Last session, we did not have the rules available, so the DM ruled it would take 1 hour for my lvl 5 cleric to change one spell (after taking a long rest). We went with it, no big deal, but today I'm looking at the rules to know for next time. Here's my class description for preparing spells:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Here's a breakdown of those 2 sentences:
The first part that says you can only change the list after a long rest is understood.
"Preparing a new list"... so in my mind, I'm just swapping 1 spell in my list, not preparing a new list, therefore changing a level 1 spell would take 1 minute. But,
"1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list" As I said above, my instinct is it takes 1 minute per level of spell changed. But the wording seems to imply that any change equals a new list.
So a level 1 cleric has 2 level 1 spells. Changing one, or both, will take the cleric 2 minutes of prayer/meditation. A level 2 cleric has 3 level 1 spells, so 3 minutes. A level 3 cleric has 4 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells. Therefore, even if he changes one level 1 spell, he would have to spend 4 minutes for all level 1's, and an extra 4 minutes for the 2 level 2's, for a total of 8 minutes.
In last night's example, my level 5 cleric has 4 level 1's, 3 level 2's, and 2 level 3's. He should have had to spend:
1x4 + 2x3 + 3x2 = 16 minutes.
Is that correct?
Doing that calculation, on the fly, is a pain in the rear. Why not just get rid of that sentence and make a table?
Just to get an idea of the maximum, a level 20 cleric would have to spend:
If this is not the intent, then the text should be changed to:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list being memorized.
this is something that's been debated several times for 5th edition, though there was a clarification in a tweet from Jeremy Crawford, which can probably be found via google (I couldn't find it just now though).
The ability to change prepared spells reads:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
All of this refers to the list of prepared spells - it doesn't provide separate rules for changing a single spell.
As such, even if you only want to change one or two of your prepared spells, you need to effectively take the time to prepare a full new list.
As you noted on the maximum number.
You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
So as the number of prepared spells is equal to wisdom modifier plus cleric level, the level 20 cleric (assuming a wisdom bonus of +5) would have 5+20 = 25 prepared spells.
Yes, this could take them a fair amount of time to change their prepared spells.
I have seen house rules that allow clerics to switch individual spells on the list though (I use that myself when DMing).
If you change any spell that was on your prepared spell list to something different, you are changing your list of prepared spells. There's no other way to see this.
at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list
Your math reflects this part, a 1st level cleric would take 2 minutes of prayer, a 9th level cleric would take an hour and a half.
when you finish a long rest.
This part is really tricky: according to the text on long rest:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
With that being said I take it to mean: the spell caster would use those hours of light activity to pray, write in a spell book, commune with nature, or what ever ritual it is they do to augment their spells for the day. As soon as those 2min - 1.5 hours are completed and the long rest is completed, the changes are completed as well.
If what you say is the intent, then they should not state "when you finish a long rest." Interpreted the way you claim, it should instead say, "after you have slept (trance for elves) for 6 hours as part of a long rest, or immediately after a long rest."
So as the number of prepared spells is equal to wisdom modifier plus cleric level, the level 20 cleric (assuming a wisdom bonus of +5) would have 5+20 = 25 prepared spells.
Yes, this could take them a fair amount of time to change their prepared spells.
Oops, yeah I counted the slots, not the spells. My mistake. Point is still valid though: Changing one simple level 1 spell would take a lvl 20 cleric nearly 2 hours...
Circling back to this thread to help any others that stumble onto it. I believe I found the tweet you were referencing.
In short, it actually looks like he would rule that the entire list is not being prepared again in full if a single spell is being changed. Only the spells being changed are being prepared and subject to the time rules laid out.
i'd say it depends on the group, i usually handwave it because the group i currently run does things for the sake of speed and ease, but if we had a more realistic focused group i wouldn't
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Maximum time would be 79 minutes, for a full 20th level caster spell book. I don’t feel like this would make much difference unless you’re role playing a prison escape where you haven’t had your spell book or prepared spells available and only have limited time to study/prepare after your long rest because the fuzz is hot on your trail. Which could be an interesting scenario!
Maximum time would be 79 minutes, for a full 20th level caster spell book. I don’t feel like this would make much difference unless you’re role playing a prison escape where you haven’t had your spell book or prepared spells available and only have limited time to study/prepare after your long rest because the fuzz is hot on your trail. Which could be an interesting scenario!
Why does it take so long?
I assume that the wording is referring to your "prepared list", not your entire list available for you to prepare.
So even if you had to spend the time for all the spells on your prepared list, it would only be the time for the (20 + INT mod) spells which you've chosen - and the cumulative time would depend on how many spells of each level you chose.
The process is the same for all prepared casters. We've always played changing the list as something that happens as a part of the long rest, not afterwards. Might technically be wrong but it just unnecessarily slows the game down otherwise.
If the maximum time it can take tops out at 79 minutes, then there's no reason it couldn't happen as part of the long rest, and you could be done by the time the long rest ends.
I just don't think this is something worth troubling over at the gameplay table.
Maximum time would be 79 minutes, for a full 20th level caster spell book. I don’t feel like this would make much difference unless you’re role playing a prison escape where you haven’t had your spell book or prepared spells available and only have limited time to study/prepare after your long rest because the fuzz is hot on your trail. Which could be an interesting scenario!
Why does it take so long?
I assume that the wording is referring to your "prepared list", not your entire list available for you to prepare.
So even if you had to spend the time for all the spells on your prepared list, it would only be the time for the (20 + INT mod) spells which you've chosen - and the cumulative time would depend on how many spells of each level you chose.
That’s a good point - I was configuring it for one spell per spell slot, but that wouldn’t be the same as the number of spells. If you had more high level spells, this could be a higher number potentially. If you had three spells per level except only two spells per level for 8 and 9 (25 total spells), the total time could be 18+16+21+18+15+12+9+6+3 = 118 minutes. And again, really only likely if the spellcaster is learning from scratch again.
I am assuming most casters wouldn’t be doing whole new spell lists each morning.
If the maximum time it can take tops out at 79 minutes, then there's no reason it couldn't happen as part of the long rest, and you could be done by the time the long rest ends.
I just don't think this is something worth troubling over at the gameplay table.
It happens after the long rest and can top out higher. But if you think typically a spell caster is switching out maybe 1 or 2 spells at most, I’d assume this would take about the same time as a ritual cast (11 minutes).
I think the only scenario where this would likely to make a difference is in the case where the PC is without their patron or spellbook for quite some time and has to prepare from scratch once more (and time is of the essence). A very specific scenario.
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
It makes it too confusing to interpret this as a total of ALL the spells. The definition of ALL is to vague. All of the spells on the list of known spells? Or, all of the spells on the list of prepared spells including ones you ALWAYS have prepared? Or, all of spells on the list of prepared spells minus the ones you ALWAYS have prepared? Then there is the matter of doing the math [(1min X number of 1st level spells) + (2min X number of 2nd level spells) + (3min X number of 3rd level spells) + ...] which in my opinion is way to complicated to keep the game running smooth because players will almost never change their list of prepared spells completely.
Thus, I think it makes much more sense to use 1 minute for each level of spell you want to add to the list with unpreparing being instant and/or considered part of the preparation of the new spell. So, you want to swap out a 3rd level spell to add a 1st level spell? One minute. Want to swap out a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell to add two 3rd level spells? Six minutes.
If you wanted to be a hard arse about it, the only definition of ALL I would use is total spells on the new complete list of prepared spells minus the ones you ALWAYS have prepared like Oath, Domain, Circle etc spells. Cuz why would you need to reprepare spells that you ALWAYS have prepared by definition.
Last session, we did not have the rules available, so the DM ruled it would take 1 hour for my lvl 5 cleric to change one spell (after taking a long rest). We went with it, no big deal, but today I'm looking at the rules to know for next time. Here's my class description for preparing spells:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Here's a breakdown of those 2 sentences:
So a level 1 cleric has 2 level 1 spells. Changing one, or both, will take the cleric 2 minutes of prayer/meditation. A level 2 cleric has 3 level 1 spells, so 3 minutes. A level 3 cleric has 4 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells. Therefore, even if he changes one level 1 spell, he would have to spend 4 minutes for all level 1's, and an extra 4 minutes for the 2 level 2's, for a total of 8 minutes.
In last night's example, my level 5 cleric has 4 level 1's, 3 level 2's, and 2 level 3's. He should have had to spend:
1x4 + 2x3 + 3x2 = 16 minutes.
Is that correct?
Doing that calculation, on the fly, is a pain in the rear. Why not just get rid of that sentence and make a table?
Just to get an idea of the maximum, a level 20 cleric would have to spend:
1x4 + 3x2 + 3x3 + 3x4 + 3x5 + 2x6 + 2x7 + 1x8 + 1x9 = 89 minutes, or nearly 1.5 hours praying/meditating to change 1 level 1 spell.
If this is not the intent, then the text should be changed to:
You can change your
list ofprepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a newlist ofcleric spellsrequires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spellon your listbeing memorized.-
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D&D Beyond FoundersHi there,
this is something that's been debated several times for 5th edition, though there was a clarification in a tweet from Jeremy Crawford, which can probably be found via google (I couldn't find it just now though).
The ability to change prepared spells reads:
All of this refers to the list of prepared spells - it doesn't provide separate rules for changing a single spell.
As such, even if you only want to change one or two of your prepared spells, you need to effectively take the time to prepare a full new list.
As you noted on the maximum number.
So as the number of prepared spells is equal to wisdom modifier plus cleric level, the level 20 cleric (assuming a wisdom bonus of +5) would have 5+20 = 25 prepared spells.
Yes, this could take them a fair amount of time to change their prepared spells.
I have seen house rules that allow clerics to switch individual spells on the list though (I use that myself when DMing).
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You can change your list of prepared spells
If you change any spell that was on your prepared spell list to something different, you are changing your list of prepared spells. There's no other way to see this.
at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list
Your math reflects this part, a 1st level cleric would take 2 minutes of prayer, a 9th level cleric would take an hour and a half.
when you finish a long rest.
This part is really tricky: according to the text on long rest:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
With that being said I take it to mean: the spell caster would use those hours of light activity to pray, write in a spell book, commune with nature, or what ever ritual it is they do to augment their spells for the day. As soon as those 2min - 1.5 hours are completed and the long rest is completed, the changes are completed as well.
If what you say is the intent, then they should not state "when you finish a long rest." Interpreted the way you claim, it should instead say, "after you have slept (trance for elves) for 6 hours as part of a long rest, or immediately after a long rest."
Oops, yeah I counted the slots, not the spells. My mistake. Point is still valid though: Changing one simple level 1 spell would take a lvl 20 cleric nearly 2 hours...
Circling back to this thread to help any others that stumble onto it. I believe I found the tweet you were referencing.
In short, it actually looks like he would rule that the entire list is not being prepared again in full if a single spell is being changed. Only the spells being changed are being prepared and subject to the time rules laid out.
Changing spells prepared should be handwaved imo.
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Does it really matter?
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Why should it be handwaved?
i'd say it depends on the group, i usually handwave it because the group i currently run does things for the sake of speed and ease, but if we had a more realistic focused group i wouldn't
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
Maximum time would be 79 minutes, for a full 20th level caster spell book. I don’t feel like this would make much difference unless you’re role playing a prison escape where you haven’t had your spell book or prepared spells available and only have limited time to study/prepare after your long rest because the fuzz is hot on your trail. Which could be an interesting scenario!
Why does it take so long?
I assume that the wording is referring to your "prepared list", not your entire list available for you to prepare.
So even if you had to spend the time for all the spells on your prepared list, it would only be the time for the (20 + INT mod) spells which you've chosen - and the cumulative time would depend on how many spells of each level you chose.
The process is the same for all prepared casters. We've always played changing the list as something that happens as a part of the long rest, not afterwards. Might technically be wrong but it just unnecessarily slows the game down otherwise.
If the maximum time it can take tops out at 79 minutes, then there's no reason it couldn't happen as part of the long rest, and you could be done by the time the long rest ends.
I just don't think this is something worth troubling over at the gameplay table.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That’s a good point - I was configuring it for one spell per spell slot, but that wouldn’t be the same as the number of spells. If you had more high level spells, this could be a higher number potentially. If you had three spells per level except only two spells per level for 8 and 9 (25 total spells), the total time could be 18+16+21+18+15+12+9+6+3 = 118 minutes.
And again, really only likely if the spellcaster is learning from scratch again.
I am assuming most casters wouldn’t be doing whole new spell lists each morning.
It happens after the long rest and can top out higher. But if you think typically a spell caster is switching out maybe 1 or 2 spells at most, I’d assume this would take about the same time as a ritual cast (11 minutes).
I think the only scenario where this would likely to make a difference is in the case where the PC is without their patron or spellbook for quite some time and has to prepare from scratch once more (and time is of the essence). A very specific scenario.
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
It makes it too confusing to interpret this as a total of ALL the spells. The definition of ALL is to vague. All of the spells on the list of known spells? Or, all of the spells on the list of prepared spells including ones you ALWAYS have prepared? Or, all of spells on the list of prepared spells minus the ones you ALWAYS have prepared? Then there is the matter of doing the math [(1min X number of 1st level spells) + (2min X number of 2nd level spells) + (3min X number of 3rd level spells) + ...] which in my opinion is way to complicated to keep the game running smooth because players will almost never change their list of prepared spells completely.
Thus, I think it makes much more sense to use 1 minute for each level of spell you want to add to the list with unpreparing being instant and/or considered part of the preparation of the new spell. So, you want to swap out a 3rd level spell to add a 1st level spell? One minute. Want to swap out a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell to add two 3rd level spells? Six minutes.
If you wanted to be a hard arse about it, the only definition of ALL I would use is total spells on the new complete list of prepared spells minus the ones you ALWAYS have prepared like Oath, Domain, Circle etc spells. Cuz why would you need to reprepare spells that you ALWAYS have prepared by definition.