That's not what the ruling said. The question was if spells cast from wizard Spellcasting that are on the sorcerer spell list count as sorcerer spells, at least for the purpose of Wild Magic. The answer was that only spells learned from sorcerer count as such.
Yeah, I think we're saying the same thing on that? If a spell appears on both the Wizard and the Sorcerer lists and you prepare the spell using the Wizard's rules for preparing spells and you cast the spell using the Wizard Spellcasting Feature, then that spell is a Wizard spell and not a Sorcerer spell. It's coming from the Wizard Spell list since that's how the Wizard prepares his spells.
I guess I got confused because you were saying things about higher level spells that weren't really relevant to the ruling.
But that doesn't mean that we should conclude that "Wizard spell" means a spell that you cast using the Wizard Spellcasting Feature. A Wizard spell is just a spell that you access though the Wizard Spell list.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Ok, I see. The ruling used the phrase "only the spells gained from levels in sorcerer trigger Wild Magic Surge". That's kind of odd phrasing and I thought it was talking about needing enough Sorcerer levels within a multi-classed character to be able to cast the spell, but that's really only one possible reason why you might be using the Wizard Spellcasting Feature instead of the Sorcerer Spellcasting Feature to cast the spell. To trigger the Wild Magic Surge, it must be a sorcerer spell so it must be prepared and cast using the Sorcerer class's spellcasting rules.
This is a good question, I'm not sure that this is specified anywhere. My assumption is that since we are not casting the spell by using a Spellcasting Feature (we don't even have to be a spellcaster to use this item) and instead have access to the spell through the item (and yet we are casting it), then perhaps we can choose which list the spell is taken from when we cast it? I'm not sure how this would be determined otherwise.
This is a good question, I'm not sure that this is specified anywhere. My assumption is that since we are not casting the spell by using a Spellcasting Feature (we don't even have to be a spellcaster to use this item) and instead have access to the spell through the item (and yet we are casting it), then perhaps we can choose which list the spell is taken from when we cast it? I'm not sure how this would be determined otherwise.
I don't see why it would be determined. Why does it come from any list at all?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
That's another possibility for sure. I can't think of any rules that would help to clarify that.
I'll just bring up a couple of things that are maybe related or maybe not:
The spell scroll magic item has this text: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell". Then, there is this: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied". If you were a multi-classed Wizard/Sorcerer and found a scroll of magic missile, how can we determine if this is a Wizard spell?
A 5th level Tiefling Barbarian can cast Darkness. How do we determine which list this comes from, or does it come from no list at all?
Then why does magic missile, which is on the sorcerer spell list, not activate Wild Magic Surge?
What makes you think it doesn't activate it? Wild Magic Surge, trigger immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, which magic missile is.
While not official ruling, when asked on Twitter the Dev said it does trigger even when using Wand of magic missiles ;
@TheMaDdi3 Wild magic sorcerer uses a wand of magic missiles, can he trigger a Wild Magic Surge?
Then why does magic missile, which is on the sorcerer spell list, not activate Wild Magic Surge?
What makes you think it doesn't activate it? Wild Magic Surge, trigger immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, which magic missile is.
While not official ruling, when asked on Twitter the Dev said it does trigger even when using Wand of magic missiles ;
@TheMaDdi3 Wild magic sorcerer uses a wand of magic missiles, can he trigger a Wild Magic Surge?
@JeremyECrawford Yes.
Sigh
This is why, if you're a source of rulings, you should not be shooting from the hip all the time. Or you need to have a consistent rules model in your head. He's clearly failing to do at least one of the above.
This is in direct contradiction of the ruling cited earlier in the thread. Which, by making it to the sage advice compendium, has some official weight.
The Sage Advice ruling refered to is in relation to Multiclassing specifically, indicating if a spell was first gained via a different class it doesn't count.
Personally i think Multiclassing makes it more strict than what the feature says, Wild Magic Surge doesn't make any mention of needing to be spell you know or have gained from sorcerer level, only that it's sorcerer spell of level 1 or higher, which is determined by being on it's class spell list.
A single class or multiclass sorcerer who choose magic missile from the sorcerer spell list should obviously be able to trigger Wild Magic Surge anyway regardless if it's casted using a spell slot or magic item.
A wizard multiclasses into Wild Magic sorcerer. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from sorcerer to trigger? From the multiclassing rules: “Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes” (PH, 164). This rule means only the spells gained from levels in sorcerer trigger Wild Magic Surge.
I don't see why it would be determined. Why does it come from any list at all?
Because it is on that list, that is just a simple fact. It being a "sorcerer spell" is not the same as it being "your sorcerer spell" and yes, I realise that that makes the SAC ruling problematic.
I'd say that the reason for this is that the designers tries do do a few too many things at the same time. And thus sometimes they write "sorcerer spells" and sometimes they write "your sorcerer spells" without having a real clear idea, and certainly no explanation, of how/why/when those concepts differs.
This is in direct contradiction of the ruling cited earlier in the thread. Which, by making it to the sage advice compendium, has some official weight.
My guess is that in the mind of Jeremy Crawfor they aren't contradictory because they concern different situations. But yea, here it is problematic.
The Sage Advice ruling refered to is in relation to Multiclassing specifically, indicating if a spell was first gained via a different class it doesn't count.
But if it's coming from an item, that casts the exact same spell no matter who uses it, it does count?
Edit: To be honest, it's not how I'd've ruled at all, but if you're going to official rulings, it's clearly the controlling one.
This is in direct contradiction of the ruling cited earlier in the thread. Which, by making it to the sage advice compendium, has some official weight.
My guess is that in the mind of Jeremy Crawfor they aren't contradictory because they concern different situations. But yea, here it is problematic.
Personally, I doubt he remembers the previous ruling at all. But I've been the official rules person in a game where the original guy ruled based on vibes, and I'm judging Crawford hard
Putting that multiclass ruling aside since the question is not about it, RAW, what count as a class spell, being on the spell list or being known and prepared? Many feature refer to class spell usually rely on the first , especially when it involve choosin. For exemple:
As an Arcane Trickster, you know three wizard spells of your choice, and later learn more wizard spells, it refers to class list.
Wizard say when you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook, obviously refer to class list.
A Wizard pellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice refer to class list. Same for wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied.
A Sorcerer say the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice also refer to class list.
Boon of Spell Mastery say choose one 1st-level sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell that you can cast. You can now cast that spell at its lowest level without expending a spell slot. Again refer to class list.
When Cleric say you prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list it clearly indicate a class spell is a spell on your class list.
So how RAW determine for Empowered Evocation what spell you can add your Intelligence modifier to damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast? It's gotta be a spell from the class list and school referred to.
Putting that multiclass ruling aside since the question is not about it, RAW, what count as a class spell, being on the spell list or being known and prepared? Many feature refer to class spell usually rely on the first, especially when it involve choosing For exemple:
As an Arcane Trickster, you know three wizard spells of your choice, and later learn more wizard spells, it refers to class list.
Wizard say when you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook, obviously refer to class list.
A Wizard pellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice refer to class list. Same for wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied.
A Sorcerer say the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice also refer to class list.
Boon of Spell Mastery say choose one 1st-level sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell that you can cast. You can now cast that spell at its lowest level without expending a spell slot. Again refer to class list.
When Cleric say you prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list it clearly indicate a class spell is a spell on your class list.
That ruling is 100% about the relevant question, which is "what counts as a class X spell for the purpose of class X abilities?" The answer: "spells prepared/learned/whatever in class X's preparation slots". The magic missile from the wand is not prepared in a wizard slot, so it's not a wizard spell.
Edit: this gives rise to the question "so, if I prepare magic missile in both wizard and sorcerer slots, do I get wild magic, enhanced evocation, both, or neither?" To which my answer is "this is why I wouldn't have ruled it that way in the first place". (OK, it would actually be because it requires silly bookkeeping, although you need to track that because of spell casting modifiers, which I guess answers the question of which one you get. Don't multi class wizard-sorcerer, folks, it only leads to headaches.)
That ruling is not relevant because it's about multiclassing specifically treating each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, not single class or magic item.
I've quoted enought rule excerp to indicate that class spell can refers to class list otherwise these features would be broken.
Oh wow, I don't think I understood the multiclassing rules correctly. Is it saying that if I already know a spell as a Wizard and then I multiclass into a Sorcerer -- if I want to cast that same spell as a Sorcerer I would have to "learn" that spell again, using up one of my known spells gained from acquiring a new Sorcerer level? If it really works that way then that is absolutely horrendous and should be changed.
Given that, if the SAC ruling about Wild Magic Surge is correct, then Quar1on makes a good point -- terms such as Wizard spell and Sorcerer spell refer to which list the spell is pulled from, not just whether or not the spell appears on that list. If you learn and prepare and cast a spell using a Wizard's Spellcasting class Feature then that spell comes from the Wizard Spell list (as required by that Spellcasting class Feature) and not the Sorcerer Spell list, even if that spell name appears on both lists -- and therefore, that spell which was cast was a Wizard spell and not a Sorcerer spell.
But the thing is -- each Spellcasting class Feature explicitly specifies which list to pull the spells from. But you can also cast spells in other ways which do not rely on the Spellcasting class Features and therefore are not bound by those rules. When a level 5 Tiefling Barbarian casts Darkness, which spell list is that pulled from? That is unspecified. When a non-spellcaster uses a Wand of Magic Missiles to cast Magic Missile, which spell list is that pulled from? Also unspecified.
Oh wow, I don't think I understood the multiclassing rules correctly. Is it saying that if I already know a spell as a Wizard and then I multiclass into a Sorcerer -- if I want to cast that same spell as a Sorcerer I would have to "learn" that spell again, using up one of my known spells gained from acquiring a new Sorcerer level?
I don't even know if it's possible to learn a spell twice. The Q&A makes a distinction of spell known and prepared by individual class but that is due to a spec from Multiclassing rules, not a general rule on class spell.
That ruling is not relevant because it's about multiclassing specifically treating each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, not single class or magic item.
If you can't generalize from a ruling to the larger context, that makes it very difficult to answer questions about the larger system.
I have, by following a train of thought in my edits above, sufficiently generalized the ruling to make sense of it. (And I was wrong in my instinctive "I would've ruled it differently".)
A spell cast is a class X spell if it's cast with class X's casting stat. All spells you have learned specifically from the class's preparation slots are cast with that stat. (If you have two classes with the same stat, you have to go entirely on the prep slot.)
Since magic item spells pretty much always have their own built-in casting modifiers or specify a stat to use, they're pretty much always not a class spell for purposes of your abilities. If it does tell you to use your casting stat, then it would count. (This is not "it tells you to use a stat that happens to be your casting stat".)
I've quoted enought rule excerp to indicate that class spell can refers to class list otherwise these features would be broken.
First of all, D&D does sometimes use two identical or very similar phases to mean two clearly mechanically distinct things, so this ain't that strong an argument.
Secondly, your "enough excerpts" is almost entirely the choosing spells to prepare rules, or modifying which spells you can prepare. The rules for what counts as an X spell for preparation and what counts as an X spell when casting do not have to align.
Anyway, I've said my piece, and I'm done. Crawford was right in the sage advice compendium, and wrong on the twitter ruling.
Oh wow, I don't think I understood the multiclassing rules correctly. Is it saying that if I already know a spell as a Wizard and then I multiclass into a Sorcerer -- if I want to cast that same spell as a Sorcerer I would have to "learn" that spell again, using up one of my known spells gained from acquiring a new Sorcerer level? If it really works that way then that is absolutely horrendous and should be changed.
What do you mean by "cast it as a sorcerer"? If you mean, "cast it with Charisma as your casting stat", then yeah. I don't think it's particularly horrendous, myself. It tracks with the way multiclassing Cleric/Wizard works. The spells you learn as a cleric are wisdom, the spells you learn as a wizard are int. They just don't overlap as much as the sorcerer and wizard lists do. (Why are you multi classing wizard/sorcerer, anyway? It makes no sense.)
A spell cast is a class X spell if it's cast with class X's casting stat. All spells you have learned specifically from the class's preparation slots are cast with that stat. (If you have two classes with the same stat, you have to go entirely on the prep slot.)
Since magic item spells pretty much always have their own built-in casting modifiers or specify a stat to use, they're pretty much always not a class spell for purposes of your abilities. If it does tell you to use your casting stat, then it would count. (This is not "it tells you to use a stat that happens to be your casting stat".)
No, this isn't how it works. The class of the spell is not dependent on the stat used, it's the other way around. The class of the spell determines which stat you use and which spellcasting focus is allowed. And this ONLY applies when using a Spellcasting class Feature to cast the spell since every one of those features explicitly specifies which class list to pull the spells from and which stat is used.
As for the multi-class rule being horrendous -- maybe it's not that bad really. But it does lead to this drawback where you've earned the experience for a character level up and now you are burning some of the benefits of that level up to learn a spell that you've already learned previously on a previous level up. Assuming that you want to be able to cast the spell both ways. If not, then there really is no inefficiency, it's just weird. Like, yup, I've learned that spell, but not really. It's just clunky at best. But yeah, it's sort of consistent with some of the other rules and maybe it's not as bad as I was thinking at first. Maybe it's just plain bad but not horrendous.
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I guess I got confused because you were saying things about higher level spells that weren't really relevant to the ruling.
Does a Wand of Magic Missiles access magic missile from the Wizard spell list?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Ok, I see. The ruling used the phrase "only the spells gained from levels in sorcerer trigger Wild Magic Surge". That's kind of odd phrasing and I thought it was talking about needing enough Sorcerer levels within a multi-classed character to be able to cast the spell, but that's really only one possible reason why you might be using the Wizard Spellcasting Feature instead of the Sorcerer Spellcasting Feature to cast the spell. To trigger the Wild Magic Surge, it must be a sorcerer spell so it must be prepared and cast using the Sorcerer class's spellcasting rules.
This is a good question, I'm not sure that this is specified anywhere. My assumption is that since we are not casting the spell by using a Spellcasting Feature (we don't even have to be a spellcaster to use this item) and instead have access to the spell through the item (and yet we are casting it), then perhaps we can choose which list the spell is taken from when we cast it? I'm not sure how this would be determined otherwise.
I don't see why it would be determined. Why does it come from any list at all?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
That's another possibility for sure. I can't think of any rules that would help to clarify that.
I'll just bring up a couple of things that are maybe related or maybe not:
The spell scroll magic item has this text: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell". Then, there is this: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied". If you were a multi-classed Wizard/Sorcerer and found a scroll of magic missile, how can we determine if this is a Wizard spell?
A 5th level Tiefling Barbarian can cast Darkness. How do we determine which list this comes from, or does it come from no list at all?
What makes you think it doesn't activate it? Wild Magic Surge, trigger immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, which magic missile is.
While not official ruling, when asked on Twitter the Dev said it does trigger even when using Wand of magic missiles ;
Sigh
This is why, if you're a source of rulings, you should not be shooting from the hip all the time. Or you need to have a consistent rules model in your head. He's clearly failing to do at least one of the above.
This is in direct contradiction of the ruling cited earlier in the thread. Which, by making it to the sage advice compendium, has some official weight.
Personally i think Multiclassing makes it more strict than what the feature says, Wild Magic Surge doesn't make any mention of needing to be spell you know or have gained from sorcerer level, only that it's sorcerer spell of level 1 or higher, which is determined by being on it's class spell list.
A single class or multiclass sorcerer who choose magic missile from the sorcerer spell list should obviously be able to trigger Wild Magic Surge anyway regardless if it's casted using a spell slot or magic item.
Because it is on that list, that is just a simple fact. It being a "sorcerer spell" is not the same as it being "your sorcerer spell" and yes, I realise that that makes the SAC ruling problematic.
I'd say that the reason for this is that the designers tries do do a few too many things at the same time. And thus sometimes they write "sorcerer spells" and sometimes they write "your sorcerer spells" without having a real clear idea, and certainly no explanation, of how/why/when those concepts differs.
My guess is that in the mind of Jeremy Crawfor they aren't contradictory because they concern different situations. But yea, here it is problematic.
But if it's coming from an item, that casts the exact same spell no matter who uses it, it does count?
Edit: To be honest, it's not how I'd've ruled at all, but if you're going to official rulings, it's clearly the controlling one.
Personally, I doubt he remembers the previous ruling at all. But I've been the official rules person in a game where the original guy ruled based on vibes, and I'm judging Crawford hard
Putting that multiclass ruling aside since the question is not about it, RAW, what count as a class spell, being on the spell list or being known and prepared? Many feature refer to class spell usually rely on the first , especially when it involve choosin. For exemple:
As an Arcane Trickster, you know three wizard spells of your choice, and later learn more wizard spells, it refers to class list.
Wizard say when you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook, obviously refer to class list.
A Wizard pellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice refer to class list. Same for wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied.
A Sorcerer say the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice also refer to class list.
Boon of Spell Mastery say choose one 1st-level sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell that you can cast. You can now cast that spell at its lowest level without expending a spell slot. Again refer to class list.
When Cleric say you prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list it clearly indicate a class spell is a spell on your class list.
So how RAW determine for Empowered Evocation what spell you can add your Intelligence modifier to damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast? It's gotta be a spell from the class list and school referred to.
That ruling is 100% about the relevant question, which is "what counts as a class X spell for the purpose of class X abilities?" The answer: "spells prepared/learned/whatever in class X's preparation slots". The magic missile from the wand is not prepared in a wizard slot, so it's not a wizard spell.
Edit: this gives rise to the question "so, if I prepare magic missile in both wizard and sorcerer slots, do I get wild magic, enhanced evocation, both, or neither?" To which my answer is "this is why I wouldn't have ruled it that way in the first place". (OK, it would actually be because it requires silly bookkeeping, although you need to track that because of spell casting modifiers, which I guess answers the question of which one you get. Don't multi class wizard-sorcerer, folks, it only leads to headaches.)
That ruling is not relevant because it's about multiclassing specifically treating each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, not single class or magic item.
I've quoted enought rule excerp to indicate that class spell can refers to class list otherwise these features would be broken.
Oh wow, I don't think I understood the multiclassing rules correctly. Is it saying that if I already know a spell as a Wizard and then I multiclass into a Sorcerer -- if I want to cast that same spell as a Sorcerer I would have to "learn" that spell again, using up one of my known spells gained from acquiring a new Sorcerer level? If it really works that way then that is absolutely horrendous and should be changed.
Given that, if the SAC ruling about Wild Magic Surge is correct, then Quar1on makes a good point -- terms such as Wizard spell and Sorcerer spell refer to which list the spell is pulled from, not just whether or not the spell appears on that list. If you learn and prepare and cast a spell using a Wizard's Spellcasting class Feature then that spell comes from the Wizard Spell list (as required by that Spellcasting class Feature) and not the Sorcerer Spell list, even if that spell name appears on both lists -- and therefore, that spell which was cast was a Wizard spell and not a Sorcerer spell.
But the thing is -- each Spellcasting class Feature explicitly specifies which list to pull the spells from. But you can also cast spells in other ways which do not rely on the Spellcasting class Features and therefore are not bound by those rules. When a level 5 Tiefling Barbarian casts Darkness, which spell list is that pulled from? That is unspecified. When a non-spellcaster uses a Wand of Magic Missiles to cast Magic Missile, which spell list is that pulled from? Also unspecified.
The Q&A could be summarized as follow:
Is Magic Missile you cast using a Wand of Magic Missile a sorcerer spell of 1s level or higher?
Yes it's because it's a 1st-level spell on the sorcerer spell list.
No it's not because it's not a spell the sorcerer know and use a spell slot to cast.
I don't even know if it's possible to learn a spell twice. The Q&A makes a distinction of spell known and prepared by individual class but that is due to a spec from Multiclassing rules, not a general rule on class spell.
If you can't generalize from a ruling to the larger context, that makes it very difficult to answer questions about the larger system.
I have, by following a train of thought in my edits above, sufficiently generalized the ruling to make sense of it. (And I was wrong in my instinctive "I would've ruled it differently".)
A spell cast is a class X spell if it's cast with class X's casting stat. All spells you have learned specifically from the class's preparation slots are cast with that stat. (If you have two classes with the same stat, you have to go entirely on the prep slot.)
Since magic item spells pretty much always have their own built-in casting modifiers or specify a stat to use, they're pretty much always not a class spell for purposes of your abilities. If it does tell you to use your casting stat, then it would count. (This is not "it tells you to use a stat that happens to be your casting stat".)
First of all, D&D does sometimes use two identical or very similar phases to mean two clearly mechanically distinct things, so this ain't that strong an argument.
Secondly, your "enough excerpts" is almost entirely the choosing spells to prepare rules, or modifying which spells you can prepare. The rules for what counts as an X spell for preparation and what counts as an X spell when casting do not have to align.
Anyway, I've said my piece, and I'm done. Crawford was right in the sage advice compendium, and wrong on the twitter ruling.
What do you mean by "cast it as a sorcerer"? If you mean, "cast it with Charisma as your casting stat", then yeah. I don't think it's particularly horrendous, myself. It tracks with the way multiclassing Cleric/Wizard works. The spells you learn as a cleric are wisdom, the spells you learn as a wizard are int. They just don't overlap as much as the sorcerer and wizard lists do. (Why are you multi classing wizard/sorcerer, anyway? It makes no sense.)
No, this isn't how it works. The class of the spell is not dependent on the stat used, it's the other way around. The class of the spell determines which stat you use and which spellcasting focus is allowed. And this ONLY applies when using a Spellcasting class Feature to cast the spell since every one of those features explicitly specifies which class list to pull the spells from and which stat is used.
As for the multi-class rule being horrendous -- maybe it's not that bad really. But it does lead to this drawback where you've earned the experience for a character level up and now you are burning some of the benefits of that level up to learn a spell that you've already learned previously on a previous level up. Assuming that you want to be able to cast the spell both ways. If not, then there really is no inefficiency, it's just weird. Like, yup, I've learned that spell, but not really. It's just clunky at best. But yeah, it's sort of consistent with some of the other rules and maybe it's not as bad as I was thinking at first. Maybe it's just plain bad but not horrendous.