I was having a conversation with a fellow DM and we came into a disagreement regarding how the expanded spell list for wizards affects the Eldritch Knight. His stance was that since TCoE expanded the spells a wizard could learn, an Eldritch Knight must therefore also be able to cast those spells. However, I noted that the expanded spell list for wizards was an optional "class feature." Wizards weren't getting new spells from an update to the base rules of spellcasting, but rather from a new class feature available to wizards. My reasoning was that since Eldritch Knights do not get access to this wizard class feature, they do not benefit from the expanded spell list RAW. My friend then pointed out that he could select spirit shroud in the D&D Beyond character creator as an Eldritch Knight, a spell that is on the expanded spell list for wizards. However, I think that's just because spirit shroud was also added by TCoE, which is automatically classified as spell learnable by wizards.
Is this line of reasoning correct? Can Eldritch Knights gain access to say augury since it is added to the wizard's spell list in TCoE, or does the "class feature" attribute of the additional spells deny the Eldritch Knight knowledge of those other spells?
The RAW answer is that the expanded spell list is an optional specific class feature of the wizard class, so if you’re not a wizard, it doesn’t affect you.
Your reasoning re: spirit shroud is correct. It was classified generally as a wizard spell in the book that added it, so it’s a wizard spell no matter what.
You are incorrect. The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
"You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list."
The new books add new spells to the Wizard spell list. You can learn any abjuration or evocation spell that a wizard can learn, and any one wizard spell at 3rd, 8th, 14th, and 20th level. Total of 13 spells in all, at 20th level.
Note, this only applies to books approved by the DM. If your DM says no Wildemonte books, then you cannot learn any of the Chrono or Gravity spells.
The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
You are overthinking things. There is no class feature "Additional Wizard Spells".
Tasha's book was designed to be entirely optional. The section titled "Additional Wizard Spells" simply means that if your DM wants to add these spells, then they become additional wizard spells and lists them all. Please note that a lot of the spells were not written in TCE. Booming Blade for example came from SCAG, which did not use a feature, it just says Booming Blade is a Wizard cantrip.
If these spells are additional wizard spells, then that makes them wizard spells and Eldritch Knight can cast them. If they are not additional Wizard spells (i.e. your DM has ruled against it), then they are not additional wizard spells. Which means neither Wizards nor Eldritch Knights can cast them.
The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
You are overthinking things. There is no class feature "Additional Wizard Spells".
The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
You are overthinking things. There is no class feature "Additional Wizard Spells".
The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
You are overthinking things. There is no class feature "Additional Wizard Spells".
"The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook."
IF the wizards list is expand, so is the Eldritch Knight's.
I agree completely. If the Eldritch Knight takes a level of wizard, then they have access to the all those spells. But you (and Mog) are somehow ignoring the fact that "Additional Wizard Spells" is explicitly listed as a 1st-level wizard feature. You cannot benefit from a 1st-level wizard feature if you are not at least a 1st-level wizard.
The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list
Either you use the optional rule and expand the wizard spell list, or you don't.
It's an "optional rule." It is an optional class feature that 1st-level wizards can choose with their DMs' permission. That's what "1st-level wizard feature" means.
The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook. The list is organized by spell level, not character level. A spell’s school of magic is noted, and if a spell can be cast as a ritual, the ritual tag appears after the spell’s name. Each spell is in the Player’s Handbook, unless it has an asterisk (a spell in chapter 3 of Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything). Xanathar’s Guide to Everything also offers more spells.
The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook. The list is organized by spell level, not character level. A spell’s school of magic is noted, and if a spell can be cast as a ritual, the ritual tag appears after the spell’s name. Each spell is in the Player’s Handbook, unless it has an asterisk (a spell in chapter 3 of Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything). Xanathar’s Guide to Everything also offers more spells.
Saga is correct and so are you. It is a wizard class feature. And the feature tells you that it adds spells to the wizard spell list. It just so happens that the scope of this optional wizard class feature extends beyond the wizard class. So either you use the optional class feature or you don't. If TCoE created a brand-new subcategory of the wizard spell list called "wizard-only wizard spells", we should expect it to tell us clearly that it was doing that.
The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook. The list is organized by spell level, not character level. A spell’s school of magic is noted, and if a spell can be cast as a ritual, the ritual tag appears after the spell’s name. Each spell is in the Player’s Handbook, unless it has an asterisk (a spell in chapter 3 of Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything). Xanathar’s Guide to Everything also offers more spells.
Saga is correct and so are you. It is a wizard class feature. And the feature tells you that it adds spells to the wizard spell list. It just so happens that the scope of this optional wizard class feature extends beyond the wizard class. So either you use the optional class feature or you don't. If TCoE created a brand-new subcategory of the wizard spell list called "wizard-only wizard spells", we should expect it to tell us clearly that it was doing that.
Tasha's explicitly says "Consulting with your DM, you decide whether to gain a feature in this section ifyou meet the level requirement noted in the feature’s description." Unless this somehow became the homebrew and house rules forum when I wasn't looking, we're discussing the rules as they are written in the book. You cannot gain the Additional Wizard Spells feature if you are not a 1st-level wizard. Even if we take your proposition that the feature universally adds spells to the wizard spell list irrespective of who's considering the list, someone has to be a 1st-level wizard for it to take effect. If you really want to die on the hill of "the eldritch knight benefits from the spell list expansion as long as one of the other party members is a wizard and chooses to take this optional feature," be my guest, but the rules are written to be understood (even if they don't always succeed), not to be legalistically exploited to create absurd scenarios.
Again, you are correct. All of this is criteria that is written for the wizard class. But an optional feature only has two states: ON or OFF. If the DM turns the feature on, then the wizard spell list is expanded.
the rules are written to be understood (even if they don't always succeed), not to be legalistically exploited to create absurd scenarios.
I respect the fact that you used the example of a spell list applying to everyone who draws from it as an absurd scenario, as opposed to interpreting one line of text in such a way as to suggest it creates an entirely new category of spells that is not used anywhere else in the rules :)
Again, you are correct. All of this is criteria that is written for the wizard class. But an optional feature only has two states: ON or OFF. If the DM turns the feature on, then the wizard spell list is expanded.
An optional feature's on/off state only applies to the character who chooses to take it or not. The DM decides whether or not the feature is available to be turned on. A specific player decides whether or not to turn it on for their character. That's what "you decide whether to gain a feature in this section" means. Whether or not one player's choice can affect the options available to another character is a silly diversion; if that's how you want to play, then sure, they left off the "for you" so have at it. But the premise you're arguing from is explicitly contradicted by the quoted language.
The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook. The list is organized by spell level, not character level. A spell’s school of magic is noted, and if a spell can be cast as a ritual, the ritual tag appears after the spell’s name. Each spell is in the Player’s Handbook, unless it has an asterisk (a spell in chapter 3 of Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything). Xanathar’s Guide to Everything also offers more spells.
Saga is correct and so are you. It is a wizard class feature. And the feature tells you that it adds spells to the wizard spell list. It just so happens that the scope of this optional wizard class feature extends beyond the wizard class. So either you use the optional class feature or you don't. If TCoE created a brand-new subcategory of the wizard spell list called "wizard-only wizard spells", we should expect it to tell us clearly that it was doing that.
However you are not correct according to RAW. There is no way that a Wizard class feature can apply to a Fighter subclass. The only way that feature can apply to an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster is if they take a level in Wizard.
PS- If this was intended to be an option for the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, it would also be listed under the optional rules for Fighter and Rogue respectively, or at least referenced there. It is not, therefore it cannot apply to Fighters and/or Rogues, only Wizards.
Note, this only applies to books approved by the DM. If your DM says no Wildemonte books, then you cannot learn any of the Chrono or Gravity spells.
For the record, RAW you wouldn't be able to learn these spells anyway as they are not a part of the Wizard spells list, they are a part of the subclasses spells. It falls into the same type of argument as the expanded spell list.
That being said, I'd rule to allow the stuff because I think keeping those spells locked up is interesting thematically but mechanically feels bad.
Some of the spells granted by this feature interestingly do not show up when searching wizard spells on dndbeyond. Can an eldritch knight on dndbeyond learn these spells?
Some of the spells granted by this feature interestingly do not show up when searching wizard spells on dndbeyond. Can an eldritch knight on dndbeyond learn these spells?
Just checked. The answer is no. I grabbed one of my paladins and slapped on 14 levels of eldritch knight. No augury allowed, since I don't have the additional wizard spells feature.
I was having a conversation with a fellow DM and we came into a disagreement regarding how the expanded spell list for wizards affects the Eldritch Knight. His stance was that since TCoE expanded the spells a wizard could learn, an Eldritch Knight must therefore also be able to cast those spells. However, I noted that the expanded spell list for wizards was an optional "class feature." Wizards weren't getting new spells from an update to the base rules of spellcasting, but rather from a new class feature available to wizards. My reasoning was that since Eldritch Knights do not get access to this wizard class feature, they do not benefit from the expanded spell list RAW. My friend then pointed out that he could select spirit shroud in the D&D Beyond character creator as an Eldritch Knight, a spell that is on the expanded spell list for wizards. However, I think that's just because spirit shroud was also added by TCoE, which is automatically classified as spell learnable by wizards.
Is this line of reasoning correct? Can Eldritch Knights gain access to say augury since it is added to the wizard's spell list in TCoE, or does the "class feature" attribute of the additional spells deny the Eldritch Knight knowledge of those other spells?
The RAW answer is that the expanded spell list is an optional specific class feature of the wizard class, so if you’re not a wizard, it doesn’t affect you.
Your reasoning re: spirit shroud is correct. It was classified generally as a wizard spell in the book that added it, so it’s a wizard spell no matter what.
You are incorrect. The rules for Eldritch Knight do not say "any wizard spell that exists at the time of this publishing."
"You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list."
The new books add new spells to the Wizard spell list. You can learn any abjuration or evocation spell that a wizard can learn, and any one wizard spell at 3rd, 8th, 14th, and 20th level. Total of 13 spells in all, at 20th level.
Note, this only applies to books approved by the DM. If your DM says no Wildemonte books, then you cannot learn any of the Chrono or Gravity spells.
That is irrelevant. The spirit shroud spell is already a wizard spell if it is included in the game, but augury is not. It can only be treated as a wizard spell if you have the Additional Wizard Spells class feature, which Eldritch Knights do not get.
You are overthinking things. There is no class feature "Additional Wizard Spells".
Tasha's book was designed to be entirely optional. The section titled "Additional Wizard Spells" simply means that if your DM wants to add these spells, then they become additional wizard spells and lists them all. Please note that a lot of the spells were not written in TCE. Booming Blade for example came from SCAG, which did not use a feature, it just says Booming Blade is a Wizard cantrip.
If these spells are additional wizard spells, then that makes them wizard spells and Eldritch Knight can cast them. If they are not additional Wizard spells (i.e. your DM has ruled against it), then they are not additional wizard spells. Which means neither Wizards nor Eldritch Knights can cast them.
There literally is.
"The spells in the following list expand the wizard spell list in the Player’s Handbook."
IF the wizard's list is expanded, so is the Eldritch Knight's.
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I agree completely. If the Eldritch Knight takes a level of wizard, then they have access to the all those spells. But you (and Mog) are somehow ignoring the fact that "Additional Wizard Spells" is explicitly listed as a 1st-level wizard feature. You cannot benefit from a 1st-level wizard feature if you are not at least a 1st-level wizard.
Either you use the optional rule and expand the wizard spell list, or you don't.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's an "optional rule." It is an optional class feature that 1st-level wizards can choose with their DMs' permission. That's what "1st-level wizard feature" means.
SagaTympana is absolutely correct.
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Saga is correct and so are you. It is a wizard class feature. And the feature tells you that it adds spells to the wizard spell list. It just so happens that the scope of this optional wizard class feature extends beyond the wizard class. So either you use the optional class feature or you don't. If TCoE created a brand-new subcategory of the wizard spell list called "wizard-only wizard spells", we should expect it to tell us clearly that it was doing that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Tasha's explicitly says "Consulting with your DM, you decide whether to gain a feature in this section if you meet the level requirement noted in the feature’s description." Unless this somehow became the homebrew and house rules forum when I wasn't looking, we're discussing the rules as they are written in the book. You cannot gain the Additional Wizard Spells feature if you are not a 1st-level wizard. Even if we take your proposition that the feature universally adds spells to the wizard spell list irrespective of who's considering the list, someone has to be a 1st-level wizard for it to take effect. If you really want to die on the hill of "the eldritch knight benefits from the spell list expansion as long as one of the other party members is a wizard and chooses to take this optional feature," be my guest, but the rules are written to be understood (even if they don't always succeed), not to be legalistically exploited to create absurd scenarios.
Again, you are correct. All of this is criteria that is written for the wizard class. But an optional feature only has two states: ON or OFF. If the DM turns the feature on, then the wizard spell list is expanded.
I respect the fact that you used the example of a spell list applying to everyone who draws from it as an absurd scenario, as opposed to interpreting one line of text in such a way as to suggest it creates an entirely new category of spells that is not used anywhere else in the rules :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
An optional feature's on/off state only applies to the character who chooses to take it or not. The DM decides whether or not the feature is available to be turned on. A specific player decides whether or not to turn it on for their character. That's what "you decide whether to gain a feature in this section" means. Whether or not one player's choice can affect the options available to another character is a silly diversion; if that's how you want to play, then sure, they left off the "for you" so have at it. But the premise you're arguing from is explicitly contradicted by the quoted language.
However you are not correct according to RAW. There is no way that a Wizard class feature can apply to a Fighter subclass. The only way that feature can apply to an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster is if they take a level in Wizard.
PS- If this was intended to be an option for the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, it would also be listed under the optional rules for Fighter and Rogue respectively, or at least referenced there. It is not, therefore it cannot apply to Fighters and/or Rogues, only Wizards.
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For the record, RAW you wouldn't be able to learn these spells anyway as they are not a part of the Wizard spells list, they are a part of the subclasses spells. It falls into the same type of argument as the expanded spell list.
That being said, I'd rule to allow the stuff because I think keeping those spells locked up is interesting thematically but mechanically feels bad.
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It is weird that they made expanded spell list a class feature.
But this argument seems like a lot of work for 4 spells (most of which aren't even very good).
Some of the spells granted by this feature interestingly do not show up when searching wizard spells on dndbeyond. Can an eldritch knight on dndbeyond learn these spells?
Just checked. The answer is no. I grabbed one of my paladins and slapped on 14 levels of eldritch knight. No augury allowed, since I don't have the additional wizard spells feature.