Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
Clumsily, but I'd say yes. Doing something with mage hand is probably a little more difficult than trying to do something with your off hand (i.e. your left hand if you're a righty), because it's also at a distance and not actually attached to you
Put it this way - a wizard chef would use mage hand to hold the carrot they're chopping, but not hold the carrot with their real hand and chop with mage hand unless they didn't like their fingers
Ok, so let's put this more into game terms. Say my character has the Telekinetic Feat and is proficient in sewing/tailoring and has the tools. She wants to use the scissors from her tools with her invisible Mage Hand to cut the leather thong holding the key. How would you rule that?
Hmm. With proficiency in the tool and the Telekinetic feat, I'd probably just use the character's ranged spell attack bonus and come up with an AC for the thong (maybe 12 or thereabouts) as a proxy for the skill check. If they aren't a spellcaster, ranged attack but subbing in whatever stat got boosted by Telekinetic for DEX. I'm assuming if you've got both those things, you have a lot of practice using your telekinetic mage hand to assist you in your tailoring, and it's just one snip, albeit against a moving target
If they lacked one of those two elements (so only the feat, or only tool proficiency while casting the mage hand cantrip normally) I'd make it a straight check against your spellcasting stat with a higher DC
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think as a player I would be happy with either of those answers. Mage Hand is a spell that I find requires judgement calls from the DM more often than not. Sure, opening a box or taking a key ring off a hook is obvious, but in my experience players come up ideas that are not well covered by the spell text.
Have a look at what Arcane Trickster does for Rogues. It grants the following additional things that you can do with Mage Hand:
You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can use thieves’ tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.
You could infer that these things are not possible for anyone else using the basic Mage Hand spell.
I don't disagree with this, but none of that is well covered under the spell itself except for maybe the Locks part since the spell says that it can open an unlocked door or container. I often go with the "a spell only does what it says it does" but that is hard to do with Mage Hand because "manipulate an object" is vague.
If the Arcane Trickster ability didn't exist, would that change your thoughts on what Mage Hand can do?
The key on a necklace is not an item in a container. It is clearly visible. So it should be possible for a character to use mage hand to affect the key in some way.
Questions to resolve:
1) The mage hand can only exert 10lbs of "force". This really isn't that much. Is it enough to break the leather thong the key is on? If it is then have the player make a skill check - likely sleight of hand to get a grasp on the key - after they have a grip, a second skill check or strength check to determine if the necklace breaks.
2) Is it possible to lift the key and thong over the minotaurs head and off that way? This would probably be a sleight of hand check with a higher DC than 1 but without the second check.
3) If neither 1 or 2 are reasonably possible then can the characters attempt to use the mage hand with a tool or weapon to cut the thong? Could a character try to use an attack to hit the key/necklace rather than the opponent? This might come under the optional disarming rules in the DMG depending on how the DM wants to rule it.
Anyway, it is a cool idea and the player should be allowed to attempt it since there isn't nothing forbidding such an activity as far as I know.
Have a look at what Arcane Trickster does for Rogues. It grants the following additional things that you can do with Mage Hand:
You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can use thieves’ tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.
You could infer that these things are not possible for anyone else using the basic Mage Hand spell.
I've always interpreted that as rogue-oriented activities like picking pockets, planting evidence etc.
In any case, grabbing at something in plain view hanging around their neck is different/simpler than retrieving or stowing something "in a container"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Grabbing something hanging around their neck is very possible - lifting it off their head is a bit more difficult, since they will probably be applying more than 10 lbs of force to prevent the necklace being removed.
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
True. It definitely would be the direct way of approaching allowing such an action but I'd also feel like I'm taking away the agency with creativity with the players' solutions. BUT, Mage Hand is used a lot in my games and I try to ask questions on the forums so I can understand its mechanic what it can and cannot do in the more creative use of the spell. The more I know...yeah, yeah half the battle ...which I can then say how it functions.
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
Again, mage hand isn't very strong -- trying to yank something out of someone's hand with it is going to be a lot more difficult
I'm not even sure I would make that a contested STR check right away. I'd give the player/NPC holding the focus a Perception check to see if they notice the mage hand headed their way, and if they do, they'd automatically win a STR contest against it. If they didn't, only then would the mage hand even have a chance
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Grabbing something hanging around their neck is very possible - lifting it off their head is a bit more difficult, since they will probably be applying more than 10 lbs of force to prevent the necklace being removed.
Yep .. I would agree. The check made to lift the key off over the minotaurs head would include whether the minotaur noticed the key being lifted. Noticing and securing the key would be the most likely reason that the Sleight of Hand check failed. That outcome would need to be factored into the DC that the DM set for the task. The DC might also depend on whether the minotaur had a hand free. If they have a shield in one hand and an axe in the other then grabbing the key might not be so easy (reducing the DC as a result).
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
True. It definitely would be the direct way of approaching allowing such an action but I'd also feel like I'm taking away the agency with creativity with the players' solutions. BUT, Mage Hand is used a lot in my games and I try to ask questions on the forums so I can understand its mechanic what it can and cannot do in the more creative use of the spell. The more I know...yeah, yeah half the battle ...which I can then say how it functions.
It probably gets used a lot in your campaign because you bow to "player agency" in allowing them to use it for more than is allowed by RAW.
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
True. It definitely would be the direct way of approaching allowing such an action but I'd also feel like I'm taking away the agency with creativity with the players' solutions. BUT, Mage Hand is used a lot in my games and I try to ask questions on the forums so I can understand its mechanic what it can and cannot do in the more creative use of the spell. The more I know...yeah, yeah half the battle ...which I can then say how it functions.
It probably gets used a lot in your campaign because you bow to "player agency" in allowing them to use it for more than is allowed by RAW.
It probably gets used a lot in your campaign because you bow to "player agency" in allowing them to use it for more than is allowed by RAW.
The rules can't cover every possible scenario, so it tells us what the hand is and isn't capable of (interact with every manner of non-magic object, lift 10 lb, can't attack). Taking a key off a creature doesn't break any of the rules of the spell, so it isn't necessarily "more than is allowed by RAW," and completely up to the DM to decide.
You have to dig around for tangential rules that suggest other things the hand is not capable of.
I'm quite sure it wasn't, although it looks like the comment has been ethered either way
It can be a fine line between "rewarding player creativity" and "letting them get away with murder and overpowering a cantrip", but allowing mage hand to be used to grab things doesn't come close to that line
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So Mage Hand to float a key and use it to unlock a door. I went with it was allowed since the key was under 10 pounds and there is no ability check required to perform this action.
So Mage Hand to float a key and use it to unlock a door. I went with it was allowed since the key was under 10 pounds and there is no ability check required to perform this action.
Is this a different scenario now?
Yeah, that is fine. Mage hand can interact with objects which using a key qualifies as.
So Mage Hand to float a key and use it to unlock a door. I went with it was allowed since the key was under 10 pounds and there is no ability check required to perform this action.
Is this a different scenario now?
Yeah, that is fine. Mage hand can interact with objects which using a key qualifies as.
Yeah, I could justify creating a new post since the topic was sort of related I thought to just throw it out here.
Thanks!
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Hmm. With proficiency in the tool and the Telekinetic feat, I'd probably just use the character's ranged spell attack bonus and come up with an AC for the thong (maybe 12 or thereabouts) as a proxy for the skill check. If they aren't a spellcaster, ranged attack but subbing in whatever stat got boosted by Telekinetic for DEX. I'm assuming if you've got both those things, you have a lot of practice using your telekinetic mage hand to assist you in your tailoring, and it's just one snip, albeit against a moving target
If they lacked one of those two elements (so only the feat, or only tool proficiency while casting the mage hand cantrip normally) I'd make it a straight check against your spellcasting stat with a higher DC
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think as a player I would be happy with either of those answers. Mage Hand is a spell that I find requires judgement calls from the DM more often than not. Sure, opening a box or taking a key ring off a hook is obvious, but in my experience players come up ideas that are not well covered by the spell text.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Have a look at what Arcane Trickster does for Rogues. It grants the following additional things that you can do with Mage Hand:
You could infer that these things are not possible for anyone else using the basic Mage Hand spell.
I don't disagree with this, but none of that is well covered under the spell itself except for maybe the Locks part since the spell says that it can open an unlocked door or container. I often go with the "a spell only does what it says it does" but that is hard to do with Mage Hand because "manipulate an object" is vague.
If the Arcane Trickster ability didn't exist, would that change your thoughts on what Mage Hand can do?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The key on a necklace is not an item in a container. It is clearly visible. So it should be possible for a character to use mage hand to affect the key in some way.
Questions to resolve:
1) The mage hand can only exert 10lbs of "force". This really isn't that much. Is it enough to break the leather thong the key is on? If it is then have the player make a skill check - likely sleight of hand to get a grasp on the key - after they have a grip, a second skill check or strength check to determine if the necklace breaks.
2) Is it possible to lift the key and thong over the minotaurs head and off that way? This would probably be a sleight of hand check with a higher DC than 1 but without the second check.
3) If neither 1 or 2 are reasonably possible then can the characters attempt to use the mage hand with a tool or weapon to cut the thong? Could a character try to use an attack to hit the key/necklace rather than the opponent? This might come under the optional disarming rules in the DMG depending on how the DM wants to rule it.
Anyway, it is a cool idea and the player should be allowed to attempt it since there isn't nothing forbidding such an activity as far as I know.
I've always interpreted that as rogue-oriented activities like picking pockets, planting evidence etc.
In any case, grabbing at something in plain view hanging around their neck is different/simpler than retrieving or stowing something "in a container"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Grabbing something hanging around their neck is very possible - lifting it off their head is a bit more difficult, since they will probably be applying more than 10 lbs of force to prevent the necklace being removed.
Turn it around on the players. Ask them, "Would you be comfortable with foes using this to steal items from your characters? For example, someone stealing <cleric>'s holy symbol so they can't turn undead, or someone stealing <mage>'s arcane focus, so they can't cast spells? Are you OK with this? If so, what sort of roll or contest should it be?"
True. It definitely would be the direct way of approaching allowing such an action but I'd also feel like I'm taking away the agency with creativity with the players' solutions. BUT, Mage Hand is used a lot in my games and I try to ask questions on the forums so I can understand its mechanic what it can and cannot do in the more creative use of the spell. The more I know...yeah, yeah half the battle ...which I can then say how it functions.
Again, mage hand isn't very strong -- trying to yank something out of someone's hand with it is going to be a lot more difficult
I'm not even sure I would make that a contested STR check right away. I'd give the player/NPC holding the focus a Perception check to see if they notice the mage hand headed their way, and if they do, they'd automatically win a STR contest against it. If they didn't, only then would the mage hand even have a chance
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yep .. I would agree. The check made to lift the key off over the minotaurs head would include whether the minotaur noticed the key being lifted. Noticing and securing the key would be the most likely reason that the Sleight of Hand check failed. That outcome would need to be factored into the DC that the DM set for the task. The DC might also depend on whether the minotaur had a hand free. If they have a shield in one hand and an axe in the other then grabbing the key might not be so easy (reducing the DC as a result).
It probably gets used a lot in your campaign because you bow to "player agency" in allowing them to use it for more than is allowed by RAW.
Ouch.
I was not sure if that was directed at me or not.
The rules can't cover every possible scenario, so it tells us what the hand is and isn't capable of (interact with every manner of non-magic object, lift 10 lb, can't attack). Taking a key off a creature doesn't break any of the rules of the spell, so it isn't necessarily "more than is allowed by RAW," and completely up to the DM to decide.
You have to dig around for tangential rules that suggest other things the hand is not capable of.
I'm quite sure it wasn't, although it looks like the comment has been ethered either way
It can be a fine line between "rewarding player creativity" and "letting them get away with murder and overpowering a cantrip", but allowing mage hand to be used to grab things doesn't come close to that line
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So Mage Hand to float a key and use it to unlock a door. I went with it was allowed since the key was under 10 pounds and there is no ability check required to perform this action.
Is this a different scenario now?
Yeah, that is fine. Mage hand can interact with objects which using a key qualifies as.
Yeah, I could justify creating a new post since the topic was sort of related I thought to just throw it out here.
Thanks!