Let’s say you are a character, and a College of Creation Bard had given you bardic inspiration (mote of potential). And you are knocked unconscious. You then make a death saving throw, using the bardic inspiration. The mote of potential applies and gives you temporary hit points. (this is just one example of temporary hit point being granted to an unconscious player, but there are many others)
The point is: What do temporary hit points do for an dying player?
Temporary hit points don’t prevent saves from being rolled or failed. They don’t do this while you’re conscious and wouldn’t do this while unconscious or at zero hit points.
Temporary hit points don’t increase a characters maximum hit points either, so no protection from auto death if damage taken is equal to or more than hit point maximum.
seems like it does nothing to me since it doesn’t stabilize you or bring you back up to consciousness either.
Temporary Hit points actually does nothing for you while you have 0 hit points, you’re still taking damage and thus suffer a death saving throw failure.
If I have 10 temporary hit points and I take 30 damage from an attack while concentrating on a spell, what is the DC of the Constitution save to maintain my concentration? The DC is 15 in that case. When temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you’re still taking damage, just not to your real hit points. In contrast, a feature like the wizard’s Arcane Ward can take damage for you, potentially eliminating the need to make a Constitution saving throw or, at least, lowering the DC of that save.
Honestly, to me that appears to be another incorrect ruling from Sage Advice. There are several rules regarding temporary hit points in Chapter 9 that directly contradicts this ruling:
Temporary hit points . . . are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
and
For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage.
and
If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn't restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you.
So now we have to use all of that information to resolve this rule:
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
I would rule that if you are at 0 HP and unstable but you do have temporary hit points, then any incoming damage must exceed your total temporary hit points in order to cause you to suffer a death saving throw failure.
All the “buffer” does is absorb the damage by taking away your temperature hit points when you’re at zero. Not only does temporary hit points not do anything for you at zero, it potentially wastes your temporary hit points since they’d be more effective if you have hit points.
what these rules really seem to say is that most sources of temporary hit points are just wasted if your at zero and receive them. Anything else is a home brew or a new feature I don’t know about.
I’ve say this because this is the rules and mechanics forum. What I and others think it should do is a different matter.
RAW you take damage wether you loose hit points or temporary one and the Sage Advice official ruling reflects that;
Temporary Hit Points: When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points.
When THP absorb damage, you are still taking the damage
If you have 0 hp, you have 0 hp even when you have THP
If you take damage while you have 0 hp, you suffer a death saving throw failure
Each of those statements has been quoted individually above. When you read them all together, we reach the conclusion that having THP cannot save you from suffering a death saving throw failure when you take damage while at 0 hp.
Okay, so there are two sides, both believing to be citing RAW in support of their claim:
Claim 1: If you take damage while unstable, it causes a death save failure, regardless of extenuating circumstances (such as temporary damage to absorb the blow)
Claim 2: If you take damage while unstable and have temporary hit points exceeding the incoming damage, you do not automatically fail a death save. If the temporary hit points are less than incoming, they are drained fully, leaving excess damage to cause a death save failure.
Since the conversation seems to be going nowhere regardless of citing RAW, we must go on debating what THE RAW SHOULD BE. Not what it currently is.
It will likely depend on this question: what are temporary hit points in the context of the game? Are they a force field or armor to absorb damage? Or are they a representation of the flesh itself being magically enhanced to be tougher?
For the discussion of the above question, only effects that provide temporary hit points (spells, class features, etc.) should be cited, as other pieces of evidence proved to be insufficient for convincing the opposing side
Moreover, it is possible that temporary hit points represent both flesh enhancement and damage absorption, the specifics depending on the source. In such a case, perhaps it should be split into two separate effects.
Except for a Sage Advice ruling, I still have not seen anyone quote actual text from the books that suggests the interpretation that you are claiming. For example:
Temporary Hit points actually does nothing for you while you have 0 hit points, you’re still taking damage and thus suffer a death saving throw failure.
When THP absorb damage, you are still taking the damage
Please quote some text from the rulebooks that support these above claims . . .
-----
Allow me to present some facts, supported by text from the books:
First, very consistently throughout Chapter 9, damage is synonymous with hit points. The concept of a creature taking damage equates to a loss of hit points and vice versa. In other words, the difference between the Hit Point maximum and the Current Hit Points is a measure of damage taken. This is seen in the following rules:
Hit Points
. . .
A creature's current hit points (usually just called hit points) can be any number from the creature's hit point maximum down to 0. This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing.
Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points. . . .
and
Healing
Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent. . . . Rest can restore a creature's hit points, and magical methods such as a cure wounds spell or a potion of healingcan remove damage in an instant.
When a creature receives healing of any kind, hit points regained are added to its current hit points . . .
and
Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, . . .
Instant Death
. . . When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
. . .
Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious. . . .
Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw . . .
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
and yet, in the rules for Temporary Hit Points, we have:
Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points;
and
they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
and
the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points.
and of course:
If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn't restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you.
and here is some text that is pretty subtle in how it relates to this, but is actually pretty important:
Healing can't restore temporary hit points
the reason why this is important conceptually is because "Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent . . . a cure wounds spell or a potion of healingcan remove damage in an instant. Therefore, Temporary Hit Points cannot represent damage, and damage cannot be reflected in a loss of Temporary Hit Points. When Temporary Hit Points are reduced, it is more accurate to describe it as a situation where the damage was redirected elsewhere -- the creature did not take that damage. Otherwise, it could be healed, by rule. Because, "Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent."
-----
So, this brings us back around to the one main problem -- which I suspect is the main issue that is tripping people up: And that is this paragraph:
"When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage."
Like, you can't "take" 7 damage and simultaneously be in a universe where you actually "take" 2 damage. As it stands, this entire paragraph is literally nonsensical and desperately needs to be modified via errata. Logically, this description is not possible to interpret since it directly contradicts itself.
Therefore, it is the task of the DM to choose one of two possible alternate interpretations of that paragraph:
1. Based on, well, virtually nothing, it could be interpreted to mean: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then your current HP is reduced by 2".
OR,
2. Staying consistent with all of the rest of the text from Chapter 9, it could be interpreted to mean: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and 7 damage is dealt to you, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage." Or, maybe some other phrasing such as: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and an attack or other effect occurs that would normally cause you to take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage instead."
In my opinion, it's option 2, which aligns much more closely with how the rest of the Chapter is presented as quoted above.
Temporary hit points don’t reduce damage taken. The creature takes that damage. It separates the damage between two distinct resource pools, hit points and temporary hit points.
You seem to want to interpret temporary hit points more like the abjuration wizards arcane ward. Those are distinctly different features. Arcane ward is a feature that takes the damage and is a separate entity. As such when it takes damage, saves and other in game effects caused by damage can be potentially averted. A creature with temporary hitpoints still takes the damage.
unless your willing to say you think temporary hitpoints prevents damage/saving throws when conscious, which isn’t the case, then there’s no reason to believe they would do that for an unconscious creature.
the sole “protection” temporary hitpoints offers is to deplete first before your hitpoints get touched. Regardless of how mechanically insignificant temporary hitpoints are to 0 hitpoints creatures, this is the case.
Except for a Sage Advice ruling, I still have not seen anyone quote actual text from the books that suggests the interpretation that you are claiming.
RAW the rules have been quoted, as well as official ruling from Sage Advice. When temporary hit points absorbs damage, you're still taking damage, and when you do, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
While not official ruling, the Dev also clarified on Twitter that when temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you're still taking damage and it's probably the Q&A that prompted the Sage Advice.
@Mathew_Reuther If my Temporary Hit Points are 10 and I take 30 damage from an attack, what is the DC of my Concentration Check?
@JeremyECrawfordThe DC is 15. When temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you're still taking damage, just not to your real hit points.
You seem to want to interpret temporary hit points more like the abjuration wizards arcane ward.
unless your willing to say you think temporary hitpoints prevents damage/saving throws when conscious
Yes, as written this does appear to be the case with temporary hit points. There are actually some striking parallels between the description for the arcane ward feature and the rules for temporary hit points. For example:
arcane ward: "Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage.
temporary hit points: "When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points.
I can appreciate that in the case of arcane ward, the word "instead" was explicitly used -- it's poorly written, but it's better written than the temporary hit points rule which is tragically terribly written. But this word "instead" is implied in the temporary hit points rule by specifying that temporary hit points are lost "first". In other words, the temporary hit points are reduced "instead of" the hit points.
Basically, it is exactly the same rule. In both cases they should NOT have started with the phrase "whenever you take damage" because it leads to the confusion that we see in this thread where it is then assumed that we, indeed, took damage when in fact we did not.
Also:
arcane ward: "While the ward has 0 hit points, it can't absorb damage"
temporary hit points: "[temporary hit points] can still absorb damage directed at you"
Like the arcane ward, you can also think of temporary hit points as a "separate entity" although it's a bit more abstract than in the case of the arcane ward. I quite like how a previous poster described it -- like a forcefield around you. It's really not a part of you like hit points are. Just compare their descriptions:
Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile.
. . . This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing.
vs
Some spells and special abilities confer temporary hit points to a creature. Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
. . . temporary hit points are separate from your actual hit points
. . . Healing can't restore temporary hit points
Hit points are like an attribute of the creature itself. Temporary hit points are like extra protection that's given (conferred) to you.
-----
As already explained in previous posts, the rules state that whenever a creature takes damage, its hit points are reduced:
Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points
Also, there is the issue of being able to heal damage, by rule:
Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent. . . . magical methods such as a cure wounds spell or a potion of healing can remove damage in an instant.
When a creature receives healing of any kind, hit points regained are added to its current hit points.
And yet:
Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points . . . Healing can't restore temporary hit points
Taken together, a creature that takes damage loses hit points, not temporary hit points. Temporary hit points are not actual hit points so they cannot be used as a substitute for taking damage. Temporary hit points also do not represent damage taken, since they cannot be healed -- and damage can be healed unless you are dead.
Instead, temporary hit points absorb damage that would have been taken, because these are reduced before hit points are reduced. If there is still damage left over, then the creature takes that damage.
Please quote some text from the rulebooks that support these above claims . . .
I am quoting from this SAC entry, which is considered RAW for the purposes of this channel. If you are narrowing the scope of your request to something specifically from the PHB or other published rule books, then you can disregard my answer... it's meant for the larger discussion.
Please quote some text from the rulebooks that support these above claims . . .
I am quoting from this SAC entry, which is considered RAW for the purposes of this channel. If you are narrowing the scope of your request to something specifically from the PHB or other published rule books, then you can disregard my answer... it's meant for the larger discussion.
That’s a bad ruling as it contradicts actual RAW in several places.
The major difference between Arcane Ward and Temporary Hit Points is that Arcane Ward takes the damage instead of you.
Well, as I said my interpretation is that the temporary hit points take the damage instead of the actual hit points, which would be the same thing.
But that's not even the main problem that we are running into here. The problem has to do with triggers. In both cases, the phrase "whenever you take damage" is used. That is a trigger. In fact, I can remember a previous thread that discussed arcane ward, and I was likely arguing that if something triggers whenever you take damage, then that thing would not be prevented by arcane ward. In this case with the temporary hit points, the argument is that the rule for death saving throws is triggered.
But if we are saying, in both cases, that the extremely poorly written "whenever you take damage [you don't actually take damage]" really means that you never actually took damage, then maybe we can justify ignoring the trigger, because it didn't really happen.
However that is ruled for arcane ward should be the same ruling for temporary hit points. I recognize that the dev tweets and the Sage Advice says otherwise, but those rulings are wrong.
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Let’s say you are a character, and a College of Creation Bard had given you bardic inspiration (mote of potential). And you are knocked unconscious. You then make a death saving throw, using the bardic inspiration. The mote of potential applies and gives you temporary hit points. (this is just one example of temporary hit point being granted to an unconscious player, but there are many others)
The point is: What do temporary hit points do for an dying player?
"If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn't restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you."
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Temporary hit points don’t prevent saves from being rolled or failed. They don’t do this while you’re conscious and wouldn’t do this while unconscious or at zero hit points.
Temporary hit points don’t increase a characters maximum hit points either, so no protection from auto death if damage taken is equal to or more than hit point maximum.
seems like it does nothing to me since it doesn’t stabilize you or bring you back up to consciousness either.
Temporary Hit points actually does nothing for you while you have 0 hit points, you’re still taking damage and thus suffer a death saving throw failure.
From Sage Advice Compendium;
Honestly, to me that appears to be another incorrect ruling from Sage Advice. There are several rules regarding temporary hit points in Chapter 9 that directly contradicts this ruling:
and
and
So now we have to use all of that information to resolve this rule:
I would rule that if you are at 0 HP and unstable but you do have temporary hit points, then any incoming damage must exceed your total temporary hit points in order to cause you to suffer a death saving throw failure.
All the “buffer” does is absorb the damage by taking away your temperature hit points when you’re at zero. Not only does temporary hit points not do anything for you at zero, it potentially wastes your temporary hit points since they’d be more effective if you have hit points.
what these rules really seem to say is that most sources of temporary hit points are just wasted if your at zero and receive them. Anything else is a home brew or a new feature I don’t know about.
I’ve say this because this is the rules and mechanics forum. What I and others think it should do is a different matter.
What is your point in making this statement? Why don't you go ahead and quote some rules that support your point of view on this topic?
RAW you take damage wether you loose hit points or temporary one and the Sage Advice official ruling reflects that;
You have to take damage to loose temporary hit points and if you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
Each of those statements has been quoted individually above. When you read them all together, we reach the conclusion that having THP cannot save you from suffering a death saving throw failure when you take damage while at 0 hp.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Okay, so there are two sides, both believing to be citing RAW in support of their claim:
Claim 1: If you take damage while unstable, it causes a death save failure, regardless of extenuating circumstances (such as temporary damage to absorb the blow)
Claim 2: If you take damage while unstable and have temporary hit points exceeding the incoming damage, you do not automatically fail a death save. If the temporary hit points are less than incoming, they are drained fully, leaving excess damage to cause a death save failure.
Since the conversation seems to be going nowhere regardless of citing RAW, we must go on debating what THE RAW SHOULD BE. Not what it currently is.
It will likely depend on this question: what are temporary hit points in the context of the game? Are they a force field or armor to absorb damage? Or are they a representation of the flesh itself being magically enhanced to be tougher?
For the discussion of the above question, only effects that provide temporary hit points (spells, class features, etc.) should be cited, as other pieces of evidence proved to be insufficient for convincing the opposing side
Moreover, it is possible that temporary hit points represent both flesh enhancement and damage absorption, the specifics depending on the source. In such a case, perhaps it should be split into two separate effects.
Except for a Sage Advice ruling, I still have not seen anyone quote actual text from the books that suggests the interpretation that you are claiming. For example:
Please quote some text from the rulebooks that support these above claims . . .
-----
Allow me to present some facts, supported by text from the books:
First, very consistently throughout Chapter 9, damage is synonymous with hit points. The concept of a creature taking damage equates to a loss of hit points and vice versa. In other words, the difference between the Hit Point maximum and the Current Hit Points is a measure of damage taken. This is seen in the following rules:
and
and
and yet, in the rules for Temporary Hit Points, we have:
and
and
and of course:
and here is some text that is pretty subtle in how it relates to this, but is actually pretty important:
the reason why this is important conceptually is because "Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent . . . a cure wounds spell or a potion of healing can remove damage in an instant. Therefore, Temporary Hit Points cannot represent damage, and damage cannot be reflected in a loss of Temporary Hit Points. When Temporary Hit Points are reduced, it is more accurate to describe it as a situation where the damage was redirected elsewhere -- the creature did not take that damage. Otherwise, it could be healed, by rule. Because, "Unless it results in death, damage isn't permanent."
-----
So, this brings us back around to the one main problem -- which I suspect is the main issue that is tripping people up: And that is this paragraph:
"When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage."
Like, you can't "take" 7 damage and simultaneously be in a universe where you actually "take" 2 damage. As it stands, this entire paragraph is literally nonsensical and desperately needs to be modified via errata. Logically, this description is not possible to interpret since it directly contradicts itself.
Therefore, it is the task of the DM to choose one of two possible alternate interpretations of that paragraph:
1. Based on, well, virtually nothing, it could be interpreted to mean: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then your current HP is reduced by 2".
OR,
2. Staying consistent with all of the rest of the text from Chapter 9, it could be interpreted to mean: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and 7 damage is dealt to you, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage." Or, maybe some other phrasing such as: "For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and an attack or other effect occurs that would normally cause you to take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage instead."
In my opinion, it's option 2, which aligns much more closely with how the rest of the Chapter is presented as quoted above.
Temporary hit points don’t reduce damage taken. The creature takes that damage. It separates the damage between two distinct resource pools, hit points and temporary hit points.
You seem to want to interpret temporary hit points more like the abjuration wizards arcane ward. Those are distinctly different features. Arcane ward is a feature that takes the damage and is a separate entity. As such when it takes damage, saves and other in game effects caused by damage can be potentially averted. A creature with temporary hitpoints still takes the damage.
unless your willing to say you think temporary hitpoints prevents damage/saving throws when conscious, which isn’t the case, then there’s no reason to believe they would do that for an unconscious creature.
the sole “protection” temporary hitpoints offers is to deplete first before your hitpoints get touched. Regardless of how mechanically insignificant temporary hitpoints are to 0 hitpoints creatures, this is the case.
RAW the rules have been quoted, as well as official ruling from Sage Advice. When temporary hit points absorbs damage, you're still taking damage, and when you do, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
While not official ruling, the Dev also clarified on Twitter that when temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you're still taking damage and it's probably the Q&A that prompted the Sage Advice.
Yes, as written this does appear to be the case with temporary hit points. There are actually some striking parallels between the description for the arcane ward feature and the rules for temporary hit points. For example:
arcane ward: "Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage.
temporary hit points: "When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points.
I can appreciate that in the case of arcane ward, the word "instead" was explicitly used -- it's poorly written, but it's better written than the temporary hit points rule which is tragically terribly written. But this word "instead" is implied in the temporary hit points rule by specifying that temporary hit points are lost "first". In other words, the temporary hit points are reduced "instead of" the hit points.
Basically, it is exactly the same rule. In both cases they should NOT have started with the phrase "whenever you take damage" because it leads to the confusion that we see in this thread where it is then assumed that we, indeed, took damage when in fact we did not.
Also:
arcane ward: "While the ward has 0 hit points, it can't absorb damage"
temporary hit points: "[temporary hit points] can still absorb damage directed at you"
Like the arcane ward, you can also think of temporary hit points as a "separate entity" although it's a bit more abstract than in the case of the arcane ward. I quite like how a previous poster described it -- like a forcefield around you. It's really not a part of you like hit points are. Just compare their descriptions:
vs
Hit points are like an attribute of the creature itself. Temporary hit points are like extra protection that's given (conferred) to you.
-----
As already explained in previous posts, the rules state that whenever a creature takes damage, its hit points are reduced:
Also, there is the issue of being able to heal damage, by rule:
And yet:
Taken together, a creature that takes damage loses hit points, not temporary hit points. Temporary hit points are not actual hit points so they cannot be used as a substitute for taking damage. Temporary hit points also do not represent damage taken, since they cannot be healed -- and damage can be healed unless you are dead.
Instead, temporary hit points absorb damage that would have been taken, because these are reduced before hit points are reduced. If there is still damage left over, then the creature takes that damage.
I am quoting from this SAC entry, which is considered RAW for the purposes of this channel. If you are narrowing the scope of your request to something specifically from the PHB or other published rule books, then you can disregard my answer... it's meant for the larger discussion.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The major difference between Arcane Ward and Temporary Hit Points is that Arcane Ward takes the damage instead of you.
That’s a bad ruling as it contradicts actual RAW in several places.
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Well, as I said my interpretation is that the temporary hit points take the damage instead of the actual hit points, which would be the same thing.
But that's not even the main problem that we are running into here. The problem has to do with triggers. In both cases, the phrase "whenever you take damage" is used. That is a trigger. In fact, I can remember a previous thread that discussed arcane ward, and I was likely arguing that if something triggers whenever you take damage, then that thing would not be prevented by arcane ward. In this case with the temporary hit points, the argument is that the rule for death saving throws is triggered.
But if we are saying, in both cases, that the extremely poorly written "whenever you take damage [you don't actually take damage]" really means that you never actually took damage, then maybe we can justify ignoring the trigger, because it didn't really happen.
However that is ruled for arcane ward should be the same ruling for temporary hit points. I recognize that the dev tweets and the Sage Advice says otherwise, but those rulings are wrong.