If you cast feeblemind on a creature that has spell like abilities, like teleporting or an attack that acts like a spell but without the components, are they able to still do them?
Technically, it has no effect on such abilities. It doesn't even prevent Paladins from using divine smite, expending spell slots to hit harder. If it's not a spell or something that requires speech, then Feeble-mind won't affect it.
I don't like the spell at all. It's not fun to have it used against you, and against an NPC, it either does nothing or anticlimactically ends the scenario. It lasts for way too long without any chance of additional saves, and it doesn't specify how having a Headband of Intellect affects your abilities (presumably the spell prevents you from being able to talk due to having 1 Intelligence, but the Headband hard-sets your Intelligence to 19, so you should still be able to speak, but the rules don't say this anywhere)
But say for a Paladin, their abilities run off charisma. If that is reduced to 1, they wouldn’t be able to smite would they? I feel like the spell like abilities require that thought and concentration to pull off and would be affected. Especially since it states they act as a spell, but without any components. But that could just be the way I think. I definitely think they need to reword it for more clarification.
But say for a Paladin, their abilities run off charisma. If that is reduced to 1, they wouldn’t be able to smite would they?
Yes, a Paladin with Charisma 1 can Smite. There is absolutely no relation between Paladin Smite and Charisma.
I feel like the spell like abilities require that thought and concentration to pull off
Some require concentration, but feeblemind does not interfere with concentration. It does interfere with communication, both spoken and heard, which means some spell-likes that rely on that will be shut down by feeblemind. Do you have a specific spell-like in mind?
and would be affected. Especially since it states they act as a spell, but without any components.
An actual, bona fide spell cast without components is still casting a spell and hence absolutely is disabled by Feeblemind.
But that could just be the way I think. I definitely think they need to reword it for more clarification.
In this case, there's nothing to clarify - the rule is crystal clear. Disliking the rule doesn't make it ambiguous, no matter how dumb the rule.
Here's an example, since you didn't ask about one:
If Demogorgon feebleminds himself, his lair action to make illusory duplicates of himself still works, but his lair action to cast darkness 4 times without concentration doesn't work, because he can't cast darkness while feebleminded.
A creature affected by feeblemind cannot cast spells, wether it's innate spellcasting ability or spells from magic items. If the game element doesn't say it cast a spell, then it can use it.
A lot of this comes into the realm of DM decisions on how to interpret what the stat changes mean and how they affect the character/creatures's behaviour and decision making - which are always contentious issues.
Intelligence and Charisma are set to 1. The creature's intellect and personality have been "shattered". The creature can't cast spells, activate magic items or communicate in any intelligible way. However, it can identify its friends, follow them and even try to protect them.
Could a paladin affected by feeblemind smite? Yes, it isn't a spell or magic item and doesn't require communication.
However, their intelligence is 1. They have no ability for significant cognitive processes.
"Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason."
At intelligence 1 - the creature has little or no mental acuity, little or no ability recall things and little or no ability to reason.
So COULD a paladin smite, RAW? Yes.
Does a paladin affected by feeblemind remember how to smite? Know when to use it and when not? Can make a conscious decision - "I should smite on this hit - the target is in bad shape", or "that attack was a particularly good (crit), I should smite". Could they make an instinctive decision? Are character abilities instinctive or learned?
In the end, it becomes a DM call as to whether the creature affected by feeblemind has the cognitive ability to decide to use any of their special abilities. Mechanically - the intelligence is 1, and RAW, "Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason." ... but the rules do NOT say, one way or another, what a creature with intelligence 1 is capable of.
Some examples of creatures with an int of 1 include Crab, Constrictor snake, Frog, Giant Centipede, Shark, Lizard ... unfortunately, comparison is the only benchmark for what an intelligence of 1 might mean.
A frog's memory is likely pretty short ... their ability to reason limited ... when attacked or hurt, many of these creatures might choose to flee of fight, but it isn't likely a reasoned decision.
Anyway, the bottom line on how feeblemind works with special abilities is a DM call, not because the spell prevents their use, but because an int of 1 and cha of 1 might be interpreted by the DM to mean that the affected character is incapable of deciding to use them (which is a completely valid ruling in game terms since the effects of int =1 and cha=1 are not defined).
I would rule that someone with an Int of 1 would make the worst possible use of any ability they could still use.
They will use their highest spell slot to smite a door rather than turn the handle. They will confidentially not smite at all when facing any creature that is not larger than they are.
Spell like abilities aren't a thing in 5e. There are abilities that are magical, yes, but that's a mechanic from earlier editions.
As has probably been beaten to death in Twitter by Crawford, there are no hidden rules in 5e. A creature affected by Feeblemind could use its race, class, and other features as long as they don't cast spells, communicate, or involve activating a magic item. A paladin can smite, a wild magic barbarian can use wild surge, a warlock can use their pact features (as long as they don't involve spellcasting). I would say that there is some common sense that could be applied contextually to some features, and obviously some abilities would be much worse with reduced abilities (like artificer's Flash of Genius, which becomes a debuff since you're now so stupid it rubs off on your target- though that's not necessarily a major nerf) but you could still use them.
Technically speaking there are no such thing as “spell like abilities” in this edition of D&D, specifically to preclude things like feeblemind or counterspell from interacting with any non-spellcasting abilities.
Sure. But there are abilities that are an awful lot like spells.
True, but they aren’t affected by things that affect spells.
No body said otherwise. The OP asked about it, and everybody said "no" 3 days ago. That should be the end of it, but the last 5 posts have just been talking about it like a one-sided argument that no one is denying.
You're right. To be clear, I was just being conversational -- I assumed the thread was over when I first posted. The question had been sufficiently answered by that point.
Sure. But there are abilities that are an awful lot like spells.
True, but they aren’t affected by things that affect spells.
No body said otherwise. The OP asked about it, and everybody said "no" 3 days ago. That should be the end of it, but the last 5 posts have just been talking about it like a one-sided argument that no one is denying.
So sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you by having a conversation. Mea culpa.
If you cast feeblemind on a creature that has spell like abilities, like teleporting or an attack that acts like a spell but without the components, are they able to still do them?
Technically, it has no effect on such abilities. It doesn't even prevent Paladins from using divine smite, expending spell slots to hit harder. If it's not a spell or something that requires speech, then Feeble-mind won't affect it.
I don't like the spell at all. It's not fun to have it used against you, and against an NPC, it either does nothing or anticlimactically ends the scenario. It lasts for way too long without any chance of additional saves, and it doesn't specify how having a Headband of Intellect affects your abilities (presumably the spell prevents you from being able to talk due to having 1 Intelligence, but the Headband hard-sets your Intelligence to 19, so you should still be able to speak, but the rules don't say this anywhere)
But say for a Paladin, their abilities run off charisma. If that is reduced to 1, they wouldn’t be able to smite would they? I feel like the spell like abilities require that thought and concentration to pull off and would be affected. Especially since it states they act as a spell, but without any components. But that could just be the way I think. I definitely think they need to reword it for more clarification.
It doesn't necessarily effect non-spell abilities. It will mostly be up to DM.
Yes, a Paladin with Charisma 1 can Smite. There is absolutely no relation between Paladin Smite and Charisma.
Some require concentration, but feeblemind does not interfere with concentration. It does interfere with communication, both spoken and heard, which means some spell-likes that rely on that will be shut down by feeblemind. Do you have a specific spell-like in mind?
An actual, bona fide spell cast without components is still casting a spell and hence absolutely is disabled by Feeblemind.
In this case, there's nothing to clarify - the rule is crystal clear. Disliking the rule doesn't make it ambiguous, no matter how dumb the rule.
Here's an example, since you didn't ask about one:
If Demogorgon feebleminds himself, his lair action to make illusory duplicates of himself still works, but his lair action to cast darkness 4 times without concentration doesn't work, because he can't cast darkness while feebleminded.
A creature affected by feeblemind cannot cast spells, wether it's innate spellcasting ability or spells from magic items. If the game element doesn't say it cast a spell, then it can use it.
A lot of this comes into the realm of DM decisions on how to interpret what the stat changes mean and how they affect the character/creatures's behaviour and decision making - which are always contentious issues.
Intelligence and Charisma are set to 1. The creature's intellect and personality have been "shattered". The creature can't cast spells, activate magic items or communicate in any intelligible way. However, it can identify its friends, follow them and even try to protect them.
Could a paladin affected by feeblemind smite? Yes, it isn't a spell or magic item and doesn't require communication.
However, their intelligence is 1. They have no ability for significant cognitive processes.
"Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason."
At intelligence 1 - the creature has little or no mental acuity, little or no ability recall things and little or no ability to reason.
So COULD a paladin smite, RAW? Yes.
Does a paladin affected by feeblemind remember how to smite? Know when to use it and when not? Can make a conscious decision - "I should smite on this hit - the target is in bad shape", or "that attack was a particularly good (crit), I should smite". Could they make an instinctive decision? Are character abilities instinctive or learned?
In the end, it becomes a DM call as to whether the creature affected by feeblemind has the cognitive ability to decide to use any of their special abilities. Mechanically - the intelligence is 1, and RAW, "Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason." ... but the rules do NOT say, one way or another, what a creature with intelligence 1 is capable of.
Some examples of creatures with an int of 1 include Crab, Constrictor snake, Frog, Giant Centipede, Shark, Lizard ... unfortunately, comparison is the only benchmark for what an intelligence of 1 might mean.
A frog's memory is likely pretty short ... their ability to reason limited ... when attacked or hurt, many of these creatures might choose to flee of fight, but it isn't likely a reasoned decision.
Anyway, the bottom line on how feeblemind works with special abilities is a DM call, not because the spell prevents their use, but because an int of 1 and cha of 1 might be interpreted by the DM to mean that the affected character is incapable of deciding to use them (which is a completely valid ruling in game terms since the effects of int =1 and cha=1 are not defined).
I would rule that someone with an Int of 1 would make the worst possible use of any ability they could still use.
They will use their highest spell slot to smite a door rather than turn the handle. They will confidentially not smite at all when facing any creature that is not larger than they are.
This'll be fun, now that MoM's casters have a bunch of SLAs instead of spells.
Its more like a bunch of SLAs in addition to spells. They still have spells just fewer and have limited uses each instead of shared slots.
Right. I just mean that the spell designed to strip wizards of their magic, won't actually do that anymore.
Spell like abilities aren't a thing in 5e. There are abilities that are magical, yes, but that's a mechanic from earlier editions.
As has probably been beaten to death in Twitter by Crawford, there are no hidden rules in 5e. A creature affected by Feeblemind could use its race, class, and other features as long as they don't cast spells, communicate, or involve activating a magic item. A paladin can smite, a wild magic barbarian can use wild surge, a warlock can use their pact features (as long as they don't involve spellcasting). I would say that there is some common sense that could be applied contextually to some features, and obviously some abilities would be much worse with reduced abilities (like artificer's Flash of Genius, which becomes a debuff since you're now so stupid it rubs off on your target- though that's not necessarily a major nerf) but you could still use them.
Technically speaking there are no such thing as “spell like abilities” in this edition of D&D, specifically to preclude things like feeblemind or counterspell from interacting with any non-spellcasting abilities.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Sure. But there are abilities that are an awful lot like spells.
True, but they aren’t affected by things that affect spells.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If an ability is not stated to be a spell, it's not considered a spell even if it duplicates a spell's effects.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Ok this spell like ability tangent has gone on long enough.
No body said otherwise. The OP asked about it, and everybody said "no" 3 days ago. That should be the end of it, but the last 5 posts have just been talking about it like a one-sided argument that no one is denying.
You're right. To be clear, I was just being conversational -- I assumed the thread was over when I first posted. The question had been sufficiently answered by that point.
So sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you by having a conversation. Mea culpa.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting