rules.
...yes, which is why I said it's purely theoretical. Which wasn't even my point, my point is that if you current speed is 0 and you are not otherwise restrained Instinctive Pounce would still allow you to move. Or am I wrong? Because other things where it's not the case, like the aforementioned Harengon's Rabbit Hop specifically says you can't use it if your speed is 0. Instinctive Pounce, Skirmisher and the rest I can recall don't make that distinction.
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance. A Scout can use it even he already used up all of his movement during his turn.
Also I'm fairly certain that in cases where it somehow becomes possible for you to use 2 bonus actions in one turn (no idea how, this is purely theoretical), a 7 barbarian/3 rogue would be able to Steady Aim with one bonus action, then use the second bonus action to rage, which will trigger Instinctive Pounce to allow him to move anyway. Note how none of those features refer to your current speed, only you speed.
Er, no, these features do not access your unmodified base speed. If your speed is altered in any way, that is the value that you use for any feature referencing your speed.
The Scout's Skirmisher is still dependent on your speed. If your speed is 0, you cannot move with it. Instinctive Pounce is dependent on your speed - if your speed is 0, you cannot move with it.
...yes, which is why I said is purely theoretical. Which wasn't even my point, my point is that if you current speed is 0 and you are not otherwise restrained Instinctive Pounce would still allow you to move. Or am I wrong? Because other things where it's not the case, like the aforementioned Harengon's Rabbit Hop specifically says you can't use it if your speed is 0. Instinctive Pounce, Skirmisher and the rest I can recall don't make that distinction.
You're wrong.
Skirmisher works because it specifically has a clause that can be activated on another turn, where Steady Aim specifically states it ends on your turn. Pounce has to happen on your turn, where you already used an effect to make your movement zero.
This is where the discussion has been diverging, and the distinctions aren't being made clear. It doesn't matter what you do on your turn. If you move in any way shape or form, you can't use Steady Aim. Once you've used your bonus action to activate steady aim, anything that requires you or gives your the ability to spend movement is moot because you have zero movement to spend, even if you get a number added to it specifically because Steady Aim says you can't move.
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance.
A storm sorcerer's tempestuous magic maybe? I think that would work even if you had a speed of 0, but it uses your bonus action so you would not do this on the same round that you used steady aim.
While you can move when using your speed, the opposite is not true. (you can't move when not using your speed)
There's instance where you can move without using your speed. Ex. move X feet, up to half your speed, swap place, teleporting etc
Some specific examples would be helpful, especially of your first case.
I'm not aware off the top of my head of any feature that says "move X feet." The harengon's jump is close, but you can't use it if your speed is 0.
"Up to half your speed" is nothing if your speed is 0, so in that case, having a speed of zero means you can't move.
In the case of Bait & Switch, the target doesn't move. They are moved. It's similar to being shoved. Even if they can't move for some reason, the feature still works (unless they're incapacitated, because that's explicitly called out by the feature's text).
Teleportation isn't movement.
I can't think of right right now but the principle still hold, if there is any, you would be able to move the distance even if your speed is 0, where you wouldn't if paralyzed.
Bait & Switch is not forced movement, the creature moves if willing and not incapacitated where creature moved usually can even if unwilling or incapacitated.
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance.
A storm sorcerer's tempestuous magic maybe? I think that would work even if you had a speed of 0, but it uses your bonus action so you would not do this on the same round that you used steady aim.
This is an exemple of a game feature letting you move X feet without relying on speed i was refering to thanks for digging it!
While you can move when using your speed, the opposite is not true. (you can't move when not using your speed)
There's instance where you can move without using your speed. Ex. move X feet, up to half your speed, swap place, teleporting etc
Some specific examples would be helpful, especially of your first case.
I'm not aware off the top of my head of any feature that says "move X feet." The harengon's jump is close, but you can't use it if your speed is 0.
"Up to half your speed" is nothing if your speed is 0, so in that case, having a speed of zero means you can't move.
In the case of Bait & Switch, the target doesn't move. They are moved. It's similar to being shoved. Even if they can't move for some reason, the feature still works (unless they're incapacitated, because that's explicitly called out by the feature's text).
Teleportation isn't movement.
I can't think of right right now but the principle still hold, if there is any, you would be able to move the distance even if your speed is 0, where you wouldn't if paralyzed.
Bait & Switch is not forced movement, the creature moves if willing and not incapacitated where creature moved usually can even if unwilling or incapacitated.
Whether or not it's forced movement is not relevant. What's relevant is that someone else is moving you.
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance.
A storm sorcerer's tempestuous magic maybe? I think that would work even if you had a speed of 0, but it uses your bonus action so you would not do this on the same round that you used steady aim.
This is an exemple of a game feature letting you move X feet without relying on speed i was refering to thanks for digging it!
I don't think I'd go so far as to say "without relying on speed." Nothing about the feature says it doesn't cost movement; if we refer back to the rules on movement linked earlier, "However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving." I don't see anything in the Tempestuous Magic that would get around this.
It is a movement that doesn't rely on speed, since it has no reference to it. You fly at the cost of a bonus action, not speed movement. Just like Rabbit Hop doesn't using it's speed to jump, but on the other hand, the Harengon do rely on speed since it can't if its speed is at 0.
@JeremyECrawford If you're a Storm Sorcery sorcerer and use Tempestuous Magic, the 10 feet of flight doesn't expend any of your normal movement that turn. #DnD
It is a movement that doesn't rely on speed, since it has no reference to it. You fly at the cost of a bonus action, not speed movement. Just like Rabbit Hop doesn't using it's speed to jump, but on the other hand, the Harengon do rely on speed since it can't if its speed is at 0.
@JeremyECrawford If you're a Storm Sorcery sorcerer and use Tempestuous Magic, the 10 feet of flight doesn't expend any of your normal movement that turn. #DnD
Honestly, that's how I interpreted it. You aren't expending movement, and that movement can't be increased in any way by any feature; The winds are carrying you 10 feet.
Tempestuous Magic let you fly, and when you do you are moving, you are leaving space/square to enter another.
I'm not sure you can have it both ways. If Crawford's ruling (which isn't actually supported by the text, but I'll grant him the intent) is true, then Tempestuous Magic isn't moving, in the same way that being shoved isn't moving and teleporting isn't moving. If Tempestuous Magic is moving, then it must count against your movement, and you can't do it if your speed is zero.
The rules are clear: "however you're moving" you subtract the distance from your speed until you run out. If you don't subtract the distance, you definitionally are not moving in a way that the rules care about (absent text to the contrary, of course).
Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Instinctive Pounce
As part of the bonus action you take to enter your rage, you can move up to half your speed.
Sounds to me like those 2 features should be mechanically the same, the difference being that one allows you to fly up to a specific numbers, the other allows to simply move up to a variable. But neither should allow you to move with 0 speed.
It's both letting you move and not relying on speed. Here's another tweet;
@DaveWil33 Tempestuous Magic. Usable if Speed=0? Affected by features that affect Speed? Usable if you have already used Movement = your Speed that turn?
@JeremyECrawfordA rule refers to your speed if your speed is relevant to how that rule works. For example, Tempestuous Magic allows you to fly up to 10 feet. The feature makes no mention of your speed, so your speed is irrelevant to it. #DnD
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I mean, you're not wrong.
To me, a speed of 0 just means you cannot move to a new location. I'm talking about the kinds of movement that would be involved in firing a bow or crossbow, drawing a weapon, donning a shield, or casting a spell with a somatic component. Heck, even lying down prone on the ground or using the [Tooltip Not Found] action would fall into the category of movement I am referring to. I feel like features that call you out as being unable to move would prevent you from doing any of those things. If you have a speed of 0, I would suggest that you can do them.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
We have a lot of great discussion here. Here's my interpretation, even though I feel it's being used to create a really powerful situation. At the same time, to me, this isn't a RAI thing, this is a RAW thing.
Steady Aim absolutely nullifies the Cloak of Displacement during that turn. So if a NPC somehow has the means to attack during the rogues turn or activates some sort of effect, then they wouldn't benefit from the Cloak.
The second the turn ends, it clicks back on becuase Steady Aim specifically states it only reduces movement till the end of the turn. Now the rogue has the ability to move again provided something gives them the ability to move, but the point is their speed isn't zero and they have that ability.
Battlemaster is a great example of this, but it's not Bait and Switch, it's Maneuvering Attack. Battlemaster hits, expends die and the Rogue who they can either see or hear gets to use its reaction to move half their movement. Since this is a new turn, per Steady Aim, they get their movement back. This is a new turn in the same exact instance that if the Rogue in a different situation were to somehow get it's reaction and be able to hit someone, they can apply Sneak Die provided they meet the other pre-requisites of Sneak Attack. It's extremely important to note the difference between "Until the end of your turn" and "Until the start of your next turn" as they both have extremely different implications on game mechanics.
It's a powerful combination for sure, but I think it's RAW.
Those drawbacks still exist. The rogue wasn't able to move on it's turn and now someone is going to have to expend a resource to allow the Rogue to move. A magic item covering up some sort of weakness or having an effect that grants an advantage in a weird case is what magic items do.
The rules of the game do not seem to consider those things movement, so if a feature were to say "you can't move," I'd be very comfortable saying that, according to the rules, that feature would not prevent you from doing those things.
I want to be clear that I'm not disputing that the category of movement you're referring to is an actual category of movement, at least colloquially (or literally, in the real world). But the rules pretty clearly do not call them movement. I don't think there's any reason to expect that if a rule were to say "you cannot move" it would mean anything other than the movement referred to by the rules for movement, and in that context, "your speed is 0" and "you cannot move" are exactly the same (unless Plaguescarred comes back with an example of a "you can move X feet" feature that still works even if your movement is 0).
The rules do not call those things movement as far as I can tell. My argument hinges on a deductive distinction using examples of conditions that set your speed to 0 and other conditions that make you unable to move.
I think that’s probably the best I am going to be able to do to make my case 🤷🏼♂️
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think perhaps he was referring to abilities that allow you to move yourself outside of the standard movement. Like Scout's Skirmisher feature for instance. A Scout can use it even he already used up all of his movement during his turn.
Also I'm fairly certain that in cases where it somehow becomes possible for you to use 2 bonus actions in one turn (no idea how, this is purely theoretical), a 7 barbarian/3 rogue would be able to Steady Aim with one bonus action, then use the second bonus action to rage, which will trigger Instinctive Pounce to allow him to move anyway. Note how none of those features refer to your current speed, only you speed.
There are zero scenarios where you get a second bonus action, unless you have some weird homebrewed stuff that allows it.
That being said, it wouldn't work. In the event somehow you got two bonus actions, Steady Aim is 100% incompatible, as it does not allow to have moved during your turn at all, and once you activate it, even if you rage? You can't move more than 0. Pounce talks about your ability to move, but you can't move if your movement is zero your movement speed was set to 0. Current speed overrides your default. Your default just exists as a baseline for other rules.
...yes, which is why I said it's purely theoretical. Which wasn't even my point, my point is that if you current speed is 0 and you are not otherwise restrained Instinctive Pounce would still allow you to move. Or am I wrong? Because other things where it's not the case, like the aforementioned Harengon's Rabbit Hop specifically says you can't use it if your speed is 0. Instinctive Pounce, Skirmisher and the rest I can recall don't make that distinction.
Er, no, these features do not access your unmodified base speed. If your speed is altered in any way, that is the value that you use for any feature referencing your speed.
The Scout's Skirmisher is still dependent on your speed. If your speed is 0, you cannot move with it. Instinctive Pounce is dependent on your speed - if your speed is 0, you cannot move with it.
You're wrong.
Skirmisher works because it specifically has a clause that can be activated on another turn, where Steady Aim specifically states it ends on your turn. Pounce has to happen on your turn, where you already used an effect to make your movement zero.
This is where the discussion has been diverging, and the distinctions aren't being made clear. It doesn't matter what you do on your turn. If you move in any way shape or form, you can't use Steady Aim. Once you've used your bonus action to activate steady aim, anything that requires you or gives your the ability to spend movement is moot because you have zero movement to spend, even if you get a number added to it specifically because Steady Aim says you can't move.
Ah. I see. Guess I was wrong about that one.
So basically having 0 speed is mechanically equivalent to being unable to move. That answers my original question.
A storm sorcerer's tempestuous magic maybe? I think that would work even if you had a speed of 0, but it uses your bonus action so you would not do this on the same round that you used steady aim.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I can't think of right right now but the principle still hold, if there is any, you would be able to move the distance even if your speed is 0, where you wouldn't if paralyzed.
Bait & Switch is not forced movement, the creature moves if willing and not incapacitated where creature moved usually can even if unwilling or incapacitated.
This is an exemple of a game feature letting you move X feet without relying on speed i was refering to thanks for digging it!
Whether or not it's forced movement is not relevant. What's relevant is that someone else is moving you.
I don't think I'd go so far as to say "without relying on speed." Nothing about the feature says it doesn't cost movement; if we refer back to the rules on movement linked earlier, "However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving." I don't see anything in the Tempestuous Magic that would get around this.
It is a movement that doesn't rely on speed, since it has no reference to it. You fly at the cost of a bonus action, not speed movement. Just like Rabbit Hop doesn't using it's speed to jump, but on the other hand, the Harengon do rely on speed since it can't if its speed is at 0.
EDIT If it matters to anyone, the Devs has confirmed this https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1325865961258246144?s=20
Honestly, that's how I interpreted it. You aren't expending movement, and that movement can't be increased in any way by any feature; The winds are carrying you 10 feet.
Tempestuous Magic let you fly, and when you do you are moving, you are leaving space/square to enter another.
I'm not sure you can have it both ways. If Crawford's ruling (which isn't actually supported by the text, but I'll grant him the intent) is true, then Tempestuous Magic isn't moving, in the same way that being shoved isn't moving and teleporting isn't moving. If Tempestuous Magic is moving, then it must count against your movement, and you can't do it if your speed is zero.
The rules are clear: "however you're moving" you subtract the distance from your speed until you run out. If you don't subtract the distance, you definitionally are not moving in a way that the rules care about (absent text to the contrary, of course).
It's both letting you move and not relying on speed. Here's another tweet;