The DM telling the player that the hit drops the bad guy down to less than 0 and then giving the player the choice of lethal or non lethal gives the player a HUGE advantage in the fight. He can put everything into every single attack and then decide if he wants the bad guy to live.
That is exactly how the rules work. This is the Rules & Mechanics forum. You're welcome to run your own game however you want, but if you want to talk about your house rules, this isn't the place for it.
Honestly I don't see why it would need to be changed unless you're aiming for the kind of "realism" that just translates as "making things harder on the players". The ability to consistently and safely knock someone unconscious is a staple trope for fantasy adventure stories, ergo it is left in the hands of the players to make the call in the moment. Changing the application either means at least half the table is going to get fed up with hearing "I attack nonlethally" in these situations, or it just means players have to worry about a bad roll or DM fiat messing up something RAW says they should be able to do at will.
Also, as I side note, I just realized that since it only checks for a "melee attack", not specifically a "melee weapon attack", you can use Shocking Grasp as a fantasy Taser.
"non-lethal" doesn't necessarily mean bludgeoning. Hamstringing the opponent is "non-lethal", for example.
I am an advocate that the extend of "non-lethal" damage is dependent on the weapon you choose to use for it. using a Greatclub or Warhammer will cause a concussion, using a greatsword means that one of their feet is off and they passed out from shock, that sort of thing - unless they declare they are using the flat or pulling the hit. I tend to use the "how do you want to do this" system, and seeing the responses here I will no longer insist that instant-death means you can't go non-lethal, but may incur the 2d4 day coma approach!
RAW, the rules don't conflict. The player deals excessive damage to a target, declares it non-lethal, the target is unconscious, stable, and dead. The non-lethal rules prevent the target from rolling death saves, but not from the instant death rule.
No where under Knocking a Creature Out does it state that the remaining damage is reduced or altered in any way. RAW, player agency is covered by the option to intend that the damage is non-lethal. Your right to swing your fist exercise absolute control of events ends at the other man's nose.
Although being dead isn't really listed as a condition in 5e per se, you can't be all of these things at the same time. In terms of game mechanics, the best description that I could find for what it means to be dead is in the Healing section of the Combat chapter where it says:
Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent
Which also means that if you are dead, damage is permanent.
Next, when a creature drops to 0 hit points, one of two things happens -- it dies or it falls unconscious. These two states are described as mutually exclusive here:
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious
As for being stable, we have this:
A stable creature that isn't healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4 hours
However, from above, we know that when you are dead, damage is permanent. Therefore, you cannot be both stable and dead.
Ok, so moving on to the question in the original post about instant death vs non-lethal damage. At first I was ready to fully agree and get behind David42's post #17 which said this:
"The instant death requires that there be damage remaining when the target is reduced to 0 hit points. If the attacker decides that the damage that reduced the target to zero hit points was non-lethal then there is no damage remaining so instant death doesn't occur. In addition, the non-lethal damage rule explicitly states that the target is unconscious and stable, not dead. So it is also a case of a more specific rule over-riding the general massive damage rule."
No where under Knocking a Creature Out does it state that the remaining damage is reduced or altered in any way.
In fact, this is absolutely correct. The target is hit, the damage is rolled, the target's hit points are reduced to zero, the player declares non-lethal damage, the remaining damage equals or exceeds the target's maximum hit points and the target is killed. The target is now dead.
After carefully reading through the entire section here is my explanation:
From above, we know that when a creature is reduced to 0 hit points, they either die instantly or they fall unconscious. At the moment when they fall unconscious, they are not stable.
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw
the creature can at least be stabilized so that it isn't killed by a failed death saving throw . . . A stable creature doesn't make death saving throws, even though it has 0 hit points, but it does remain unconscious
But the most important point that I'm really trying to get to is this:
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
and then immediately after this is a section on non-lethal damage which starts like this:
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow
So, if we followed all of that through logically we see that normally when we defeat a monster the DM will declare that monster dead even when just barely enough damage was dealt to reduce that monster's hit points to 0. Or, if they decide to follow the system through with the death saves, that monster is still at risk of dying. So, the ability to declare non-lethal damage protects against both of those possibilities by immediately causing such a creature to instead be alive and stable. So, the non-lethal option still has a ton of utility. It just doesn't prevent instant death from excessive damage.
Here is one more quick thought that I'll throw out to you guys and see if it sticks -- The text which describes a critical hit reads like this:
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target
Because it uses the phrase "get to", perhaps rolling extra dice for the attack's damage is . . . optional?
Massive damage only matters when Death Saving Throw is applicable since otherwise the monster die at 0 hit point unless it's knocked out. Underline is Monster and Death and Strikethrough is for Death Saving Throw;
Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death: When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
Falling Unconscious: If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious.
Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw...,
Monsters and Death
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
I think the RAW has been pretty clearly stated here and several times - you can declare non-lethal after the damage dice have been rolled. I personally permit that declaration of intent up to the moment I describe the outcome. From roll to hit, to damage, to post-celebration for superb damage. As long as it comes before I describe head explosions, it is fine with me.
I agree with this. I do not agree that the damage dealing character knows if his hit WILL cause a death or a knock out. It should, for the fun and suspense, be a guess on his part. If the character is trying to knock the bad guy out with a non lethal blow he should be just as surprised as the guy getting hit. If he makes a bad guess he might only take the guy down to 1 hit point and its up to the next character or the next round to finish it.
The DM telling the player that the hit drops the bad guy down to less than 0 and then giving the player the choice of lethal or non lethal gives the player a HUGE advantage in the fight. He can put everything into every single attack and then decide if he wants the bad guy to live.
I waffle on telling them whether the creature has reached 0 HP or not, but I fully acknowledge that this is a personal DM decision and not a rules based one. Sometimes I feel that the descriptions from previous rounds (the creature is bloody) are enough for the players to make informed decisions in this matter. Sometimes I might give the players a chance to make a decision if the creature has been reduced to 0 HP and that they are on an information gathering quest. Sometimes I might surprise them to demonstrate their overwhelming power by saying nothing about HP until there is blood everywhere. For me, it is case by case and my table seems to enjoy that.
That's explicitly not how it works, though. And really all that does is make everyone constantly announce nonlethal throughout combat when they want it, which from personal experience gets old fast.
While you're correct for the RAW on knocking out a creature, personally I think it's good for players to be clear about what they're doing upfront, as this allows DM's to smooth out cases like this.
Expecting them to do so is also technically part of the RAW, as players are really supposed to describe what they want to do, not just declare the mechanics (though we all do it), since it's really up to the DM to decide what you roll. So unless knocking out the target was a decision made during an ongoing fight, you should really be setting out to do it in the first place and declare it, i.e- "I want to sneak up to the guard and knock him out", so the DM can reply, "okay, make a Stealth check and if that succeeds you can make an unarmed strike with advantage" or whatever they decide makes most sense to achieve that goal (I would personally allow opposed Athletics for a chokehold situation).
If Initiative needs to be rolled and it takes multiple rounds, then by declaring in advance you don't need to do it every time, just confirm it's what you were doing if the DM forgot (that happens).
It's a good thing for players to get into the habit of doing anyway, because it can help inform the DM; for example, tanking in 5e is actually pretty difficult (as even with Sentinel you can only stop one creature per round from getting away), but if you tell the DM you're specifically trying to block an exit, or to stay between the enemy and an ally/NPC you're trying to protect, then they can use that to inform decisions rather than just using the letter of the rules to ignore your character and run past unless it absolutely makes more sense (creature is determined to escape, has no concern for its safety etc.).
Also just makes things more interesting rather than every fight being a felling each other competition; you might be using the exact same mechanics each time, but if the goals are different that adds variety, so it's always good to have narrative/goals to fights/turns etc.
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How i play it when PCs drops an enemy to 0 hit point it dies unless they say they want to knock it out. I play no game or second-guessing with them when they want to keep an enemy alive, usually as prisoner for later questioning or other reasons.
How i play it when PCs drops an enemy to 0 hit point it dies unless they say they want to knock it out. I play no game or second-guessing with them when they want to keep an enemy alive, usually as prisoner for later questioning or other reasons.
Yes, that is the standard at my table as well. Death, no saves. Giving them that understanding from session 0 is probably a good call out too, since they may not always be aware that this is the standard. The onus is then on the players to declare their intent at some point before the creature is described as dying and it avoids a situation later. I describe above some ways that I might indirectly communicate that the creature is approaching 0 HP so they have a chance to make that call if they wish. In my experience, the desire to preserve baddie life is not that common, but there are some rare cases the players at my table want to deviate from the norm.
The big thing is just to give them room and not make like they need to beat the QTE to announce it, imo. Just announcing they killed the target as soon as it hits zero and then going "but you didn't say you wanted it to be nonlethal" or making them jump through hoops to do it is clearly not RAW or RAI and will just make the experience more frustrating for people.
Here are the relevant rules. Knocking a Creature Out is very clearly a SPECIFIC rule that over rides the general rules for a creature Dropping to Zero Hit Points. The Dropping to Zero Hit Points details instant death from massive damage, falling unconscious, death saves, stabilizing a creature and how monsters are treated. The SPECIFIC subsequent rule over rides the general rules regarding dropping to 0 hit points by saying that if an attack reduces a target to zero hit points then the attacker has the CHOICE to incapacitate the creature instead of kill it - leaving it at zero hit points and in a stable condition not requiring death saving throws.
The rules do NOT result in an unconsious, stable and dead creature because the SPECIFIC rule on Knocking a Creature Out takes precedence over the general rule of what happens when a creature is reduced to zero hit points. There is no need to jump through hoops. Specific beats general. If an attacker decides to knock out their target then it is unconscious and stable and none of the other rules regarding reaching zero hit points are relevant.
Specific Beats General
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious. This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points.
Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other saving throws, this one isn’t tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw.
Roll a d20. If the roll is 10 or higher, you succeed. Otherwise, you fail. A success or failure has no effect by itself. On your third success, you become stable (see below). On your third failure, you die. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until you collect three of a kind. The number of both is reset to zero when you regain any hit points or become stable.
Rolling 1 or 20. When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on the d20, you regain 1 hit point.
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure. If the damage is from a critical hit, you suffer two failures instead. If the damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum, you suffer instant death.
Stabilizing a Creature
The best way to save a creature with 0 hit points is to heal it. If healing is unavailable, the creature can at least be stabilized so that it isn’t killed by a failed death saving throw.
You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.
A stable creature doesn’t make death saving throws, even though it has 0 hit points, but it does remain unconscious. The creature stops being stable, and must start making death saving throws again, if it takes any damage. A stable creature that isn’t healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4 hours.
Monsters and Death
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
I agree with you that this is a case of a specific rule overriding a general rule but I disagree with you about which rule is being overridden. Knocking a creature out is not replacing what happens to a creature who is dropped to zero hit points. It is replacing what happens to a creature who was dropped to zero hit points and falls unconscious. As a default, when a creature falls unconscious after dropping to zero hit points, either the DM declares that creature dead or they enter the process of death saving throws. But if non-lethal damage is then declared, such a creature is instead automatically stabilized.
The problematic portions of the rules that lead to this result are:
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
and:
the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt.
So, it's a question of timing. With massive damage, as soon as the damage is dealt the creature is dead. But you cannot make a decision to change this into non-lethal damage until the damage is dealt. By then, the creature is already dead, instantly.
Death occurs more slowly in the cases where there is not massive damage and the creature instead falls unconscious. With the first option, the damage is dealt but the DM has not yet declared it to be dead. That provides a window of opportunity to declare non-lethal damage and stabilize the creature. If death saving throws are used it could be several rounds before such a creature dies if it doesn't become stable on it's own so again there is a chance to declare non-lethal damage.
In most cases you can heal an NPC or at least stabilize them in any number of ways, skill, potion or magic. But can you save a creature with the same ease?
In most cases you can heal an NPC or at least stabilize them in any number of ways, skill, potion or magic. But can you save a creature with the same ease?
That's a DM question, and a pretty case-by-case one. Purely as an abstract idea, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to heal/stabilize a living being, although the exact definition of that in this context is a whole other can of worms, but I wouldn't allow it as a retcon after someone did a very fatal "how do you want to do this" scene (beheading, ripping organs out, blown apart, etc.). The "creatures die at 0 HP" rule at least half exists just to clarify that the DM isn't expected to track death saves for them unless they want to take a stab at keeping them in the game.
So, it's a question of timing. With massive damage, as soon as the damage is dealt the creature is dead. But you cannot make a decision to change this into non-lethal damage until the damage is dealt. By then, the creature is already dead, instantly.
There's some vagueness in the timing; the knock-out effect occurs the instant damage is dealt which arguably occurs before the hit-points are reduced (which is what triggers Instant Death), because there has to be a step during which modifiers, resistances etc. can occur so that you know how much the hit-points are actually reduced by. This means the triggers isn't strictly the same instant.
However, knocking-out is also arguably the more specific rule in this case since you must choose to do it, whereas instant death is always in effect by default, so knock-out will win in this case and override instant death; instant death says they die, knock out says they are unconscious and stable (not dying or dead) so in RAW the knock out probably wins.
But like I say, both of these are somewhat vague, as damage then hit-point reduction is never explicitly spelled out as separate steps, though there are rules that hint at a sequence of 1) take damage, 2) adjust damage, 3) reduce hit-points structure to it, which is important for reactions as well (see my post on this other thread for the quotes and reasoning on this).
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Do not read too much into this , there's no timing difference when damage is dealt based on ammount. When a creature is reduced to 0 hit point it's dead, wether it was dealt 30 or 274 damage. Massive damage can kill you instantly just like monsters die the instant it drops to 0 hit points.
The only moment you don't die instantly upon reaching 0 hit point is when Death Saving Throw are made.
Do not read too much into this , there's no timing difference when damage is dealt based on ammount
Of course there is; damage isn't immediately subtracted from hit-points, otherwise things like immunities, resistances and other modifiers simply wouldn't function. For Instant Death to occur you must be reduced to 0 hit-points first, because that's when the determination of Instant Death is made, but whether or not you hit 0 depends on how much damage you actually suffer (not just how much is caused initially). Or is that what you mean?
I've already linked to another post where I covered the relevant rules on the timing for this with regards to absorb elements and similar effects (which we all know are intended to actually work against the triggering effect, but don't explicitly say it), as while it's not explicitly spelled out there does seem to be a vague order to how you're supposed to apply damage.
And there are plenty of other cases when dropping to 0 doesn't mean you're dead, one of those is in the case of a non-lethal attack (which strictly speaking is declared when the damage occurs), as well as things like death ward, Relentless Endurance etc.
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Do not read too much into this , there's no timing difference when damage is dealt based on ammount
Of course there is; damage isn't immediately subtracted from hit-points, otherwise things like immunities, resistances and other modifiers simply wouldn't function. For Instant Death to occur you must be reduced to 0 hit-points first, because that's when the determination of Instant Death is made, but whether or not you hit 0 depends on how much damage you actually suffer (not just how much is caused initially). Or is that what you mean?
When a monster is dealt damage reducing itto 0 hit point, there's no timing difference based on ammount, it dies at that instant.
The only moment Instant Death rule would matter to a monster is if it had a trait or feature specifically usable when you don't die outright, such as a Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance, Barbarian's Restless Rage or Rage Beyond Death, Druid's Blazing Endurance, Monk's Mastery of Death, Paladin's Undying Sentinel, Sorcerer's Strength of the Grave, Warlock's Defy Death etc...but i don't know if one was ever published with such feature.
None of which matter when Knocking Out a Creature instead of killing it.
Ok, so assume for a moment that a DM rules that instant death from excessive damage takes priority. I really am curious about a question that I posed to the group earlier but it was buried in one of my long posts so I got no responses. I'd rather not create a new thread for it and I think it might still be relevant here so, what do you all think of this?
Here is one more quick thought that I'll throw out to you guys and see if it sticks -- The text which describes a critical hit reads like this:
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target
Because it uses the phrase "get to", perhaps rolling extra dice for the attack's damage is . . . optional?
As for the ongoing discussion, you all make good points about how maybe the timing of the events in question isn't so clear. I still think that the word "dealt" implies that all damage generated by the attack has already been applied to the subsequent reduction of hit points . . . both the amount that reduces the creature's hit points to 0 AND the clause about what happens when there is "damage remaining" have been fully resolved by the time the instant rolls around when you can declare non-lethal damage.
However, if you really do interpret the phrase "the instant the damage is dealt" to mean some moment before the HP is reduced, then clearly non-lethal damage would take priority.
At this point I think that both interpretations / rulings are reasonable.
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That is exactly how the rules work. This is the Rules & Mechanics forum. You're welcome to run your own game however you want, but if you want to talk about your house rules, this isn't the place for it.
Honestly I don't see why it would need to be changed unless you're aiming for the kind of "realism" that just translates as "making things harder on the players". The ability to consistently and safely knock someone unconscious is a staple trope for fantasy adventure stories, ergo it is left in the hands of the players to make the call in the moment. Changing the application either means at least half the table is going to get fed up with hearing "I attack nonlethally" in these situations, or it just means players have to worry about a bad roll or DM fiat messing up something RAW says they should be able to do at will.
Also, as I side note, I just realized that since it only checks for a "melee attack", not specifically a "melee weapon attack", you can use Shocking Grasp as a fantasy Taser.
"non-lethal" doesn't necessarily mean bludgeoning. Hamstringing the opponent is "non-lethal", for example.
I am an advocate that the extend of "non-lethal" damage is dependent on the weapon you choose to use for it. using a Greatclub or Warhammer will cause a concussion, using a greatsword means that one of their feet is off and they passed out from shock, that sort of thing - unless they declare they are using the flat or pulling the hit. I tend to use the "how do you want to do this" system, and seeing the responses here I will no longer insist that instant-death means you can't go non-lethal, but may incur the 2d4 day coma approach!
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RAW, the rules don't conflict. The player deals excessive damage to a target, declares it non-lethal, the target is unconscious, stable, and dead. The non-lethal rules prevent the target from rolling death saves, but not from the instant death rule.
No where under Knocking a Creature Out does it state that the remaining damage is reduced or altered in any way. RAW, player agency is covered by the option to intend that the damage is non-lethal. Your right to
swing your fistexercise absolute control of events ends at the other man's nose.Although being dead isn't really listed as a condition in 5e per se, you can't be all of these things at the same time. In terms of game mechanics, the best description that I could find for what it means to be dead is in the Healing section of the Combat chapter where it says:
Which also means that if you are dead, damage is permanent.
Next, when a creature drops to 0 hit points, one of two things happens -- it dies or it falls unconscious. These two states are described as mutually exclusive here:
As for being stable, we have this:
However, from above, we know that when you are dead, damage is permanent. Therefore, you cannot be both stable and dead.
Ok, so moving on to the question in the original post about instant death vs non-lethal damage. At first I was ready to fully agree and get behind David42's post #17 which said this:
"The instant death requires that there be damage remaining when the target is reduced to 0 hit points. If the attacker decides that the damage that reduced the target to zero hit points was non-lethal then there is no damage remaining so instant death doesn't occur. In addition, the non-lethal damage rule explicitly states that the target is unconscious and stable, not dead. So it is also a case of a more specific rule over-riding the general massive damage rule."
However, I changed my mind after reading this:
In fact, this is absolutely correct. The target is hit, the damage is rolled, the target's hit points are reduced to zero, the player declares non-lethal damage, the remaining damage equals or exceeds the target's maximum hit points and the target is killed. The target is now dead.
After carefully reading through the entire section here is my explanation:
From above, we know that when a creature is reduced to 0 hit points, they either die instantly or they fall unconscious. At the moment when they fall unconscious, they are not stable.
But the most important point that I'm really trying to get to is this:
and then immediately after this is a section on non-lethal damage which starts like this:
So, if we followed all of that through logically we see that normally when we defeat a monster the DM will declare that monster dead even when just barely enough damage was dealt to reduce that monster's hit points to 0. Or, if they decide to follow the system through with the death saves, that monster is still at risk of dying. So, the ability to declare non-lethal damage protects against both of those possibilities by immediately causing such a creature to instead be alive and stable. So, the non-lethal option still has a ton of utility. It just doesn't prevent instant death from excessive damage.
Here is one more quick thought that I'll throw out to you guys and see if it sticks -- The text which describes a critical hit reads like this:
Because it uses the phrase "get to", perhaps rolling extra dice for the attack's damage is . . . optional?
Massive damage only matters when Death Saving Throw is applicable since otherwise the monster die at 0 hit point unless it's knocked out. Underline is Monster and Death and
Strikethroughis for Death Saving Throw;Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death: When damage reduces you to 0 hit points a
nd there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.Falling Unconscious: If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious.Death Saving ThrowsWhenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw...,Monsters and Death
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points
, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
I waffle on telling them whether the creature has reached 0 HP or not, but I fully acknowledge that this is a personal DM decision and not a rules based one. Sometimes I feel that the descriptions from previous rounds (the creature is bloody) are enough for the players to make informed decisions in this matter. Sometimes I might give the players a chance to make a decision if the creature has been reduced to 0 HP and that they are on an information gathering quest. Sometimes I might surprise them to demonstrate their overwhelming power by saying nothing about HP until there is blood everywhere. For me, it is case by case and my table seems to enjoy that.
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While you're correct for the RAW on knocking out a creature, personally I think it's good for players to be clear about what they're doing upfront, as this allows DM's to smooth out cases like this.
Expecting them to do so is also technically part of the RAW, as players are really supposed to describe what they want to do, not just declare the mechanics (though we all do it), since it's really up to the DM to decide what you roll. So unless knocking out the target was a decision made during an ongoing fight, you should really be setting out to do it in the first place and declare it, i.e- "I want to sneak up to the guard and knock him out", so the DM can reply, "okay, make a Stealth check and if that succeeds you can make an unarmed strike with advantage" or whatever they decide makes most sense to achieve that goal (I would personally allow opposed Athletics for a chokehold situation).
If Initiative needs to be rolled and it takes multiple rounds, then by declaring in advance you don't need to do it every time, just confirm it's what you were doing if the DM forgot (that happens).
It's a good thing for players to get into the habit of doing anyway, because it can help inform the DM; for example, tanking in 5e is actually pretty difficult (as even with Sentinel you can only stop one creature per round from getting away), but if you tell the DM you're specifically trying to block an exit, or to stay between the enemy and an ally/NPC you're trying to protect, then they can use that to inform decisions rather than just using the letter of the rules to ignore your character and run past unless it absolutely makes more sense (creature is determined to escape, has no concern for its safety etc.).
Also just makes things more interesting rather than every fight being a felling each other competition; you might be using the exact same mechanics each time, but if the goals are different that adds variety, so it's always good to have narrative/goals to fights/turns etc.
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How i play it when PCs drops an enemy to 0 hit point it dies unless they say they want to knock it out. I play no game or second-guessing with them when they want to keep an enemy alive, usually as prisoner for later questioning or other reasons.
Yes, that is the standard at my table as well. Death, no saves. Giving them that understanding from session 0 is probably a good call out too, since they may not always be aware that this is the standard. The onus is then on the players to declare their intent at some point before the creature is described as dying and it avoids a situation later. I describe above some ways that I might indirectly communicate that the creature is approaching 0 HP so they have a chance to make that call if they wish. In my experience, the desire to preserve baddie life is not that common, but there are some rare cases the players at my table want to deviate from the norm.
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The big thing is just to give them room and not make like they need to beat the QTE to announce it, imo. Just announcing they killed the target as soon as it hits zero and then going "but you didn't say you wanted it to be nonlethal" or making them jump through hoops to do it is clearly not RAW or RAI and will just make the experience more frustrating for people.
Here are the relevant rules. Knocking a Creature Out is very clearly a SPECIFIC rule that over rides the general rules for a creature Dropping to Zero Hit Points. The Dropping to Zero Hit Points details instant death from massive damage, falling unconscious, death saves, stabilizing a creature and how monsters are treated. The SPECIFIC subsequent rule over rides the general rules regarding dropping to 0 hit points by saying that if an attack reduces a target to zero hit points then the attacker has the CHOICE to incapacitate the creature instead of kill it - leaving it at zero hit points and in a stable condition not requiring death saving throws.
The rules do NOT result in an unconsious, stable and dead creature because the SPECIFIC rule on Knocking a Creature Out takes precedence over the general rule of what happens when a creature is reduced to zero hit points. There is no need to jump through hoops. Specific beats general. If an attacker decides to knock out their target then it is unconscious and stable and none of the other rules regarding reaching zero hit points are relevant.
Specific Beats General
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious. This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points.
Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other saving throws, this one isn’t tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw.
Roll a d20![]()
. If the roll is 10 or higher, you succeed. Otherwise, you fail. A success or failure has no effect by itself. On your third success, you become stable (see below). On your third failure, you die. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until you collect three of a kind. The number of both is reset to zero when you regain any hit points or become stable.
Rolling 1 or 20. When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20![]()
, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on the d20![]()
, you regain 1 hit point.
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure. If the damage is from a critical hit, you suffer two failures instead. If the damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum, you suffer instant death.
Stabilizing a Creature
The best way to save a creature with 0 hit points is to heal it. If healing is unavailable, the creature can at least be stabilized so that it isn’t killed by a failed death saving throw.
A stable creature doesn’t make death saving throws, even though it has 0 hit points, but it does remain unconscious. The creature stops being stable, and must start making death saving throws again, if it takes any damage. A stable creature that isn’t healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4![]()
hours.
Monsters and Death
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
I agree with you that this is a case of a specific rule overriding a general rule but I disagree with you about which rule is being overridden. Knocking a creature out is not replacing what happens to a creature who is dropped to zero hit points. It is replacing what happens to a creature who was dropped to zero hit points and falls unconscious. As a default, when a creature falls unconscious after dropping to zero hit points, either the DM declares that creature dead or they enter the process of death saving throws. But if non-lethal damage is then declared, such a creature is instead automatically stabilized.
The problematic portions of the rules that lead to this result are:
and:
So, it's a question of timing. With massive damage, as soon as the damage is dealt the creature is dead. But you cannot make a decision to change this into non-lethal damage until the damage is dealt. By then, the creature is already dead, instantly.
Death occurs more slowly in the cases where there is not massive damage and the creature instead falls unconscious. With the first option, the damage is dealt but the DM has not yet declared it to be dead. That provides a window of opportunity to declare non-lethal damage and stabilize the creature. If death saving throws are used it could be several rounds before such a creature dies if it doesn't become stable on it's own so again there is a chance to declare non-lethal damage.
In most cases you can heal an NPC or at least stabilize them in any number of ways, skill, potion or magic. But can you save a creature with the same ease?
That's a DM question, and a pretty case-by-case one. Purely as an abstract idea, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to heal/stabilize a living being, although the exact definition of that in this context is a whole other can of worms, but I wouldn't allow it as a retcon after someone did a very fatal "how do you want to do this" scene (beheading, ripping organs out, blown apart, etc.). The "creatures die at 0 HP" rule at least half exists just to clarify that the DM isn't expected to track death saves for them unless they want to take a stab at keeping them in the game.
There's some vagueness in the timing; the knock-out effect occurs the instant damage is dealt which arguably occurs before the hit-points are reduced (which is what triggers Instant Death), because there has to be a step during which modifiers, resistances etc. can occur so that you know how much the hit-points are actually reduced by. This means the triggers isn't strictly the same instant.
However, knocking-out is also arguably the more specific rule in this case since you must choose to do it, whereas instant death is always in effect by default, so knock-out will win in this case and override instant death; instant death says they die, knock out says they are unconscious and stable (not dying or dead) so in RAW the knock out probably wins.
But like I say, both of these are somewhat vague, as damage then hit-point reduction is never explicitly spelled out as separate steps, though there are rules that hint at a sequence of 1) take damage, 2) adjust damage, 3) reduce hit-points structure to it, which is important for reactions as well (see my post on this other thread for the quotes and reasoning on this).
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Do not read too much into this , there's no timing difference when damage is dealt based on ammount. When a creature is reduced to 0 hit point it's dead, wether it was dealt 30 or 274 damage. Massive damage can kill you instantly just like monsters die the instant it drops to 0 hit points.
The only moment you don't die instantly upon reaching 0 hit point is when Death Saving Throw are made.
Of course there is; damage isn't immediately subtracted from hit-points, otherwise things like immunities, resistances and other modifiers simply wouldn't function. For Instant Death to occur you must be reduced to 0 hit-points first, because that's when the determination of Instant Death is made, but whether or not you hit 0 depends on how much damage you actually suffer (not just how much is caused initially). Or is that what you mean?
I've already linked to another post where I covered the relevant rules on the timing for this with regards to absorb elements and similar effects (which we all know are intended to actually work against the triggering effect, but don't explicitly say it), as while it's not explicitly spelled out there does seem to be a vague order to how you're supposed to apply damage.
And there are plenty of other cases when dropping to 0 doesn't mean you're dead, one of those is in the case of a non-lethal attack (which strictly speaking is declared when the damage occurs), as well as things like death ward, Relentless Endurance etc.
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When a monster is dealt damage reducing itto 0 hit point, there's no timing difference based on ammount, it dies at that instant.
The only moment Instant Death rule would matter to a monster is if it had a trait or feature specifically usable when you don't die outright, such as a Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance, Barbarian's Restless Rage or Rage Beyond Death, Druid's Blazing Endurance, Monk's Mastery of Death, Paladin's Undying Sentinel, Sorcerer's Strength of the Grave, Warlock's Defy Death etc...but i don't know if one was ever published with such feature.
None of which matter when Knocking Out a Creature instead of killing it.
Ok, so assume for a moment that a DM rules that instant death from excessive damage takes priority. I really am curious about a question that I posed to the group earlier but it was buried in one of my long posts so I got no responses. I'd rather not create a new thread for it and I think it might still be relevant here so, what do you all think of this?
As for the ongoing discussion, you all make good points about how maybe the timing of the events in question isn't so clear. I still think that the word "dealt" implies that all damage generated by the attack has already been applied to the subsequent reduction of hit points . . . both the amount that reduces the creature's hit points to 0 AND the clause about what happens when there is "damage remaining" have been fully resolved by the time the instant rolls around when you can declare non-lethal damage.
However, if you really do interpret the phrase "the instant the damage is dealt" to mean some moment before the HP is reduced, then clearly non-lethal damage would take priority.
At this point I think that both interpretations / rulings are reasonable.