So I always thought this spell was kinda weak and a little useless. But a player brought up to me that they could use it as a reaction as a Warcaster, which they can. The debate is now about the reach of said reaction.
The spell has a Self/15ft Range. But is not a ranged spell attack, it is a Strength Save.
PHB says "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach." And Warcaster states, "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
So... Is the "Reach" of Lightning Lure 15ft? Would stepping outside of 15ft provoke an opportunity attack?
My initial answer was, "Not this time but I'll look it up." With the thought that Firebolt doesn't provoke an opportunity attack at 120ft.
But after looking it up and comparing spells... Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade both have Self as part of their range even though they are melee spell attacks. Whereas ranged spells typically just have a range (such as 120ft like Firebolt). I decided to compare it to Toll of the Dead as well, as that also has a saving throw, but this spell also only lists a range like a typical range spell.
I assume Self simply means the spell is cast on the user first. But then that begs the question, is this a "Reach" attack? With a Reach of 15ft. Does the caster see someone fleeing and cast it on themselves to prevent that target from fleeing?
So I always thought this spell was kinda weak and a little useless. But a player brought up to me that they could use it as a reaction as a Warcaster, which they can. The debate is now about the reach of said reaction.
The spell has a Self/15ft Range. But is not a ranged spell attack, it is a Strength Save.
PHB says "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach." And Warcaster states, "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
So... Is the "Reach" of Lightning Lure 15ft? Would stepping outside of 15ft provoke an opportunity attack?
My initial answer was, "Not this time but I'll look it up." With the thought that Firebolt doesn't provoke an opportunity attack at 120ft.
But after looking it up and comparing spells... Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade both have Self as part of their range even though they are melee spell attacks. Whereas ranged spells typically just have a range (such as 120ft like Firebolt). I decided to compare it to Toll of the Dead as well, as that also has a saving throw, but this spell also only lists a range like a typical range spell.
I assume Self simply means the spell is cast on the user first. But then that begs the question, is this a "Reach" attack? With a Reach of 15ft. Does the caster see someone fleeing and cast it on themselves to prevent that target from fleeing?
Help appreciated. Thanks in advance.
So the problem is what you are quoting from the PHB is how to make an opportunity attack and the question you're asking about is about the warcaster feat. One of the bullet points from this feat is: When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
Essentially warcaster only triggers if a hostile creature leaves your reach, and the rules for that would be melee reach (not spell reach) and that's due to the fact that the first part of warcaster has to be triggered first. So you can use lightning lure as a reaction with the warcaster feat and if it fails its saving throw it would just stay where it is essentially.
So actually I want to post something in retrospect... taking warcaster would let you cast lightning lure as a reaction, but ultimately it wouldn't solve anything.
So if they are within your reach (which is probably around five feet) using warcaster and lightning lure isnt going to reduce their movement to zero.... it would just pull them to you and they'd still have the rest of their movement... You'd have to have a spell that reduces movement speed to zero to get that reaction.
Wasn't thinking fully the first time I posted, was really focused on the fact that they could use warcaster to cast lightning lure... without thinking far beyond that.
So actually I want to post something in retrospect... taking warcaster would let you cast lightning lure as a reaction, but ultimately it wouldn't solve anything.
So if they are within your reach (which is probably around five feet) using warcaster and lightning lure isnt going to reduce their movement to zero.... it would just pull them to you and they'd still have the rest of their movement... You'd have to have a spell that reduces movement speed to zero to get that reaction.
Wasn't thinking fully the first time I posted, was really focused on the fact that they could use warcaster to cast lightning lure... without thinking far beyond that.
Correct. I like using booming blade with warcaster. It doesn't set their speed to 0, but does discourage them from moving.
So actually I want to post something in retrospect... taking warcaster would let you cast lightning lure as a reaction, but ultimately it wouldn't solve anything.
So if they are within your reach (which is probably around five feet) using warcaster and lightning lure isnt going to reduce their movement to zero.... it would just pull them to you and they'd still have the rest of their movement... You'd have to have a spell that reduces movement speed to zero to get that reaction.
Wasn't thinking fully the first time I posted, was really focused on the fact that they could use warcaster to cast lightning lure... without thinking far beyond that.
Correct. I like using booming blade with warcaster. It doesn't set their speed to 0, but does discourage them from moving.
It's a soft denial, to borrow terms appearing in another contemporary thread.
But, it would be guaranteed damage! Because if you cast Lightning Lure on them as they leave your reach, they are within 5 ft. of you and it wouldn't make a difference if they succeed or failed the save.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
But, it would be guaranteed damage! Because if you cast Lightning Lure on them as they leave your reach, they are within 5 ft. of you and it wouldn't make a difference if they succeed or failed the save.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
Lightning Lure is a cantrip with a DC save. All cantrips that require a DC save results in no damage if the hostile creature beats or meets the DC.
But, it would be guaranteed damage! Because if you cast Lightning Lure on them as they leave your reach, they are within 5 ft. of you and it wouldn't make a difference if they succeed or failed the save.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
Lightning Lure is a cantrip with a DC save. All cantrips that require a DC save results in no damage if the hostile creature beats or meets the DC.
To me, the condition on the damage is if they are within 5 ft. of you. The Str save is to see if they get pulled. If both were based on the strength save, then I don't know why there would be the condition of 5 ft. because they get pulled up to 10 ft. toward you and they can only be 15 ft. away.
I re-read the spell and you are correct. The problem though is STR saves tend to almost be one of the higher saves for monsters and so if something is already within the reach of 5 feet, which is necessary to get the damage off the spell, than their are better cantrips/spells to turn to you.
But, it would be guaranteed damage! Because if you cast Lightning Lure on them as they leave your reach, they are within 5 ft. of you and it wouldn't make a difference if they succeed or failed the save.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
Lightning Lure is a cantrip with a DC save. All cantrips that require a DC save results in no damage if the hostile creature beats or meets the DC.
To me, the condition on the damage is if they are within 5 ft. of you. The Str save is to see if they get pulled. If both were based on the strength save, then I don't know why there would be the condition of 5 ft. because they get pulled up to 10 ft. toward you and they can only be 15 ft. away.
Doesnt that interpretation make other melee cantrips like Shocking Grasp kinda moot? If I am a caster standing within 5 feet of an enemy, would I rather cast shocking grasp, make an attack roll (and risk missing / wasting my action), and deal 1d8 lightning damage + no reactions OR just cast lightning lure and deal the same damage without any risk of failure? Granted, in the latter case there is no rider effect. What I want to highlight, though, is a cantrip that just deals damage without any rolling goes against the design of 5e.
There are hardly any spells in 5e that just deal damage without rolling/saves involved to alter it. The only one I can think of is Magic Missile which deals a total of 3d4 + 3 damage, but (unlike a cantrip) still costs you a 1st level spell slot (i.e, you cannot use it every single turn in combat for free damage).
I might feel differently if the cantrip was more explicit about dealing the damage regardless of the save, like if it read more along the lines of: " The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you. The target takes 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you when you finish casting the spell." At the very least, as the language is unclear I am inclined to believe that the intention of the spell is for the damage to occur only on a failed save, as that is more in line with how the majority of other save/fail mechanics work in 5e.
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But, it would be guaranteed damage! Because if you cast Lightning Lure on them as they leave your reach, they are within 5 ft. of you and it wouldn't make a difference if they succeed or failed the save.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
Lightning Lure is a cantrip with a DC save. All cantrips that require a DC save results in no damage if the hostile creature beats or meets the DC.
To me, the condition on the damage is if they are within 5 ft. of you. The Str save is to see if they get pulled. If both were based on the strength save, then I don't know why there would be the condition of 5 ft. because they get pulled up to 10 ft. toward you and they can only be 15 ft. away.
Doesnt that interpretation make other melee cantrips like Shocking Grasp kinda moot? If I am a caster standing within 5 feet of an enemy, would I rather cast shocking grasp, make an attack roll (and risk missing / wasting my action), and deal 1d8 lightning damage + no reactions OR just cast lightning lure and deal the same damage without any risk of failure? Granted, in the latter case there is no rider effect. What I want to highlight, though, is a cantrip that just deals damage without any rolling goes against the design of 5e.
There are hardly any spells in 5e that just deal damage without rolling/saves involved to alter it. The only one I can think of is Magic Missile which deals a total of 3d4 + 3 damage, but (unlike a cantrip) still costs you a 1st level spell slot (i.e, you cannot use it every single turn in combat for free damage).
I might feel differently if the cantrip was more explicit about dealing the damage regardless of the save, like if it read more along the lines of: " The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you. The target takes 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you when you finish casting the spell." At the very least, as the language is unclear I am inclined to believe that the intention of the spell is for the damage to occur only on a failed save, as that is more in line with how the majority of other save/fail mechanics work in 5e.
It does basically say what you wrote just without the period. I agree that the RAI is ambiguous, but it could just as easily be read RAW either way.
If you compare it to something similar like Thorn Whip, then you have one attack roll for both effects (damage and pull), but Lightning Lure has a secondary condition that WILL be met if the target fails the Str save (outside of a sorcerer using Distant Spell, but who would do that on a cantrip?). If there was no way to deal damage if they pass the Str save, why would they included the secondary condition?
Lets compare the language of Thorn Whip and Lightning Lure
Thorn Whip
If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you.
Lightning Lure
The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward youand then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you.
Both of these follow the same structure, just in a different order.
With Thorn Whip: i) attack hits ii) creature takes damage iii) creature is pulled. ii & iii are connected by the AND in the description. Both are dependent on the attack hitting in the first place and neither occurs if the attack misses
With Lightning Lure: i) creature fails its save ii) creature is pulled iii) creature takes damage. Like with Thorn Whip, ii & iii are connected by an AND in the description, so it is fair to say that they are both dependent on the creature first failing its saving throw in the same way that Thorn Whip's effects are both dependent on the creature first being hit by an attack.
In both, taking damage and being pulled are tied together and are dependent on a d20 roll going a certain way. The only major difference in the language is that Lightning Lure has the "then" which sets up the order these occur in. Following a failed save, the target is pulled, then the target takes damage. For Thorn Whip, without the "then" this seems to imply that the damaging and pulling occur simultaneously. In either case, though, both effects happen as part of the same effect over the same action.
We could argue the semantics of it all day, but I again want to stress that there is no precedent in 5e for a cantrip (i.e a cost-free spell) that deals damage without requiring a successful attack or failed save first. If anything, the idea that there is an ability that requires a saving throw but also can affect the target regardless of the outcome of that saving throw is also very unorthodox. If an ability requires a saving throw, then the major detrimental effects of that ability (including damage) will be tied to its outcome.
If the RAW can be read either way, then considering such precedence is important. Given how other cantrips work, I think the RAI isnt ambiguous at all. If Lightning Lure dealt damage regardless of the outcome of a d20 roll, it would make it the only damaging cantrip in all of 5e to work that way, so I doubt that that is the correct interpretation
So I always thought this spell was kinda weak and a little useless. But a player brought up to me that they could use it as a reaction as a Warcaster, which they can. The debate is now about the reach of said reaction.
The spell has a Self/15ft Range. But is not a ranged spell attack, it is a Strength Save.
PHB says "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach." And Warcaster states, "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
So... Is the "Reach" of Lightning Lure 15ft? Would stepping outside of 15ft provoke an opportunity attack?
My initial answer was, "Not this time but I'll look it up." With the thought that Firebolt doesn't provoke an opportunity attack at 120ft.
But after looking it up and comparing spells... Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade both have Self as part of their range even though they are melee spell attacks. Whereas ranged spells typically just have a range (such as 120ft like Firebolt). I decided to compare it to Toll of the Dead as well, as that also has a saving throw, but this spell also only lists a range like a typical range spell.
I assume Self simply means the spell is cast on the user first. But then that begs the question, is this a "Reach" attack? With a Reach of 15ft. Does the caster see someone fleeing and cast it on themselves to prevent that target from fleeing?
Help appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Lightning Lure can't be used with War Caster for the same reason Booming Blade can't: the spell does not target only the creature that provoked the OA (in particular, it targets the caster as well), and hence fails the criterion.
The definition of a spell's range is the range to the spell's "target". Spells may and often do have multiple targets, so you can think of this as the "initial" target. Another example of a rule (like range) that only cares about the initial target is the rule that has total cover automatically block spell targeting, which is why misty step can go through glass (it also targets a point in space, but not during initial targeting, so the targeted point in space can be behind total cover).
If they wanted the damage to occur no matter the save it would say something like “the take 1d8 damage if within 5’ of you and on a failed save gets pulled up to 10’ towards you”.
Kaboom is correct, if they save, nothing happens.
I do believe that even with a range of self (15’) Lightning Lure and Booming Blade still works. When they changed BB/GFB to range of Self (5’) they did it to keep it from being used with reach weapons and Warcaster but not Warcaster itself. I could be wrong.
Edit: quindraco, even in the rule you linked it doesn’t say that range of self is the target, for things like cones, the range of self just indicates the origin of the spell, not the target.
Edit: quindraco, even in the rule you linked it doesn’t say that range of self is the target, for things like cones, the range of self just indicates the origin of the spell, not the target.
It either has a range of self or is an AOE with a point of origin of self and a X ft shape. Those are the only 2 range description notations explained by the RAW.
I'd be fine with the errata if it either followed the existing rules or came with new ones, but it does neither. It just exists, as a self spell that targets a second creature, or an AOE with no defined shape depending on your interpretation.
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Hello,
So I always thought this spell was kinda weak and a little useless. But a player brought up to me that they could use it as a reaction as a Warcaster, which they can. The debate is now about the reach of said reaction.
The spell has a Self/15ft Range. But is not a ranged spell attack, it is a Strength Save.
PHB says "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach."
And Warcaster states, "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
So... Is the "Reach" of Lightning Lure 15ft? Would stepping outside of 15ft provoke an opportunity attack?
My initial answer was, "Not this time but I'll look it up." With the thought that Firebolt doesn't provoke an opportunity attack at 120ft.
But after looking it up and comparing spells... Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade both have Self as part of their range even though they are melee spell attacks. Whereas ranged spells typically just have a range (such as 120ft like Firebolt). I decided to compare it to Toll of the Dead as well, as that also has a saving throw, but this spell also only lists a range like a typical range spell.
I assume Self simply means the spell is cast on the user first. But then that begs the question, is this a "Reach" attack? With a Reach of 15ft.
Does the caster see someone fleeing and cast it on themselves to prevent that target from fleeing?
Help appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
So the problem is what you are quoting from the PHB is how to make an opportunity attack and the question you're asking about is about the warcaster feat.
One of the bullet points from this feat is: When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
Essentially warcaster only triggers if a hostile creature leaves your reach, and the rules for that would be melee reach (not spell reach) and that's due to the fact that the first part of warcaster has to be triggered first. So you can use lightning lure as a reaction with the warcaster feat and if it fails its saving throw it would just stay where it is essentially.
Justen is correct. Your reach before you cast was 5ft, so you trigger when they leave that 5 ft.
I was about to hijcack this thread, but will instead post a new one.
So actually I want to post something in retrospect... taking warcaster would let you cast lightning lure as a reaction, but ultimately it wouldn't solve anything.
So if they are within your reach (which is probably around five feet) using warcaster and lightning lure isnt going to reduce their movement to zero.... it would just pull them to you and they'd still have the rest of their movement... You'd have to have a spell that reduces movement speed to zero to get that reaction.
Wasn't thinking fully the first time I posted, was really focused on the fact that they could use warcaster to cast lightning lure... without thinking far beyond that.
Correct. I like using booming blade with warcaster. It doesn't set their speed to 0, but does discourage them from moving.
It's a soft denial, to borrow terms appearing in another contemporary thread.
Is the damage dealt regardless of success or failure? The spell reads as "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you"
To me, this reads as everything after the "or" only occurs if they failed.
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Lightning Lure is a cantrip with a DC save. All cantrips that require a DC save results in no damage if the hostile creature beats or meets the DC.
I re-read the spell and you are correct. The problem though is STR saves tend to almost be one of the higher saves for monsters and so if something is already within the reach of 5 feet, which is necessary to get the damage off the spell, than their are better cantrips/spells to turn to you.
Doesnt that interpretation make other melee cantrips like Shocking Grasp kinda moot? If I am a caster standing within 5 feet of an enemy, would I rather cast shocking grasp, make an attack roll (and risk missing / wasting my action), and deal 1d8 lightning damage + no reactions OR just cast lightning lure and deal the same damage without any risk of failure? Granted, in the latter case there is no rider effect. What I want to highlight, though, is a cantrip that just deals damage without any rolling goes against the design of 5e.
There are hardly any spells in 5e that just deal damage without rolling/saves involved to alter it. The only one I can think of is Magic Missile which deals a total of 3d4 + 3 damage, but (unlike a cantrip) still costs you a 1st level spell slot (i.e, you cannot use it every single turn in combat for free damage).
I might feel differently if the cantrip was more explicit about dealing the damage regardless of the save, like if it read more along the lines of: " The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you. The target takes 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you when you finish casting the spell." At the very least, as the language is unclear I am inclined to believe that the intention of the spell is for the damage to occur only on a failed save, as that is more in line with how the majority of other save/fail mechanics work in 5e.
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Lets compare the language of Thorn Whip and Lightning Lure
Thorn Whip
If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you.
Lightning Lure
The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you.
Both of these follow the same structure, just in a different order.
We could argue the semantics of it all day, but I again want to stress that there is no precedent in 5e for a cantrip (i.e a cost-free spell) that deals damage without requiring a successful attack or failed save first. If anything, the idea that there is an ability that requires a saving throw but also can affect the target regardless of the outcome of that saving throw is also very unorthodox. If an ability requires a saving throw, then the major detrimental effects of that ability (including damage) will be tied to its outcome.
If the RAW can be read either way, then considering such precedence is important. Given how other cantrips work, I think the RAI isnt ambiguous at all. If Lightning Lure dealt damage regardless of the outcome of a d20 roll, it would make it the only damaging cantrip in all of 5e to work that way, so I doubt that that is the correct interpretation
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Lightning Lure can't be used with War Caster for the same reason Booming Blade can't: the spell does not target only the creature that provoked the OA (in particular, it targets the caster as well), and hence fails the criterion.
The definition of a spell's range is the range to the spell's "target". Spells may and often do have multiple targets, so you can think of this as the "initial" target. Another example of a rule (like range) that only cares about the initial target is the rule that has total cover automatically block spell targeting, which is why misty step can go through glass (it also targets a point in space, but not during initial targeting, so the targeted point in space can be behind total cover).
If they wanted the damage to occur no matter the save it would say something like “the take 1d8 damage if within 5’ of you and on a failed save gets pulled up to 10’ towards you”.
Kaboom is correct, if they save, nothing happens.
I do believe that even with a range of self (15’) Lightning Lure and Booming Blade still works. When they changed BB/GFB to range of Self (5’) they did it to keep it from being used with reach weapons and Warcaster but not Warcaster itself. I could be wrong.
Edit: quindraco, even in the rule you linked it doesn’t say that range of self is the target, for things like cones, the range of self just indicates the origin of the spell, not the target.
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It either has a range of self or is an AOE with a point of origin of self and a X ft shape. Those are the only 2 range description notations explained by the RAW.
I'd be fine with the errata if it either followed the existing rules or came with new ones, but it does neither. It just exists, as a self spell that targets a second creature, or an AOE with no defined shape depending on your interpretation.