The conceptual design thing that's happening is, you "cast" the spell when you ready the action, specifically meaning you spend the spell slot, spend/perform the components, etc. when you ready. (And has been noted, the target specification is part of the effects, not the components, so can be delayed until the reaction.)
RAW you dont choose target when casting the spell, but when the spell's effect goes, this wether you Ready a spell, cast one with Longer Casting Time or when delayed by a slow spell.
That may well be the intention but I’m not sure that it is written. When the game contains cases where it is unclear, either we need direct statements or we are left to making rulings. I think allowing the target to be chosen when the spell is released is a fine ruling, I just have a hard time seeing it as “RAW” because the rules seem to have nothing written that addresses this.
They're not so different in fact, wether you ready an attack or a spell, you hold it until you release it as a reaction on target(s) of your choosing.
But that's the thing, you don't ready "an attack", you ready the "attack action". [...]
Not really, right? On your turn, you take the Ready action to prepare, for example, an attack when you see an enemy entering the room. You're not taking the Attack action. In fact, if you Ready an action, you cannot make extra attacks; you only get one single attack if that trigger occurs.
One more thing to remember is that you choose a target when making the roll for a melee, ranged, or spell attack, and this will take effect when you finally use the reaction:
RAW you dont choose target when casting the spell, but when the spell's effect goes, this wether you Ready a spell, cast one with Longer Casting Time or when delayed by a slow spell.
That may well be the intention but I’m not sure that it is written. When the game contains cases where it is unclear, either we need direct statements or we are left to making rulings. I think allowing the target to be chosen when the spell is released is a fine ruling, I just have a hard time seeing it as “RAW” because the rules seem to have nothing written that addresses this.
It's not written that you must choose target when Readying a spell neither so i'm not sure why you think it's RAW or a fine ruling when in fact you choose targets as part of a spell's effect according to the way spells are written.
RAW you dont choose target when casting the spell, but when the spell's effect goes, this wether you Ready a spell, cast one with Longer Casting Time or when delayed by a slow spell.
That may well be the intention but I’m not sure that it is written. When the game contains cases where it is unclear, either we need direct statements or we are left to making rulings. I think allowing the target to be chosen when the spell is released is a fine ruling, I just have a hard time seeing it as “RAW” because the rules seem to have nothing written that addresses this.
It's not written that you must choose target when Readying a spell neither so i'm not sure why you think it's RAW or a fine ruling when in fact you choose targets as part of a spell's effect according to the way spells are written.
That’s the part that makes it confusing. Nothing definitive is actually written either way. Yet you keep claiming your view is RAW. I’m just not sure why. What text are you basing your claim on?
I'm not saying it isn't the best way to rule. It probably is best to rule that you target when you release the spell or take the readied attack or whatever.
BUT it seems like just an implication, i.e. it isn't written out directly.
It's the way spells work as written, you choose target for a spell only when it take effect, not during casting, so you don't choose targets when you take the ready action but when you release it as a reaction and the effect occur.
You don't choose targets for spells with Longer Casting Time during the casting but when the effect occur.
You don't choose targets for spells during the casting when affected by slow but when the effect occur.
Do you really think when you ready web, that "You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. The webs fill a 20-foot cube from that point for the duration." or only when you release it as a reaction?
Do you really think when you ready magic missile that "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range." or only when you release it as a reaction?
Do you really think when you ready bless, that "You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range." or only when you release it as a reaction?
So evidently, when you ready a spell no spell effect occur until you release it as a reaction, and it's during the spell's effect that you choose target.
And multiple official rulings in SAC support that so if there's still any confusion it might be due to some misunderstanding on how spellcasting works in general.
Not really, right? On your turn, you take the Ready action to prepare, for example, an attack when you see an enemy entering the room. You're not taking the Attack action.
You take the Ready action but that requires you to pick what action you will take when your trigger happens. And that would be the Attack action if you intend to make an attack.
In fact, if you Ready an action, you cannot make extra attacks; you only get one single attack if that trigger occurs.
This is true but it is also irrelevant. The Attack action never gives you the ability to make more than one attack. It is other game features that gives you that possibility and those features will tell you if/when you can make those additional attacks. Extra attack is the most common one but there are others (Dread Ambusher for example) and in the description for Extra attack it says "whenever you take the Attack action on your turn" and thus it will not give you that additional attack if you have a readied Attack action that gets triggered on another creatures turn. This is also why you don't get more than one attack if you are allowed some other way to make an attack (like an opportunity attack with a reaction or TWF with a bonus action).
Not really, right? On your turn, you take the Ready action to prepare, for example, an attack when you see an enemy entering the room. You're not taking the Attack action.
You take the Ready action but that requires you to pick what action you will take when your trigger happens. And that would be the Attack action if you intend to make an attack.
In fact, if you Ready an action, you cannot make extra attacks; you only get one single attack if that trigger occurs.
This is true but it is also irrelevant. The Attack action never gives you the ability to make more than one attack. It is other game features that gives you that possibility and those features will tell you if/when you can make those additional attacks. Extra attack is the most common one but there are others (Dread Ambusher for example) and in the description for Extra attack it says "whenever you take the Attack action on your turn" and thus it will not give you that additional attack if you have a readied Attack action that gets triggered on another creatures turn. This is also why you don't get more than one attack if you are allowed some other way to make an attack (like an opportunity attack with a reaction or TWF with a bonus action).
Oh, man, your reasoning really opened my eyes! 😶 You're totally right.
Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. [...]
It's the way spells work as written, you choose target for a spell only when it take effect, not during casting, so you don't choose targets when you take the ready action but when you release it as a reaction and the effect occur.
Yeah? There's a whole section devoted to casting spells with longer casting time. All I'm saying is rather than implying it, they should have written it down. Then it would be RAW, rather than RAI.
And on the SAC note, often Sage Advice will tell you the reasoning why a ruling was made. Note the answers to each of the questions concerning this topic are only assertions with no reasoning. It's like they didn't have any rules to reason from.
Again, I'm not saying your wrong except for calling it RAW. This seems to be a textbook case of RAI: the rule isn't written anywhere, but there are implications all over the rest of the PHB.
I can see it both ways. It comes down to, for me, how you interpret the part that says you cast the spell as normal.
So if you are in a completely empty room and want to cast a spell like Magic Missile or Eldritch Blast as an action (not readied) can you do so?
If you use the rules in Xanathar's then the answer is yes.
"Invalid Spell Targets
A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.
If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target."
The rule from Xanathar's allows spells to be cast against invalid targets - they just don't do anything except expend the spell slot if the target is invalid. If you use this rule, it does allow characters to use recon by fire with any cantrip since when they aim it at a creature and hit the spell would do damage. However, this is probably better than having a character attempt to target everything in the room but then have the DM say "You can target the chest on the left" ... thus giving away that it is likely a mimic.
At least allowing invalid targets, forces the characters to actually cast the cantrip/spell in order to get any additional information.
P.S. I also find that allowing spells to be targeted at invalid targets makes more sense from a verisimilitude perspective ... the characters may not know what is a valid target or not so they should be able to cast the spell ... it just doesn't necessarily do anything. e.g. a character casting a charm effect on a "human" looking creature that is actually a vampire or undead. The charm effect does nothing but the player doesn't know whether the creature made its save or whether the target was invalid.
It's the way spells work as written, you choose target for a spell only when it take effect, not during casting, so you don't choose targets when you take the ready action but when you release it as a reaction and the effect occur.
You don't choose targets for spells with Longer Casting Time during the casting but when the effect occur.
You don't choose targets for spells during the casting when affected by slow but when the effect occur.
[...]
So evidently, when you ready a spell no spell effect occur until you release it as a reaction, and it's during the spell's effect that you choose target.
Just going to echo what some others have already pointed out:
To ready a spell says: "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal..." So you used your action to cast the spell.
Bonus action spellcasting rules say you can't cast a bonus action spell and a leveled action spell (or any spells as a reaction) on the same turn, so readying doesn't work to get around this.
Note that releasing the readied spell is not casting it (that was already done as an action), so it can't be countered at this time. Something to consider: Ready a spell behind cover and come out and blasting.
My mind has just linked this sentence from @DxJxC "Note that releasing the readied spell is not casting it (that was already done as an action), so it can't be countered at this time." with this interesting tweet from the Dev for this thread:
@JeremyECrawford If you want to cast a spell but wait to release the magic in response to a trigger/circumstance, that's what the Ready action is for.
@TySQL Is it too late to counter a readied spell that has been triggered since you cast the spell on your turn and "hold it" until it triggers?
@JeremyECrawford Counterspell foils the casting of a spell, not the release of a spell that was cast previously using the Ready action.
It still feels pretty strange to me that the meta implied by this ruling is to always duck behind full cover and cast a spell from a position where you cannot see and you have no clear path to your intended target and then simply use some movement before releasing the spell. Or, maybe you declare that your wizard always walks around under some sort of big blanket or sheet and then he lifts it up to release the spell every time or something. This all just seems . . . not great.
Cover isn't always available but when it is, casters and ranged attackers should look for cover as much as possible, since they usually try to stay away from melee combat and it's a way to benefit from extra protection. Source of total cover is quite powerful to them, as they can just move in and out to take action and remain unreacheable between their turn while behind total cover.
But going behind total cover to Ready a Spell in hope of countering Counterspell only work if you can release the spell's energy from your position as you can't move during such reaction.
Why not? You can Ready the spell behind cover and make the trigger "When I have a clear shot at the target". So you start or jump behind cover, Ready the spell, use some/the rest of your movement to step out of cover, and spend your reaction to cast it.
Because you won't ever have a clear shot when behind total cover if you can't move from behind it. Readying movement is a different use of the Ready action.
If you're talking about half or three-quarter cover, then when you cast the spell while behind it, you still can be seen and will be able to see and release the spell's energy from behind such cover.
If you're talking about total cover, then when you cast the spell while behind it, if it's opaque you can't be seen nor can you see and release the spell's energy from behind such cover.
But going behind total cover to Ready a Spell in hope of countering Counterspell only work if you can release the spell's energy from your position as you can't move during such reaction.
If you're talking about total cover, then when you cast the spell while behind it, if it's opaque you can't be seen nor can you see and release the spell's energy from behind such cover.
He's talking about doing it all on your own turn. Start turn -> move behind cover - > take ready action -> move out -> reaction to release spell -> end turn.
You definitely make good points about cover and/or heavily obscured areas not always being accessible during combat and especially about the tradeoffs involved in using these tactics. I think that you guys have changed my mind about how all of this works via this thread discussion. It would not occur to me that you can cast a spell without choosing the targets for the spell, but upon rereading the appropriate rules it all does seem pretty legitimate.
The conceptual design thing that's happening is, you "cast" the spell when you ready the action, specifically meaning you spend the spell slot, spend/perform the components, etc. when you ready. (And has been noted, the target specification is part of the effects, not the components, so can be delayed until the reaction.)
That may well be the intention but I’m not sure that it is written. When the game contains cases where it is unclear, either we need direct statements or we are left to making rulings. I think allowing the target to be chosen when the spell is released is a fine ruling, I just have a hard time seeing it as “RAW” because the rules seem to have nothing written that addresses this.
Not really, right? On your turn, you take the Ready action to prepare, for example, an attack when you see an enemy entering the room. You're not taking the Attack action. In fact, if you Ready an action, you cannot make extra attacks; you only get one single attack if that trigger occurs.
One more thing to remember is that you choose a target when making the roll for a melee, ranged, or spell attack, and this will take effect when you finally use the reaction:
It's not written that you must choose target when Readying a spell neither so i'm not sure why you think it's RAW or a fine ruling when in fact you choose targets as part of a spell's effect according to the way spells are written.
That’s the part that makes it confusing. Nothing definitive is actually written either way. Yet you keep claiming your view is RAW. I’m just not sure why. What text are you basing your claim on?
I'm not saying it isn't the best way to rule. It probably is best to rule that you target when you release the spell or take the readied attack or whatever.
BUT it seems like just an implication, i.e. it isn't written out directly.
Do you really think when you ready web, that "You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. The webs fill a 20-foot cube from that point for the duration." or only when you release it as a reaction?
Do you really think when you ready magic missile that "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range." or only when you release it as a reaction?
Do you really think when you ready bless, that "You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range." or only when you release it as a reaction?
So evidently, when you ready a spell no spell effect occur until you release it as a reaction, and it's during the spell's effect that you choose target.
And multiple official rulings in SAC support that so if there's still any confusion it might be due to some misunderstanding on how spellcasting works in general.
You take the Ready action but that requires you to pick what action you will take when your trigger happens. And that would be the Attack action if you intend to make an attack.
This is true but it is also irrelevant. The Attack action never gives you the ability to make more than one attack. It is other game features that gives you that possibility and those features will tell you if/when you can make those additional attacks.
Extra attack is the most common one but there are others (Dread Ambusher for example) and in the description for Extra attack it says "whenever you take the Attack action on your turn" and thus it will not give you that additional attack if you have a readied Attack action that gets triggered on another creatures turn. This is also why you don't get more than one attack if you are allowed some other way to make an attack (like an opportunity attack with a reaction or TWF with a bonus action).
You also ready the Attack action to grapple or shove someone as a reaction.
Oh, man, your reasoning really opened my eyes! 😶 You're totally right.
Yeah? There's a whole section devoted to casting spells with longer casting time. All I'm saying is rather than implying it, they should have written it down. Then it would be RAW, rather than RAI.
And on the SAC note, often Sage Advice will tell you the reasoning why a ruling was made. Note the answers to each of the questions concerning this topic are only assertions with no reasoning. It's like they didn't have any rules to reason from.
Again, I'm not saying your wrong except for calling it RAW. This seems to be a textbook case of RAI: the rule isn't written anywhere, but there are implications all over the rest of the PHB.
If you use the rules in Xanathar's then the answer is yes.
"Invalid Spell Targets
A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.
If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target."
The rule from Xanathar's allows spells to be cast against invalid targets - they just don't do anything except expend the spell slot if the target is invalid. If you use this rule, it does allow characters to use recon by fire with any cantrip since when they aim it at a creature and hit the spell would do damage. However, this is probably better than having a character attempt to target everything in the room but then have the DM say "You can target the chest on the left" ... thus giving away that it is likely a mimic.
At least allowing invalid targets, forces the characters to actually cast the cantrip/spell in order to get any additional information.
P.S. I also find that allowing spells to be targeted at invalid targets makes more sense from a verisimilitude perspective ... the characters may not know what is a valid target or not so they should be able to cast the spell ... it just doesn't necessarily do anything. e.g. a character casting a charm effect on a "human" looking creature that is actually a vampire or undead. The charm effect does nothing but the player doesn't know whether the creature made its save or whether the target was invalid.
Hehe... It seems the Plaguescarred from the past agrees with the Plaguescarred from the present timeline: Ready Action - Same trigger different action
My mind has just linked this sentence from @DxJxC "Note that releasing the readied spell is not casting it (that was already done as an action), so it can't be countered at this time." with this interesting tweet from the Dev for this thread:
It still feels pretty strange to me that the meta implied by this ruling is to always duck behind full cover and cast a spell from a position where you cannot see and you have no clear path to your intended target and then simply use some movement before releasing the spell. Or, maybe you declare that your wizard always walks around under some sort of big blanket or sheet and then he lifts it up to release the spell every time or something. This all just seems . . . not great.
Cover isn't always available but when it is, casters and ranged attackers should look for cover as much as possible, since they usually try to stay away from melee combat and it's a way to benefit from extra protection. Source of total cover is quite powerful to them, as they can just move in and out to take action and remain unreacheable between their turn while behind total cover.
But going behind total cover to Ready a Spell in hope of countering Counterspell only work if you can release the spell's energy from your position as you can't move during such reaction.
Because you won't ever have a clear shot when behind total cover if you can't move from behind it. Readying movement is a different use of the Ready action.
If you're talking about half or three-quarter cover, then when you cast the spell while behind it, you still can be seen and will be able to see and release the spell's energy from behind such cover.
If you're talking about total cover, then when you cast the spell while behind it, if it's opaque you can't be seen nor can you see and release the spell's energy from behind such cover.
He's talking about doing it all on your own turn. Start turn -> move behind cover - > take ready action -> move out -> reaction to release spell -> end turn.
Ok in such case the net cos of such tactic is a reaction and some movement.
You definitely make good points about cover and/or heavily obscured areas not always being accessible during combat and especially about the tradeoffs involved in using these tactics. I think that you guys have changed my mind about how all of this works via this thread discussion. It would not occur to me that you can cast a spell without choosing the targets for the spell, but upon rereading the appropriate rules it all does seem pretty legitimate.
I'm glad to read that, up2ng! Amazing people here helping and solving questions. Thanks all!
In case any of you or future visitors are interested, there are some nice posts about Ready Action here in DnD.