I am confused and frustrated by this argument and I don't want to play anymore. We seem to agree on the RAW on how spellcasting foci and spellcasting components work for everything except this 1 feat.
But you have ignored every one of my several attempts to clarify how the third bullet point of artificer initiate is different from the spellcasting focus rules of every single spellcasting class in the PHB that uses the exact same sentence structure as the feat.
So I want just this next question answered (with a short answer please) so we can hopefully make progress and break the loop of constant "because the 3rd bullet point says I can" with no elaboration:
What is the difference between:
you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
And:
You can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your paladin spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
The disconnect as you call it is not in my logic but the wording of the 3rd bullet point which specifically allows you to cast any spell... any spell... any spell counts as spells without M as their component.
That is just flat out weird and unusual, people don't usually cast spells with a focus that don't have M as a component. It doesn't make much of a difference and doesn't affect anything in the game.
Except for that exception I pointed out to make a big fat chunky dart damage for magic missile.
A way to have it 3 turns earlier than an evocation wizard.
Of course there's another simpler way to get a big boi shard. Take wildfire druid to 6th level to get the Enhanced Bond feature. So long as your wildfire spirit is summoned you can roll a d8 and add it to a spell that deals fire damage. You'll also need 2 levels in scribe for this combo also so that you can once again use the Awakened Spellbook feature to switch the damage type to fire.
Go go big darts, no shield spells. Whammy!
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
And you follow the spell casting rules for the spells you cast? Or do you get to do whatever you want? Because I think most people would say that you still follow the rules: You keep saying that you don’t.
The rules for a V,S spell don’t use a focus. That is all. NOTHING in the feat changes it.
But when i saw that this feat has RAW that allowed me to cast a spell with a focus that didn't have a M component, I thought this was a pretty specific wording that got around the general rule that we all accept and play by.
I have a question for you about the difference between the Artificer Initiate feat and other rules regarding focuses. And I think that if you are going to have any hope at all of getting anyone to agree with you this is something that you need to explain your reasoning about.
The Artificer Initiate feat says:
and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
So it allows the use of a focus and the limiter is "for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability".
The Wizard spellcasting feature says:
You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
So it allows the use of a focus and the limiter is "for your wizard spells".
Neither instance mentions Material components or says anything specific about it being limited to spells with Material components or any additional requirements tbh. Sure the Artificer Initiate feat uses the word "any" but the Wizard feature is even more open ended with just saying "your wizard spells".
So here's my questions. What difference is there between the two that makes you think that the Artificer Initiate feat allows for the casting of non-M spells through the focus when the Wizard feature doesn't allow it? Because I really don't see any material difference (no pun intended) between the two that would make them work differently.
These are the rules for components under spellcasting:
Components
A spell’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Now while there are some interesting interactions between needing a free hand to handle the material components of a spell, or to hold a focus, and if you hold the focus it can be the same hand that you use for the somatic components of a spell.
I believe there's even an errata that states if a spell has S but no M and you're holding a focus in one of your hands and don't have the other hand free then you can't cast the spell. Even though they allow the more complex and complicated interaction of being able to cast a spell with even more component demands than just S, such as S,M or V,S,M and allow you to cast that spell while holding a focus and not having a free hand.
One of the only differences I can see between all the spellcasting foci that are allowed for each type of caster is that those are general rules for those casters.
The feat I am referencing does share a lot of the same language and in the same order. But where I feel there is a significant difference is that this is not a general rule but a specific exemption rule. It allows me to use Alchemist's Supplies (artisan's tools of your choice) to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
DxJxC
The difference is all those examples allow you to use a particular focus as a focus FOR your particular class spells.
The feat allows me to use a particular focus to CAST ANY SPELL that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
In all the examples you quoted you are allowed to use a certain thing as a focus FOR your spells.
The specific wording of the feat not only allows me to use a particular focus as a focus but to also use that focus to CAST ANY SPELL.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The disconnect as you call it is not in my logic but the wording of the 3rd bullet point which specifically allows you to cast any spell... any spell... any spell counts as spells without M as their component.
So the problem is that WotC made a first rule for spellcasting foci not tied to a specific class and expected everyone to agree the general language "any spell that uses intelligence" didn't mean "material and somatic component rules are a suggestion."
You still run into the same logical problems as every class based spellcasting focus rule: How come "any spell that uses intelligence" means "any spell that uses intelligence including any non-material spell," but "your cleric spells" doesn't mean "your cleric spells including any non-material spells"?
That is just flat out weird and unusual. People can't usually cast spells with a focus that don't have M as a component. It doesn't make much of a difference and doesn't affect anything in the game.
*fixed.
Also, the fact that it does make some difference is the point.
The difference is all those examples allow you to use a particular focus as a focus FOR your particular class spells.
The feat allows me to use a particular focus to CAST ANY SPELL that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
In all the examples you quoted you are allowed to use a certain thing as a focus FOR your spells.
The specific wording of the feat not only allows me to use a particular focus as a focus but to also use that focus to CAST ANY SPELL.
No. What?
The specific wording of the feat (that you hardly ever quoted entirely, so not surprised you haven't read it as many times as everyone else here) also used "for".
Literally your entire argument against class foci working the same way as you think the feat works applies equally to the RAW feat.
This discussion is going in circles and nobody is gaining or losing ground. So, let's go back to the fundamentals and define exactly what we're saying.
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
Exceptions to the rules are often minor. For instance, many adventurers don’t have proficiency with longbows, but every wood elf does because of a racial trait. That trait creates a minor exception in the game. Other examples of rule-breaking are more conspicuous. For instance, an adventurer can’t normally pass through walls, but some spells make that possible. Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
In other words, the general rule applies UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
General Rules
There are not one, not two, but three general rules that are relevant to this discussion. I'll color code them for later use.
A spell’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell.
This general rule says that each spell's necessary components are listed in the spell's description, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or aspellcasting focusin place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
This general rule defines the purpose of a component pouch or spellcasting focus - that is, to replace the material components for spells which require material components that don't have a listed cost. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no other defined purpose for a component pouch or spellcasting focus anywhere else in the rules. If there aren't material components, then there is nothing for the focus to replace and so the focus can't be used, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
This one varies slightly by class, but the core of the text is as follows. The link is for the wizard class in particular, but the same formula can be seen in other classes as well.
You can use a [type of focus] as a spellcasting focus for your [class] spells.
Simply put, each class has a certain type of focus that can be used as a spellcasting focus (that is, used to replace material components) for spells of that class. The class can use that type of focus and only that type of focus to replace the material components, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
Let's take a look at how these general rules - and any specific exceptions to them - play out for the wizard, the artificer, and other sources (anything besides base classes) that grant the ability to cast spells, since those three groups are the three that are eligible for the apparently oh-so-important third bullet point of artificer initiate. It should be noted that subclasses such as eldritch knights and arcane tricksters fall into the third group in this case.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1: The base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 1. Spell components work as normal, meaning the necessary components are listed in the spell description.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2: The base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 2. Casting with a spellcasting focus works as normal, meaning an arcane focus can be used to replace material components of spells that require them in the spell description.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3: You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
This is not an exception, but it's still worth pointing out. Wizards can use an arcane focus, and only an arcane focus, as a spellcasting focus to replace material components. Other than that, the base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 3.
However, for the sake of example, an order of scribes wizard can use their spellbook as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells. Normally a wizard couldn't, because the spellbook is not an arcane focus, but in this specific instance they can.
The artificer is an interesting case. It will be easier to just look at the text and color code the bits that are relevant to each general rule.
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
All artificer spells have a material component - your tools being used as a spellcasting focus - whether the spell's description lists a material component or not.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
You must have a spellcasting focus in hand. There's no option to just use the normal material components and not your focus if a spell already requires them, you have to have your focus regardless.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
The artificer's defined type of spellcasting focus is a set of thieves' tools or artisan's tools. At level 2, they gain a specific addition that allows them to also use an infused item.
Specific Rules: Spells From Other Sources
These will vary by source, but here are some things to look for.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
Components work as normally stated in the spell description, unless a given feature allows you to cast the spell without a certain type of components, or without components altogether.
For example, the forest gnome grants the ability to cast minor illusion, which requires material components. Because there is nothing saying that they can cast it without material components, they still need to provide the material components or use a component pouch.
However, the mark of warding dwarf grants the ability to cast alarm, mage armor, and arcane lock, all of which require material components, but it has the specific exception that "you don’t need material components for them when you cast them with this trait."
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
As far as I'm aware, there are no specific rules in the game aside from the artificer's spellcasting that change how a spellcasting focus works. Replacing material components works as normal - if a spell requires material components, you can replace them with a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus if the source allows it.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
If a given source allows you to use a spellcasting focus of some type, then you may use that to replace material components for spells of that source (or spells specified by the source) that require material components. If it does not give you that specific allowance, you must provide the material components or use a component pouch.
You’ve learned some of an artificer’s inventiveness:
You learn one cantrip of your choice from the artificer spell list, and you learn one 1st-level spell of your choice from that list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
You can cast this feat’s 1st-level spell without a spell slot, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
None. The feat lacks the specific exception to General Rule 1 that is present in the artificer's spellcasting. Therefore, it is listed in a given spell's description whether that spell requires a material component.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
None. The feat does not change the fact that a spellcasting focus is used to replace material components and only to replace material components. Therefore, if a spell does not have material components listed in its description, then the artisan's tools can't be used as a spellcasting focus for that spell.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
This is a specific exception to General Rule 3, in the same way that the order of scribes makes an exception. Even if the class or other source does not say that you can use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus to replace the material components of those spells, you can use artisan's tools in this specific case as long as those spells use intelligence as their spellcasting ability.
The 2nd bullet point from the awakened spellbook is what I would use to change the damage type to one that is compatible with the alchemical savant feature so that I could indeed add my INT bonus to the damage roll of the magic missile spell.
Take another look at the second bullet point of awakened spellbook:
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
Now, take another look at alchemical savant:
You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
Wizards cannot cast wizard spells with alchemist's supplies as the spellcasting focus, so these two features don't interact by default.
But what about the third bullet point of artificer initiate?
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Sounds okay, right? Only if you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from this feat. But as an alchemist, you already have proficiency with alchemist's supplies, so this doesn't work.
HOWEVER, there is still a way of making it work. If you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from the feat prior to becoming an alchemist, you can use alchemist's supplies to cast magic missile as a wizard spell, and therefore you could change the damage type to one that is valid for alchemical savant and add the extra damage. It's a super convoluted way of going about it, but you could technically do that.
HOWEVER, there is still a way of making it work. If you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from the feat prior to becoming an alchemist, you can use alchemist's supplies to cast magic missile as a wizard spell, and therefore you could change the damage type to one that is valid for alchemical savant and add the extra damage. It's a super convoluted way of going about it, but you could technically do that.
You were on the money until this point. Magic missile does not require a material component, so isn't cast with a focus such as the required alchemist supplies.
Though this ruling is the point of contention of this thread. But only 1 is arguing that magic missile can be cast using the alchemist supplies as a focus, the rest of us disagree.
From the How To Play section in the Introduction for the Players Handbook:
"Specific Beats General
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins."
One of the only differences I can see between all the spellcasting foci that are allowed for each type of caster is that those are general rules for those casters.
The feat I am referencing does share a lot of the same language and in the same order. But where I feel there is a significant difference is that this is not a general rule but a specific exemption rule. It allows me to use Alchemist's Supplies (artisan's tools of your choice) to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The rules governing spellcasting focuses apply to all players (you quoted them in the same post I quoted here, I removed it for brevity). You agree that the wording from spellcasting class features governing their use of spellcasting focuses is very similar to the wording used in the Artificer Initiate feat. You justify handling them differently by asserting that class features are a general rule and the feat is a specific rule.
From the section about Specific Beats General we can see that class features are an explicit example of a specific rule that would beat a general rule. It appears that your interpretation of the rules is in conflict with the rules as they are written.
HOWEVER, there is still a way of making it work. If you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from the feat prior to becoming an alchemist, you can use alchemist's supplies to cast magic missile as a wizard spell, and therefore you could change the damage type to one that is valid for alchemical savant and add the extra damage. It's a super convoluted way of going about it, but you could technically do that.
You were on the money until this point. Magic missile does not require a material component, so isn't cast with a focus such as the required alchemist supplies.
Though this ruling is the point of contention of this thread. But only 1 is arguing that magic missile can be cast using the alchemist supplies as a focus, the rest of us disagree.
Ah, yep. I missed that. Whoops. That's what I get for not having the spell in front of me lol. 😅
If you cast magic missile as an artificer spell (from armorer) it would have a material components and you could use, your alchemist's supplies, but then you couldn't change the damage type and wouldn't be an alchemist to use alchemical savant. So yeah, it just plain doesn't work. My bad.
From the How To Play section in the Introduction for the Players Handbook:
"Specific Beats General
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins."
One of the only differences I can see between all the spellcasting foci that are allowed for each type of caster is that those are general rules for those casters.
The feat I am referencing does share a lot of the same language and in the same order. But where I feel there is a significant difference is that this is not a general rule but a specific exemption rule. It allows me to use Alchemist's Supplies (artisan's tools of your choice) to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The rules governing spellcasting focuses apply to all players (you quoted them in the same post I quoted here, I removed it for brevity). You agree that the wording from spellcasting class features governing their use of spellcasting focuses is very similar to the wording used in the Artificer Initiate feat. You justify handling them differently by asserting that class features are a general rule and the feat is a specific rule.
From the section about Specific Beats General we can see that class features are an explicit example of a specific rule that would beat a general rule. It appears that your interpretation of the rules is in conflict with the rules as they are written.
General: a wizard (for example) doesn't have proficiency with longbows.
Specific: a high elf wizard has proficiency with longbows.
General: a wizard can't use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Specific: a wizard with artificer initiate can use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Nowhere in the feat does it change how a spellcasting focus can be used when you have the feat, so there's no exception to the general rule about how a spellcasting focus can be used. A spellcasting focus is used to replace material components and only to replace material components if a spell calls for them, because that's its only defined purpose.
In other words, the feat changes what you can use, not how the thing you use works.
General: a wizard (for example) doesn't have proficiency with longbows.
Specific: a high elf wizard has proficiency with longbows.
General: a wizard can't use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Specific: a wizard with artificer initiate can use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Your conclusion is right, but this isn't a good example of specific versus general. Wizard doesn't say it can't use bows or artisan tools, it just doesn't say it can. The absence of any rule is not a general rule.
A real example of specific versus general is artificer's "tools required" which not only states in no uncertain terms a rule that conflicts with the material component rules, but then also calls out that rule and outright says how it changes it (a rare example of a well written rule in 5e).
You must have a spellcasting focus in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it).
In an attempt to simplify the rules in question and hopefully not make a post that is too long and will not be read in its entirety I am going to copy/paste the feat for easy reference. Then below that I will attempt to explain more clearly why what I am proposing will work according to RAW.
Artificer Initiate
You’ve learned some of an artificer’s inventiveness:
You learn one cantrip of your choice from the artificer spell list, and you learn one 1st-level spell of your choice from that list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
You can cast this feat’s 1st-level spell without a spell slot, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
The 3rd bullet point not only allows me to choose which artisan's tools I gain proficiency with but to also use those artisan's tools to cast any spell.
There is a limitation to the choice of 'any spell' but it is not whether or not it has M in its components requirement. It is that the spell I select must use INT as its spellcasting ability.
This is written quite clearly within the 3rd bullet point and if we follow RAW there is no wiggle room to say things like yeah but they mean any spell that has M for a component. If we all start adding or interpreting things like that we stray from RAW and end up in RAI or somewhere else.
Another example to help demonstrate how this works by RAW is a Rogue class character can take this feat and choose Cook's utensils for his artisan's tools and the Catapult spell for his any spell choice.
Again, by following RAW this Rogue can now use Cook's utensils to cast the Catapult spell because he selected the Catapult spell from the Artificer's spell list and that qualifies as a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Even though the Catapult spell doesn't have M listed under its components either.
I agree wholeheartedly with everyone who has been saying you can only use a focus to cast spells the require a M component. This is how things normally work. But the RAW of the 3rd bullet point of the feat states quite simply and explicitly 'any spell'... it does not say any spell that requires concentration, it does not say any spell that is a ritual, it does not say any spell so long as it has M has a component... it just says 'any spell'
Any spell translates under RAW into any spell, that's right, it doesn't change at all, nothing is added, nothing is subtracted, and any other thing that would normally apply now takes a backseat to the exact wording of any spell.
If a rule says you can choose any spell, then by RAW you can choose any spell.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
And:
You can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your paladin spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
?
I am still waiting on a solution to this problem that does not contain cognitive dissonance.
The solution to this problem that OP has arrived at is to just lie about what the text of Artificer Initiate says. There's no arguing with that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The unique text in the Artificer Initiate feat serves a purpose other than to allow you to use a focus on spells that don't need one (which it doesn't do). I think maybe that's what Brian is ignoring here? It serves to allow you to use the focus not only for the specific Artificer spells you learned via the feat, but also for your existing Artificer or Wizard spells, or even Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster spells.
If all it did was force you to use a specific focus for a tiny handful of spells, then I'd be more inclined to agree that it's meant to do something it doesn't actually do by RAW.
With the right folding pattern, you can use a folded up newspaper as a hat. You still need to put it on your head, though. Otherwise you're not using it as a hat, you're just holding it. With the right feat, you can use tools as a focus. You still need to replace an existing material component, though. Otherwise you're not using it as a focus, you're just holding it.
you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
And:
You can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your paladin spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
?
I am still waiting on a solution to this problem that does not contain cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, the response was that the feat doesn't use the word "for" and instead uses "to cast". Of course I pointed out that the sentence that I copypasted from the feat did infact have the word "for" in the same place and used the same way as the other features.
The new story seems to be that the feat now let's him cast any spell of his choice using the tools as a focus and INT becomes the spellcasting modifier.
Thats the way the argument is worded anyway. Almost needs to change the argument that much after so plainly debunking his previous argument with his own logic.
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I am confused and frustrated by this argument and I don't want to play anymore. We seem to agree on the RAW on how spellcasting foci and spellcasting components work for everything except this 1 feat.
But you have ignored every one of my several attempts to clarify how the third bullet point of artificer initiate is different from the spellcasting focus rules of every single spellcasting class in the PHB that uses the exact same sentence structure as the feat.
So I want just this next question answered (with a short answer please) so we can hopefully make progress and break the loop of constant "because the 3rd bullet point says I can" with no elaboration:
What is the difference between:
And:
?
The disconnect as you call it is not in my logic but the wording of the 3rd bullet point which specifically allows you to cast any spell... any spell... any spell counts as spells without M as their component.
That is just flat out weird and unusual, people don't usually cast spells with a focus that don't have M as a component. It doesn't make much of a difference and doesn't affect anything in the game.
Except for that exception I pointed out to make a big fat chunky dart damage for magic missile.
A way to have it 3 turns earlier than an evocation wizard.
Of course there's another simpler way to get a big boi shard. Take wildfire druid to 6th level to get the Enhanced Bond feature. So long as your wildfire spirit is summoned you can roll a d8 and add it to a spell that deals fire damage. You'll also need 2 levels in scribe for this combo also so that you can once again use the Awakened Spellbook feature to switch the damage type to fire.
Go go big darts, no shield spells. Whammy!
And you follow the spell casting rules for the spells you cast? Or do you get to do whatever you want? Because I think most people would say that you still follow the rules: You keep saying that you don’t.
The rules for a V,S spell don’t use a focus. That is all. NOTHING in the feat changes it.
I have a question for you about the difference between the Artificer Initiate feat and other rules regarding focuses. And I think that if you are going to have any hope at all of getting anyone to agree with you this is something that you need to explain your reasoning about.
The Artificer Initiate feat says:
So it allows the use of a focus and the limiter is "for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability".
The Wizard spellcasting feature says:
So it allows the use of a focus and the limiter is "for your wizard spells".
Neither instance mentions Material components or says anything specific about it being limited to spells with Material components or any additional requirements tbh. Sure the Artificer Initiate feat uses the word "any" but the Wizard feature is even more open ended with just saying "your wizard spells".
So here's my questions. What difference is there between the two that makes you think that the Artificer Initiate feat allows for the casting of non-M spells through the focus when the Wizard feature doesn't allow it? Because I really don't see any material difference (no pun intended) between the two that would make them work differently.
These are the rules for components under spellcasting:
Components
A spell’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Now while there are some interesting interactions between needing a free hand to handle the material components of a spell, or to hold a focus, and if you hold the focus it can be the same hand that you use for the somatic components of a spell.
I believe there's even an errata that states if a spell has S but no M and you're holding a focus in one of your hands and don't have the other hand free then you can't cast the spell. Even though they allow the more complex and complicated interaction of being able to cast a spell with even more component demands than just S, such as S,M or V,S,M and allow you to cast that spell while holding a focus and not having a free hand.
One of the only differences I can see between all the spellcasting foci that are allowed for each type of caster is that those are general rules for those casters.
The feat I am referencing does share a lot of the same language and in the same order. But where I feel there is a significant difference is that this is not a general rule but a specific exemption rule. It allows me to use Alchemist's Supplies (artisan's tools of your choice) to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
DxJxC
The difference is all those examples allow you to use a particular focus as a focus FOR your particular class spells.
The feat allows me to use a particular focus to CAST ANY SPELL that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
In all the examples you quoted you are allowed to use a certain thing as a focus FOR your spells.
The specific wording of the feat not only allows me to use a particular focus as a focus but to also use that focus to CAST ANY SPELL.
So the problem is that WotC made a first rule for spellcasting foci not tied to a specific class and expected everyone to agree the general language "any spell that uses intelligence" didn't mean "material and somatic component rules are a suggestion."
You still run into the same logical problems as every class based spellcasting focus rule: How come "any spell that uses intelligence" means "any spell that uses intelligence including any non-material spell," but "your cleric spells" doesn't mean "your cleric spells including any non-material spells"?
*fixed.
Also, the fact that it does make some difference is the point.
No. What?
The specific wording of the feat (that you hardly ever quoted entirely, so not surprised you haven't read it as many times as everyone else here) also used "for".
Literally your entire argument against class foci working the same way as you think the feat works applies equally to the RAW feat.
This discussion is going in circles and nobody is gaining or losing ground. So, let's go back to the fundamentals and define exactly what we're saying.
Specific vs. General
In other words, the general rule applies UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
General Rules
There are not one, not two, but three general rules that are relevant to this discussion. I'll color code them for later use.
This general rule says that each spell's necessary components are listed in the spell's description, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
This general rule defines the purpose of a component pouch or spellcasting focus - that is, to replace the material components for spells which require material components that don't have a listed cost. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no other defined purpose for a component pouch or spellcasting focus anywhere else in the rules. If there aren't material components, then there is nothing for the focus to replace and so the focus can't be used, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
Simply put, each class has a certain type of focus that can be used as a spellcasting focus (that is, used to replace material components) for spells of that class. The class can use that type of focus and only that type of focus to replace the material components, UNLESS a rule specifically says otherwise.
Let's take a look at how these general rules - and any specific exceptions to them - play out for the wizard, the artificer, and other sources (anything besides base classes) that grant the ability to cast spells, since those three groups are the three that are eligible for the apparently oh-so-important third bullet point of artificer initiate. It should be noted that subclasses such as eldritch knights and arcane tricksters fall into the third group in this case.
Specific Rules: Wizard
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1: The base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 1. Spell components work as normal, meaning the necessary components are listed in the spell description.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2: The base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 2. Casting with a spellcasting focus works as normal, meaning an arcane focus can be used to replace material components of spells that require them in the spell description.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3: You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
This is not an exception, but it's still worth pointing out. Wizards can use an arcane focus, and only an arcane focus, as a spellcasting focus to replace material components. Other than that, the base wizard class does not have any specific rules that interact with General Rule 3.
However, for the sake of example, an order of scribes wizard can use their spellbook as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells. Normally a wizard couldn't, because the spellbook is not an arcane focus, but in this specific instance they can.
Specific Rules: Artificer
The artificer is an interesting case. It will be easier to just look at the text and color code the bits that are relevant to each general rule.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
All artificer spells have a material component - your tools being used as a spellcasting focus - whether the spell's description lists a material component or not.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
You must have a spellcasting focus in hand. There's no option to just use the normal material components and not your focus if a spell already requires them, you have to have your focus regardless.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
The artificer's defined type of spellcasting focus is a set of thieves' tools or artisan's tools. At level 2, they gain a specific addition that allows them to also use an infused item.
Specific Rules: Spells From Other Sources
These will vary by source, but here are some things to look for.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
Components work as normally stated in the spell description, unless a given feature allows you to cast the spell without a certain type of components, or without components altogether.
For example, the forest gnome grants the ability to cast minor illusion, which requires material components. Because there is nothing saying that they can cast it without material components, they still need to provide the material components or use a component pouch.
However, the mark of warding dwarf grants the ability to cast alarm, mage armor, and arcane lock, all of which require material components, but it has the specific exception that "you don’t need material components for them when you cast them with this trait."
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
As far as I'm aware, there are no specific rules in the game aside from the artificer's spellcasting that change how a spellcasting focus works. Replacing material components works as normal - if a spell requires material components, you can replace them with a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus if the source allows it.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
If a given source allows you to use a spellcasting focus of some type, then you may use that to replace material components for spells of that source (or spells specified by the source) that require material components. If it does not give you that specific allowance, you must provide the material components or use a component pouch.
Specific Rules: Artificer Initiate
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 1:
None. The feat lacks the specific exception to General Rule 1 that is present in the artificer's spellcasting. Therefore, it is listed in a given spell's description whether that spell requires a material component.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 2:
None. The feat does not change the fact that a spellcasting focus is used to replace material components and only to replace material components. Therefore, if a spell does not have material components listed in its description, then the artisan's tools can't be used as a spellcasting focus for that spell.
Specific rules relevant to General Rule 3:
This is a specific exception to General Rule 3, in the same way that the order of scribes makes an exception. Even if the class or other source does not say that you can use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus to replace the material components of those spells, you can use artisan's tools in this specific case as long as those spells use intelligence as their spellcasting ability.
Take another look at the second bullet point of awakened spellbook:
Now, take another look at alchemical savant:
Wizards cannot cast wizard spells with alchemist's supplies as the spellcasting focus, so these two features don't interact by default.
But what about the third bullet point of artificer initiate?
Sounds okay, right? Only if you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from this feat. But as an alchemist, you already have proficiency with alchemist's supplies, so this doesn't work.
HOWEVER, there is still a way of making it work. If you gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies from the feat prior to becoming an alchemist, you can use alchemist's supplies to cast magic missile as a wizard spell, and therefore you could change the damage type to one that is valid for alchemical savant and add the extra damage. It's a super convoluted way of going about it, but you could technically do that.
You were on the money until this point. Magic missile does not require a material component, so isn't cast with a focus such as the required alchemist supplies.
Though this ruling is the point of contention of this thread. But only 1 is arguing that magic missile can be cast using the alchemist supplies as a focus, the rest of us disagree.
From the How To Play section in the Introduction for the Players Handbook:
"Specific Beats General
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins."
The rules governing spellcasting focuses apply to all players (you quoted them in the same post I quoted here, I removed it for brevity). You agree that the wording from spellcasting class features governing their use of spellcasting focuses is very similar to the wording used in the Artificer Initiate feat. You justify handling them differently by asserting that class features are a general rule and the feat is a specific rule.
From the section about Specific Beats General we can see that class features are an explicit example of a specific rule that would beat a general rule. It appears that your interpretation of the rules is in conflict with the rules as they are written.
Ah, yep. I missed that. Whoops. That's what I get for not having the spell in front of me lol. 😅
If you cast magic missile as an artificer spell (from armorer) it would have a material components and you could use, your alchemist's supplies, but then you couldn't change the damage type and wouldn't be an alchemist to use alchemical savant. So yeah, it just plain doesn't work. My bad.
General: a wizard (for example) doesn't have proficiency with longbows.
Specific: a high elf wizard has proficiency with longbows.
General: a wizard can't use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Specific: a wizard with artificer initiate can use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus for their wizard spells.
Nowhere in the feat does it change how a spellcasting focus can be used when you have the feat, so there's no exception to the general rule about how a spellcasting focus can be used. A spellcasting focus is used to replace material components and only to replace material components if a spell calls for them, because that's its only defined purpose.
In other words, the feat changes what you can use, not how the thing you use works.
Your conclusion is right, but this isn't a good example of specific versus general. Wizard doesn't say it can't use bows or artisan tools, it just doesn't say it can. The absence of any rule is not a general rule.
A real example of specific versus general is artificer's "tools required" which not only states in no uncertain terms a rule that conflicts with the material component rules, but then also calls out that rule and outright says how it changes it (a rare example of a well written rule in 5e).
In an attempt to simplify the rules in question and hopefully not make a post that is too long and will not be read in its entirety I am going to copy/paste the feat for easy reference. Then below that I will attempt to explain more clearly why what I am proposing will work according to RAW.
Artificer Initiate
You’ve learned some of an artificer’s inventiveness:
The 3rd bullet point not only allows me to choose which artisan's tools I gain proficiency with but to also use those artisan's tools to cast any spell.
There is a limitation to the choice of 'any spell' but it is not whether or not it has M in its components requirement. It is that the spell I select must use INT as its spellcasting ability.
This is written quite clearly within the 3rd bullet point and if we follow RAW there is no wiggle room to say things like yeah but they mean any spell that has M for a component. If we all start adding or interpreting things like that we stray from RAW and end up in RAI or somewhere else.
Another example to help demonstrate how this works by RAW is a Rogue class character can take this feat and choose Cook's utensils for his artisan's tools and the Catapult spell for his any spell choice.
Again, by following RAW this Rogue can now use Cook's utensils to cast the Catapult spell because he selected the Catapult spell from the Artificer's spell list and that qualifies as a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Even though the Catapult spell doesn't have M listed under its components either.
I agree wholeheartedly with everyone who has been saying you can only use a focus to cast spells the require a M component. This is how things normally work. But the RAW of the 3rd bullet point of the feat states quite simply and explicitly 'any spell'... it does not say any spell that requires concentration, it does not say any spell that is a ritual, it does not say any spell so long as it has M has a component... it just says 'any spell'
Any spell translates under RAW into any spell, that's right, it doesn't change at all, nothing is added, nothing is subtracted, and any other thing that would normally apply now takes a backseat to the exact wording of any spell.
If a rule says you can choose any spell, then by RAW you can choose any spell.
A spell needs M components to use a focus at all. Evidence: the Tools Required feature of artificers.
There is no evidence otherwise.
I am still waiting on a solution to this problem that does not contain cognitive dissonance.
The solution to this problem that OP has arrived at is to just lie about what the text of Artificer Initiate says. There's no arguing with that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The unique text in the Artificer Initiate feat serves a purpose other than to allow you to use a focus on spells that don't need one (which it doesn't do). I think maybe that's what Brian is ignoring here? It serves to allow you to use the focus not only for the specific Artificer spells you learned via the feat, but also for your existing Artificer or Wizard spells, or even Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster spells.
If all it did was force you to use a specific focus for a tiny handful of spells, then I'd be more inclined to agree that it's meant to do something it doesn't actually do by RAW.
With the right folding pattern, you can use a folded up newspaper as a hat. You still need to put it on your head, though. Otherwise you're not using it as a hat, you're just holding it. With the right feat, you can use tools as a focus. You still need to replace an existing material component, though. Otherwise you're not using it as a focus, you're just holding it.
Yeah, the response was that the feat doesn't use the word "for" and instead uses "to cast". Of course I pointed out that the sentence that I copypasted from the feat did infact have the word "for" in the same place and used the same way as the other features.
The new story seems to be that the feat now let's him cast any spell of his choice using the tools as a focus and INT becomes the spellcasting modifier.
Thats the way the argument is worded anyway. Almost needs to change the argument that much after so plainly debunking his previous argument with his own logic.