There are explicit exceptions, such as the nycaloth's claw attack, but the specter has no such stipulation. Does that mean that if a creature is attacked by a specter several times, only the highest damage roll acts as a penalty to the creature's maximum hit points?
Right, but where does it say that in the rules is the question.
I think there’s a misunderstanding about what a game effect is. Max HP reduction is functionally damage, which is not a “game effect” for purposes of “combining game effects.”
Here’s a question for you: the rules say that effects of the same name don’t stack while their durations overlap. What’s the name of the effect in question? Is it Life Drain? Because Life Drain also reduces current HP until the target takes a long rest (or until it’s restored another way). Does that not stack with itself?
If a spell existed that said “for one hour, the target’s maximum HP is reduced by 10,” multiple castings of that spell wouldn’t stack, just like multiple Aids don’t stack. But the specter’s life drain is fundamentally different. It’s not a named effect with a duration; it’s an attack whose duration is instantaneous with an additional, unnamed effect that lasts until a long rest.
Bottom line is that effect stacking is only relevant for non-instantaneous effects; Life Drain is instantaneous, so the durations never overlap. The long rest is the condition under which the damage is healed, like any other damage, not a duration.
Right, but where does it say that in the rules is the question.
I think there’s a misunderstanding about what a game effect is. Max HP reduction is functionally damage, which is not a “game effect” for purposes of “combining game effects.”
Here’s a question for you: the rules say that effects of the same name don’t stack while their durations overlap. What’s the name of the effect in question? Is it Life Drain? Because Life Drain also reduces current HP until the target takes a long rest (or until it’s restored another way). Does that not stack with itself?
If a spell existed that said “for one hour, the target’s maximum HP is reduced by 10,” multiple castings of that spell wouldn’t stack, just like multiple Aids don’t stack. But the specter’s life drain is fundamentally different. It’s not a named effect with a duration; it’s an attack whose duration is instantaneous with an additional, unnamed effect that lasts until a long rest.
Bottom line is that effect stacking is only relevant for non-instantaneous effects; Life Drain is instantaneous, so the durations never overlap. The long rest is the condition under which the damage is healed, like any other damage, not a duration.
Yes, the name of the effect would be life drain. The damage is instantaneous and stacks yes, but the non-damage effect with the duration "until the creature finishes a long rest" is not instantaneous.
So do continuous effects only not stack when they are spells, or if they have a duration not dependant on rest? Or maybe you are saying that damaging effects that have lasting effects can stack, like fire elemental's fire form.
Like I said, stat damage in 5e isn't treated differently than a specific continuous effect. Nothing about the way life drain is worded treats the max HP reduction like damage or an instantaneous effect and even gives it a specific non-instantaneous duration.
You could just as easily say that any damage you take is a lingering effect with a duration of "until something restores your hit points." It's just that life drain is more specific in the means to undo it.
You could just as easily say that any damage you take is a lingering effect with a duration of "until something restores your hit points." It's just that life drain is more specific in the means to undo it.
No you can't, because damage has rules for what damage is: "Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points." An effect can cause damage, but damage is not an effect.
There are no such rules for stat reduction. The mechanics for stat reduction are contained fully within the effect that causes it, and that effect can't stack unless it specifically says it can (at least according to RAW, as we all know that is not RAI).
I would very much like someone to find the rule that says otherwise, because I don't know it.
Just to be clear, is your position that life drain doesn't stack, and the last sentence is just irrelevant for anyone with 19 or more hit points?
Not to put words in DxJxC's mouth, but there is a difference between being confused on how the rules should function and not being able to show your work.
Just to be clear, is your position that life drain doesn't stack, and the last sentence is just irrelevant for anyone with 19 or more hit points?
Not to put words in DxJxC's mouth, but there is a difference between being confused on how the rules should function and not being able to show your work.
This. I think that it is supposed to stack, but can't find a rule that supports that.
You don't need a rule that supports it. The action already tells you what it does, and we can confirm its purpose by its context. All you have to do is resist the temptation to categorize Life Drain in such a way as to create a conflict. This devil doesn't require an advocate.
You can derive a general sense of what a Life Drain ability does if you look up other creatures with that or similarly-named Drain abilities. Some of the creatures are more explicit in their descriptions as to what they (want) do: Drain a creature multiple times to reduce the applicable stat until it reaches 0. So the stacked effect is implied. But yeah, it could be more specifically stated in the description of the ability/attack.
(Maybe somewhere in one of the books, like the DMG, the * Drain abilities are better defined...)
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Just to be clear, is your position that life drain doesn't stack, and the last sentence is just irrelevant for anyone with 19 or more hit points?
Not to put words in DxJxC's mouth, but there is a difference between being confused on how the rules should function and not being able to show your work.
This. I think that it is supposed to stack, but can't find a rule that supports that.
Maybe it used to stack? In older editions, monsters would sap your levels rather than just your maximum hit points. And my understanding is that older editions didn't have a rule against Combining Game Effects of the same name, that being introduced to simplify 5e.
And the specter's life drain is a threat to anyone with a max HP of 36 or lower because it can take away 36 current/max HP on a critical hit (this is a CR 1 monster). And the effect doesn't say it ends when the creature dies, either, so if that dead wizard is targeted with revivify, that wizard still has a max HP of ZERO until something like greater restoration removes the penalty (taking a long rest requires at least 1 hit point).
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap.
On the life drain attack of the Specter. it states:
The target must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the creature finishes a long rest.
The key thing here being that this reduction in maximum hit points doesn't say that it's an effect active on the target. It has a much simpler resolution - it reduces the maximum hit points of the target.
Don't confuse the rules for this monster on how the maximum hit points may be regained as a duration. That's not what it is.
Attacks that reduce maximum hit points are nasty. 😊
This topic was clarified in an official Sage Advice:
You don't need a rule that supports it. The action already tells you what it does, and we can confirm its purpose by its context. All you have to do is resist the temptation to categorize Life Drain in such a way as to create a conflict. This devil doesn't require an advocate.
But they kind of do need a rule to support it, especially when there is a rule that prevents it.
It is clear that stat drain is intended to stack. I can even infer that it is intended to work like damage. But damage is a mechanic of current HP, but stat reduction is a mechanic of specific game effects. And the rules say multiple game effects with the same name don't stack.
I didn't write the rules. I am generally more careful with my wording than 5e d&d is...
The key thing here being that this reduction in maximum hit points doesn't say that it's an effect active on the target. It has a much simpler resolution - it reduces the maximum hit points of the target.
Don't confuse the rules for this monster on how the maximum hit points may be regained as a duration. That's not what it is.
Since when do effects have to declare themselves as active?
"This [effect] lasts until [action that ends the effect]." Definitely not how every other active effect is written...
The explanation is my own reasoning, but either way, it has already been clarified in official Sage Advice.
Yeah, and I agree it should work that way.
I just wish the SAC didn't contradict the RAW sometimes. The SAC should only guide interpretation of the RAW (which is usually the case), not contradict it.
Maybe a minor errata is needed. Maybe in 5.5, stat drain can just have its own short paragraph in the general rules so it isn't indistinguishable from an ongoing game effect.
While two instances of the same game feature overlap, they don't stack, as described here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#CombiningGameEffects
There are explicit exceptions, such as the nycaloth's claw attack, but the specter has no such stipulation. Does that mean that if a creature is attacked by a specter several times, only the highest damage roll acts as a penalty to the creature's maximum hit points?
I see what you are saying. It is definitely intended that the specter's life drain stacks, but isn't easy to justify with the RAW.
The problem is stat damage from previous editions is made into individual special effects instead of a general rule.
Penalties to maximum hit points stack.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Right, but where does it say that in the rules is the question.
I think there’s a misunderstanding about what a game effect is. Max HP reduction is functionally damage, which is not a “game effect” for purposes of “combining game effects.”
Here’s a question for you: the rules say that effects of the same name don’t stack while their durations overlap. What’s the name of the effect in question? Is it Life Drain? Because Life Drain also reduces current HP until the target takes a long rest (or until it’s restored another way). Does that not stack with itself?
If a spell existed that said “for one hour, the target’s maximum HP is reduced by 10,” multiple castings of that spell wouldn’t stack, just like multiple Aids don’t stack. But the specter’s life drain is fundamentally different. It’s not a named effect with a duration; it’s an attack whose duration is instantaneous with an additional, unnamed effect that lasts until a long rest.
Bottom line is that effect stacking is only relevant for non-instantaneous effects; Life Drain is instantaneous, so the durations never overlap. The long rest is the condition under which the damage is healed, like any other damage, not a duration.
Yes, the name of the effect would be life drain. The damage is instantaneous and stacks yes, but the non-damage effect with the duration "until the creature finishes a long rest" is not instantaneous.
So do continuous effects only not stack when they are spells, or if they have a duration not dependant on rest? Or maybe you are saying that damaging effects that have lasting effects can stack, like fire elemental's fire form.
Like I said, stat damage in 5e isn't treated differently than a specific continuous effect. Nothing about the way life drain is worded treats the max HP reduction like damage or an instantaneous effect and even gives it a specific non-instantaneous duration.
You could just as easily say that any damage you take is a lingering effect with a duration of "until something restores your hit points." It's just that life drain is more specific in the means to undo it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No you can't, because damage has rules for what damage is: "Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points." An effect can cause damage, but damage is not an effect.
There are no such rules for stat reduction. The mechanics for stat reduction are contained fully within the effect that causes it, and that effect can't stack unless it specifically says it can (at least according to RAW, as we all know that is not RAI).
I would very much like someone to find the rule that says otherwise, because I don't know it.
Just to be clear, is your position that life drain doesn't stack, and the last sentence is just irrelevant for anyone with 19 or more hit points?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not to put words in DxJxC's mouth, but there is a difference between being confused on how the rules should function and not being able to show your work.
This. I think that it is supposed to stack, but can't find a rule that supports that.
You don't need a rule that supports it. The action already tells you what it does, and we can confirm its purpose by its context. All you have to do is resist the temptation to categorize Life Drain in such a way as to create a conflict. This devil doesn't require an advocate.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You can derive a general sense of what a Life Drain ability does if you look up other creatures with that or similarly-named Drain abilities. Some of the creatures are more explicit in their descriptions as to what they (want) do: Drain a creature multiple times to reduce the applicable stat until it reaches 0. So the stacked effect is implied. But yeah, it could be more specifically stated in the description of the ability/attack.
(Maybe somewhere in one of the books, like the DMG, the * Drain abilities are better defined...)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Maybe it used to stack? In older editions, monsters would sap your levels rather than just your maximum hit points. And my understanding is that older editions didn't have a rule against Combining Game Effects of the same name, that being introduced to simplify 5e.
And the specter's life drain is a threat to anyone with a max HP of 36 or lower because it can take away 36 current/max HP on a critical hit (this is a CR 1 monster). And the effect doesn't say it ends when the creature dies, either, so if that dead wizard is targeted with revivify, that wizard still has a max HP of ZERO until something like greater restoration removes the penalty (taking a long rest requires at least 1 hit point).
Attacks that reduce maximum hit points are not limited to just one "instance" occurring.
If they were, it would state this somewhere, rather than rely on the general rule for overlapping game features.
The rules that are being discussed above are relevant to ongoing/continuous effects.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#CombiningGameEffects
On the life drain attack of the Specter. it states:
The key thing here being that this reduction in maximum hit points doesn't say that it's an effect active on the target. It has a much simpler resolution - it reduces the maximum hit points of the target.
Don't confuse the rules for this monster on how the maximum hit points may be regained as a duration. That's not what it is.
Attacks that reduce maximum hit points are nasty. 😊
This topic was clarified in an official Sage Advice:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA282
It's talking about the strength drain of a shadow, but it's the exact same principle.
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But they kind of do need a rule to support it, especially when there is a rule that prevents it.
It is clear that stat drain is intended to stack. I can even infer that it is intended to work like damage. But damage is a mechanic of current HP, but stat reduction is a mechanic of specific game effects. And the rules say multiple game effects with the same name don't stack.
I didn't write the rules. I am generally more careful with my wording than 5e d&d is...
Since when do effects have to declare themselves as active?
"This [effect] lasts until [action that ends the effect]." Definitely not how every other active effect is written...
The explanation is my own reasoning, but either way, it has already been clarified in official Sage Advice.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Yeah, and I agree it should work that way.
I just wish the SAC didn't contradict the RAW sometimes. The SAC should only guide interpretation of the RAW (which is usually the case), not contradict it.
Maybe a minor errata is needed. Maybe in 5.5, stat drain can just have its own short paragraph in the general rules so it isn't indistinguishable from an ongoing game effect.
" The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0."
The implications of this rule are pretty clear.
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