I guess I'm still not seeing what difference taking the Hide action makes.
Case Situation: Your character is moving through a terrain space containing a large bush that makes it "heavily obscured" by foliage.
Hiding : Your character moves carefully and quietly avoiding disturbing the bushes branches so you aren't clearly noticable.
Not Hiding : You character shoves and pushes their way through causing the bush to sway back and forth like crazy and making lots of snapping noises as you break branches, trample on leaves, and tear your clothing forcing your way through.
Case Situation: Your character moves behind a wardrobe to get cover from the enemy.
Hiding: Your character flattens themselves against the wall to keep as out of sight as possible, and holds their breath hoping the enemy didn't see where they went.
Not Hiding: You character stays in combat stance with their weapons at the ready, and head poking out to keep eyes on the situation.
Case Situation: Your character jumps into a barrel and closes the lid.
Hiding: Your character stays perfectly still and silent to ensure the barrel just looks like an ordinary barrel.
Not Hiding: Your character moves around inside the barrel scraping the sides of it with your equipment, and making the barrel rock back and forth slightly.
I guess I'm still not seeing what difference taking the Hide action makes. Either way, they can't see me, and have a pretty good idea of where I am. Or are you saying if I go behind a column and don't Hide that the enemy gains X-Ray vision and can see me?
If we assume hiding works like 2014 (where it did make you unheard, and thus location unclear), it doesn't do a lot of good behind a pillar (unless you have spider climb or something), but if you hide behind something larger, you can move after taking the hide action, and they know where you were when you hid, but not where you moved after hiding.
They should have created a "hidden" condition separated from the invisible condition, that is how this could work, me and my table came up with this, sharing just to share:
Hide With the 'Hide action', you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC Dexterity (Stealth) check, where the DC equals the passive perception of the non-allied creatures, while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight or have a place to hide without them noticing you; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether they may can see you, but you can choose a hidden spot where they may not notie you even if you can see them. In Combat, you need to get 100% out of their line of sight and then you can attempt to Hide and need to move again to successfully hide from them, staying out of enemiy line of sight or well hidden behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover On a successful check, you have the Hiddencondition. Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check, this time as an active roll, with a minimum perception equal to its passive perception since is actively looking to it with the Search Action and because the stealth check already beat its passive perception The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Hidden Condition (invisible on the phb2024) While you have the Hidden condition, you experience the following effects. - Surprise. If you're Hidden when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. - Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you. You can be hidden from some creatures while not being hidden from others. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed. - Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage if that creature finds you on the same turn that is attacking you, and your attack rolls have Advantage against any creature from which you are still hidden. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against that creature. If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses unless you have the Skulker feat. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon.
Invisible Condition While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects. - Transparent. If you're Invisible is impossible to see you without the aid of magic or a special sense, even if you are in front of another's creature line of sight. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. - Almost Concealed. You can be detected but you have Advantage on Hidding checks. Also, you aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you by magical means or by some special senses. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also invisible from the moment you became invisble, any other objects you take after that remain visible, this includes hiding objects on your clothes or bags or even on your body, because you are fully invisible, unless you somehow can manage to make them invisible. You can attempt to hide anywhere while you remain invisible, but if you revealed your position by any means, you will need to move or find another place to hideaway from the possible view of tracks and sound that you can make near hostile creatures, otherwise, you can still attempt to hide near those creatures, but you no longer have advantage to do so until you are hidden again successfully - Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against that creature. If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses (unless you have the Skulker feat) and may or not end your invisible condition, but regardless, you make noises and enemies can detect you so you aren't hidding anymore if you were before and creatures can guess your position to try and attack you. A creature guessing your position by sound or tracks or you revealing it by attacking can attempt to attack your location at disadvantage, same for targeting a creature that can hear but no see with an effect that doesn't require it to see the target. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon. An attack that guessed wrong misses directly but the DM wouldnt say if the miss is because the guess was wrong, just that it missed. If you moved after revealing your position, creatures can follow your noises and guess your position again unless you hide again successfully while moving. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon as long as you remian invisible.
If I’m hidden and a creature with Blindsight or Truesight sees me, am I still hidden?
No. Being hidden is a game state that gives you the Invisible condition. If a creature finds you, you’re no longer hidden and lose that condition, as explained in the Hide action (see appendix C of the Player’s Handbook).
This tells us that it is possible to 'find' a creature without making an ability check -- successfully seeing them does count as finding them.
The Halfling’s Naturally Stealthy trait allows you to bypass these criteria if you’re obscured by a creature at least one size larger than you. However, you still must make a Dexterity (Stealth) check as you normally would when taking the Hide action, so there’s no guarantee of success.
I don't think this tells us something we didn't already know
The perception check is made with disadvantage if the hidden creature is in dim light and the perception check is based on sight.
This rule doesn't apply to finding creatures unless the one who is performing the Perception check is Deafened or something similar and it is actually possible to see the creature or to see evidence of the creature's location such as when that creature is "just" behind three-quarters cover. In 2024, a Perception check is described as using "a combination of senses", so under normal circumstances a Perception check to find a creature is not only going to be "based on sight".
Says who? I'm not quoting the whole post but this question applies to the rest: You know you're supposed to actually read the rules before claiming to know what happens, right? Pretty much nothing of what you said in that post matches the rules.
At this time, you will now cease to insinuate that I have not read the rules for the game. You have no knowledge whatsoever of what I have or have not read.
Not only does everything that I said in that post match the rules, but I habitually quote the rules directly word-for-word as I discuss them so that there can be no doubt.
As already explained, when a creature searches for another creature, he makes a Perception check, which is described as using "a combination of senses". This check does not "rely on sight", it uses a combination of senses. If instead you were looking for an object which does not make noise, then that Perception check would rely on sight. But by default, a creature makes noise and can be seen so such creatures can be found by using "a combination of senses".
The burden is on you to actually explain why these statements do not align with the rules instead of just making such a blanket statement with nothing to back it up.
What am I doing behind the column that makes the enemy forget that I went there? Is 5.5e Hide actually a spell slot free, watered down Modify Memory?
Hiding has nothing to do with making anyone forget that you went somewhere. It just means that you cannot currently see or hear them, so you do not actually know for sure where they are. If I just walked behind a column an instant ago and you cannot currently see me or hear me then you do not actually know that I am there. What if there is a hole behind that column that I fell through? What if I subtly cast some sort of teleportation spell? Remembering that I went there recently is not giving you current information about my location as you might have if you could actually currently detect me with one of your senses. It only gives you some sort of basis to possibly "guess the square" correctly.
You just said yourself it is broken when you are in line of sight, which you need to be in order to attack, losing your advantage.
Interestingly, the recent Sage Advice update is making a claim that the phrase "Line of Sight" actually has no mechanical meaning in the game. If true, this would actually fix the clause within the Hide action which relates to three-quarters cover:
The Frightened condition says “while the source of its fear is within line of sight.” Does that mean you have Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks even if the source is imperceptible but you have a clear line to its space?
No. If you can’t see something, it’s not within your line of sight. Speaking of “line of sight,” the game uses the English meaning of the term, which has no special meaning in the rules.
This, of course, is absolute nonsense. We know that the term "Line of Sight" is a precisely defined game concept within the DMG and that text has already been quoted in this thread a few times already.
However, the point was that if we can make the assumption that the "Line of Sight" phrase will eventually be fixed or if we simply house-rule that one phrase to align with what they obviously intended to say within that phrase, then the Hide action works as I've described, and it has the benefits to the person located behind the column that I've explained.
When we don't have any definition of "stop hiding", and the rule itself never even says you can "stop hiding"
We really shouldn't need any rule to tell us that if we stop doing something then we are no longer doing that thing. Such common sense about the world applies globally throughout the game. It's just one of many thousands of assumptions that must be made in order to play the game.
But that is not what the rule or anyone's interpretation of the rule is. Everyone here is saying that your Stealth roll is the check to find you. So they either have to have a passive above it or take the Search action to try to beat it. So bumping into someone doesn't make you found.
The Search mechanic only applies "while hidden". Hiding is an ongoing activity -- the value of your Stealth roll is saved until later. But if you stop hiding, this value of your Stealth roll no longer applies to anything. In that case, the Search action is no longer necessary to find you because there is no longer any Stealth value to try to beat. You can be found with no action and no roll required.
I guess I'm still not seeing what difference taking the Hide action makes.
Case Situation: Your character is moving through a terrain space containing a large bush that makes it "heavily obscured" by foliage.
Hiding : Your character moves carefully and quietly avoiding disturbing the bushes branches so you aren't clearly noticable.
Not Hiding : You character shoves and pushes their way through causing the bush to sway back and forth like crazy and making lots of snapping noises as you break branches, trample on leaves, and tear your clothing forcing your way through.
Let's assume that your heavily obscured area does not actually provide any cover since you ask about cover in one of your other case situations. Perhaps for clarity we might change the scenario to "moving through an area of total darkness" (and your enemy does not have darkvision), so we're just talking about hiding in or sneaking through a heavily obscured space.
In such a case, if you are not hiding then your enemy knows where you are. He can attack you at disadvantage. You have advantage when you attack that enemy.
If you are hiding, then your enemy does not know where you are. Your enemy must first "guess the square" when attacking you, and when wrong it's an auto-miss. When correct, he still rolls his attack at disadvantage. You have advantage when you attack that enemy. In addition, you have advantage on your initiative roll.
Case Situation: Your character moves behind a wardrobe to get cover from the enemy.
Hiding: Your character flattens themselves against the wall to keep as out of sight as possible, and holds their breath hoping the enemy didn't see where they went.
Not Hiding: You character stays in combat stance with their weapons at the ready, and head poking out to keep eyes on the situation.
In this situation, you are behind total cover.
In such a case, if you are not hiding then your enemy knows where you are. But he cannot target you due to total cover. When you pop-out to attack your enemy from this position, you attack normally, not with advantage.
If you are hiding, then your enemy does not know where you are. But he cannot target you anyway due to total cover (but since he doesn't know where you are, a DM might decide that this NPC is much less likely to deliberately make an effort to move to a position where you no longer have total cover in order to attack you -- if the NPC is the one that is hiding, this might mean the difference between the DM leaving the mini on the map or removing it from the map). When you pop-out to three-quarters cover but you are not within your enemy's line-of-sight (assuming that's a thing -- probably intended to be adjudicated case-by-case by the DM), you attack with advantage. In addition, you have advantage on your initiative roll.
Case Situation: Your character jumps into a barrel and closes the lid.
Hiding: Your character stays perfectly still and silent to ensure the barrel just looks like an ordinary barrel.
Not Hiding: Your character moves around inside the barrel scraping the sides of it with your equipment, and making the barrel rock back and forth slightly.
This works pretty much the same as the second case situation.
If I’m hidden and a creature with Blindsight or Truesight sees me, am I still hidden?
No. Being hidden is a game state that gives you the Invisible condition. If a creature finds you, you’re no longer hidden and lose that condition, as explained in the Hide action (see appendix C of the Player’s Handbook).
This tells us that it is possible to 'find' a creature without making an ability check -- successfully seeing them does count as finding them.
It doesn't, though. The question answered is a loaded one. Unfortunately. If any creature sees you while hidden, then you're not hidden. But the real question is "do they see you"... because it is the successful perception check that allows them to see you.
Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
"Find you" is well enough defined in the Hide rules themself.
So we have a situation where the question asked doesn't actually clear anything up. What should have been asked was:
If I’m hidden does a creature with Blindsight or Truesight automatically see me, without making a perception check?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't, though. The question answered is a loaded one. Unfortunately. If any creature sees you while hidden, then you're not hidden. But the real question is "do they see you"... because it is the successful perception check that allows them to see you.
Creatures that see invisible see through the invisibility granted by the hidden condition, and therefore see you without requiring a check.
It doesn't, though. The question answered is a loaded one. Unfortunately. If any creature sees you while hidden, then you're not hidden. But the real question is "do they see you"... because it is the successful perception check that allows them to see you.
Creatures that see invisible see through the invisibility granted by the hidden condition, and therefore see you without requiring a check.
That is, not strictly true. If the only thing preventing them from seeing you was the invisibility alone, they would automatically see them. But, in the case of a hidden creature, the invisibility isn't the cause of being hidden, but is the result of being hidden.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That is, not strictly true. If the only thing preventing them from seeing you was the invisibility alone, they would automatically see them. But, in the case of a hidden creature, the invisibility isn't the cause of being hidden, but is the result of being hidden.
And the mechanical effect of being hidden is that you gain the invisible condition.
That is, not strictly true. If the only thing preventing them from seeing you was the invisibility alone, they would automatically see them. But, in the case of a hidden creature, the invisibility isn't the cause of being hidden, but is the result of being hidden.
And the mechanical effect of being hidden is that you gain the invisible condition.
Are you arguing being hidden doesn't conceal your location? That's a hot take.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
Nothing is happening to their memory. You are being sufficiently evasive, sneaky, and deceptive that they lose track of you. "Crap! I lost em! Where'd they go?"
It's not uncommon for a DM to rule that a "single column surrounded by wide space" isn't suitable for hiding. Or, I dunno, you just have disadvantage because they want you to still have a chance to feel cool about being stealthy...RaF, yo.
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
You are clearly nailing why that claim is bunk. It would make Hide in combat pointless --- or at least make attacking while hidden pointless --- yet the rules have several places (already shown) entirely based on attacking from hidden. Ergo, that interpretation is not compelling.
"Hide" is an Action; being "hidden" is a condition --- specifically, a shallow wrapper around the Invisible Condition, that requires being unseen and unheard. "Being found" means someone saw or heard you (more or less), despite your best efforts.
A Search Action is the clearest mechanic for finding a hidden person. Passive Perception (always, effectively, only determined by the DM) is another --- especially good for determining if you hear them and take notice. The rest is up to DM fiat rulings, because that's how D&D is designed. Per the new SAC:
"The DM is key. Many unexpected things can happen in a D&D campaign, and no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unwieldy. An alternative would be for the rules to severely limit what characters can do, which would be counter to the open-endedness of D&D. The direction we took for fifth edition was to lay a foundation of rules that a DM could build on, and we celebrate the DM as the bridge between the things the rules address and the things they don’t."
In my opinion, the best way to ruin a rogue's stealth day is using an enemy with Tremorsense. The current Rogue/Thief that I play has a deep seated fear of Bulettes, entirely from a single encounter (in 2016 or so). Magic sonar really is the best way to make Hide pretty useless. (Truesight and Blindsight not so much, because they don't give you 360-degree awareness or whatever, though they do negate darkness and illusions as things to Hide behind...)
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
Nothing is happening to their memory. You are being sufficiently evasive, sneaky, and deceptive that they lose track of you. "Crap! I lost em! Where'd they go?"
It's not uncommon for a DM to rule that a "single column surrounded by wide space" isn't suitable for hiding. Or, I dunno, you just have disadvantage because they want you to still have a chance to feel cool about being stealthy...RaF, yo.
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
You are clearly nailing why that claim is bunk. It would make Hide in combat pointless --- or at least make attacking while hidden pointless --- yet the rules have several places (already shown) entirely based on attacking from hidden. Ergo, that interpretation is not compelling.
"Hide" is an Action; being "hidden" is a condition --- specifically, a shallow wrapper around the Invisible Condition, that requires being unseen and unheard. "Being found" means someone saw or heard you (more or less), despite your best efforts.
A Search Action is the clearest mechanic for finding a hidden person. Passive Perception (always, effectively, only determined by the DM) is another --- especially good for determining if you hear them and take notice. The rest is up to DM fiat rulings, because that's how D&D is designed. Per the new SAC:
"The DM is key. Many unexpected things can happen in a D&D campaign, and no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unwieldy. An alternative would be for the rules to severely limit what characters can do, which would be counter to the open-endedness of D&D. The direction we took for fifth edition was to lay a foundation of rules that a DM could build on, and we celebrate the DM as the bridge between the things the rules address and the things they don’t."
In my opinion, the best way to ruin a rogue's stealth day is using an enemy with Tremorsense. The current Rogue/Thief that I play has a deep seated fear of Bulettes, entirely from a single encounter (in 2016 or so). Magic sonar really is the best way to make Hide pretty useless. (Truesight and Blindsight not so much, because they don't give you 360-degree awareness or whatever, though they do negate darkness and illusions as things to Hide behind...)
Then by your interpretation, a Rogue with Expertise in Stealth could remain hidden forever (with Reliable Talent, that Rogue is never rolling any less than a 18 starting at level 9 without even considering Dex or any other bonuses). If you can walk into plain sight after you Hide without breaking it, you can just Hide once and then be Invisible until you attack/cast. If "Find you" is only done by a Perception check, then you can just spam it until you Nat 20 and then never be found again.
You could also duck behind a wall, Hide to turn Invisible, and then sprint across the battlefield to stab someone in the face with advantage. Because nothing breaks your Invisible until you attack.
5.5e Hide is either useless or broken. The most liked reply here has completely rewritten both Hide and Invisible to fix the cluster that is 5.5e Stealth.
You are clearly nailing why that claim is bunk. It would make Hide in combat pointless --- or at least make attacking while hidden pointless --- yet the rules have several places (already shown) entirely based on attacking from hidden. Ergo, that interpretation is not compelling.
The only problem with attacking while hiding is the rule that you can't hide when any creature has line of sight on you, which also breaks other bits of hiding (in particular, it means you can't actually hide behind 3/4 cover). Delete that, and the way you attack out of hiding is that you pop out slightly (enough to still have 3/4 cover) and make your (probably ranged) attack.
Then by your interpretation, a Rogue with Expertise in Stealth could remain hidden forever (with Reliable Talent, that Rogue is never rolling any less than a 18 starting at level 9 without even considering Dex or any other bonuses). If you can walk into plain sight after you Hide without breaking it, you can just Hide once and then be Invisible until you attack/cast. If "Find you" is only done by a Perception check, then you can just spam it until you Nat 20 and then never be found again.
Sure, if you ignore half of what I posted, replace your DM with a lampshade, and use a reductio ad absurdum argument... I didn't say a damn thing about "plain sight." I'm talking about sneaking on a battlefield.
You could also duck behind a wall, Hide to turn Invisible, and then sprint across the battlefield to stab someone in the face with advantage. Because nothing breaks your Invisible until you attack.
Oh no! Not Sneak Attack at 30 feet! The Rogue might do halfway-decent damage!
The Assassin can do that without a Stealth check at level 9 (Steady Aim doesn't reduce their speed at that point).
What's next? A Fighter can just walk up to someone at hit them 3 times? Perish the thought, this is so broken.
</sarcasm>
5.5e Hide is either useless or broken. The most liked reply here has completely rewritten both Hide and Invisible to fix the cluster that is 5.5e Stealth.
You are clearly nailing why that claim is bunk. It would make Hide in combat pointless --- or at least make attacking while hidden pointless --- yet the rules have several places (already shown) entirely based on attacking from hidden. Ergo, that interpretation is not compelling.
The only problem with attacking while hiding is the rule that you can't hide when any creature has line of sight on you, which also breaks other bits of hiding (in particular, it means you can't actually hide behind 3/4 cover). Delete that, and the way you attack out of hiding is that you pop out slightly (enough to still have 3/4 cover) and make your (probably ranged) attack.
What the rule actually says about line of sight: "...and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you." In other words, it is implicitly possible to be able to see an enemy without them seeing you. You are using a definition of "line of sight" that is unsupported in the rules.
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Case Situation: Your character is moving through a terrain space containing a large bush that makes it "heavily obscured" by foliage.
Hiding : Your character moves carefully and quietly avoiding disturbing the bushes branches so you aren't clearly noticable.
Not Hiding : You character shoves and pushes their way through causing the bush to sway back and forth like crazy and making lots of snapping noises as you break branches, trample on leaves, and tear your clothing forcing your way through.
Case Situation: Your character moves behind a wardrobe to get cover from the enemy.
Hiding: Your character flattens themselves against the wall to keep as out of sight as possible, and holds their breath hoping the enemy didn't see where they went.
Not Hiding: You character stays in combat stance with their weapons at the ready, and head poking out to keep eyes on the situation.
Case Situation: Your character jumps into a barrel and closes the lid.
Hiding: Your character stays perfectly still and silent to ensure the barrel just looks like an ordinary barrel.
Not Hiding: Your character moves around inside the barrel scraping the sides of it with your equipment, and making the barrel rock back and forth slightly.
If we assume hiding works like 2014 (where it did make you unheard, and thus location unclear), it doesn't do a lot of good behind a pillar (unless you have spider climb or something), but if you hide behind something larger, you can move after taking the hide action, and they know where you were when you hid, but not where you moved after hiding.
They should have created a "hidden" condition separated from the invisible condition, that is how this could work, me and my table came up with this, sharing just to share:
Hide
With the 'Hide action', you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC Dexterity (Stealth) check, where the DC equals the passive perception of the non-allied creatures, while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight or have a place to hide without them noticing you; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether they may can see you, but you can choose a hidden spot where they may not notie you even if you can see them. In Combat, you need to get 100% out of their line of sight and then you can attempt to Hide and need to move again to successfully hide from them, staying out of enemiy line of sight or well hidden behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover
On a successful check, you have the Hidden condition. Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check, this time as an active roll, with a minimum perception equal to its passive perception since is actively looking to it with the Search Action and because the stealth check already beat its passive perception
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Hidden Condition (invisible on the phb2024)
While you have the Hidden condition, you experience the following effects.
- Surprise. If you're Hidden when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
- Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you. You can be hidden from some creatures while not being hidden from others. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
- Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage if that creature finds you on the same turn that is attacking you, and your attack rolls have Advantage against any creature from which you are still hidden. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against that creature. If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses unless you have the Skulker feat. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon.
Invisible Condition
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
- Transparent. If you're Invisible is impossible to see you without the aid of magic or a special sense, even if you are in front of another's creature line of sight. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
- Almost Concealed. You can be detected but you have Advantage on Hidding checks. Also, you aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you by magical means or by some special senses. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also invisible from the moment you became invisble, any other objects you take after that remain visible, this includes hiding objects on your clothes or bags or even on your body, because you are fully invisible, unless you somehow can manage to make them invisible. You can attempt to hide anywhere while you remain invisible, but if you revealed your position by any means, you will need to move or find another place to hideaway from the possible view of tracks and sound that you can make near hostile creatures, otherwise, you can still attempt to hide near those creatures, but you no longer have advantage to do so until you are hidden again successfully
- Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against that creature. If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses (unless you have the Skulker feat) and may or not end your invisible condition, but regardless, you make noises and enemies can detect you so you aren't hidding anymore if you were before and creatures can guess your position to try and attack you. A creature guessing your position by sound or tracks or you revealing it by attacking can attempt to attack your location at disadvantage, same for targeting a creature that can hear but no see with an effect that doesn't require it to see the target. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon. An attack that guessed wrong misses directly but the DM wouldnt say if the miss is because the guess was wrong, just that it missed. If you moved after revealing your position, creatures can follow your noises and guess your position again unless you hide again successfully while moving. If your attack that reveals you was a ranged attack, you only reveal your position to the creatures that are under your normal range of your weapon as long as you remian invisible.
So, SAC is out and does have two rulings related to hide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#SAC-Adventuring1
This tells us that it is possible to 'find' a creature without making an ability check -- successfully seeing them does count as finding them.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#SAC-Halfling1
I don't think this tells us something we didn't already know
At this time, you will now cease to insinuate that I have not read the rules for the game. You have no knowledge whatsoever of what I have or have not read.
Not only does everything that I said in that post match the rules, but I habitually quote the rules directly word-for-word as I discuss them so that there can be no doubt.
As already explained, when a creature searches for another creature, he makes a Perception check, which is described as using "a combination of senses". This check does not "rely on sight", it uses a combination of senses. If instead you were looking for an object which does not make noise, then that Perception check would rely on sight. But by default, a creature makes noise and can be seen so such creatures can be found by using "a combination of senses".
The burden is on you to actually explain why these statements do not align with the rules instead of just making such a blanket statement with nothing to back it up.
Hiding has nothing to do with making anyone forget that you went somewhere. It just means that you cannot currently see or hear them, so you do not actually know for sure where they are. If I just walked behind a column an instant ago and you cannot currently see me or hear me then you do not actually know that I am there. What if there is a hole behind that column that I fell through? What if I subtly cast some sort of teleportation spell? Remembering that I went there recently is not giving you current information about my location as you might have if you could actually currently detect me with one of your senses. It only gives you some sort of basis to possibly "guess the square" correctly.
Interestingly, the recent Sage Advice update is making a claim that the phrase "Line of Sight" actually has no mechanical meaning in the game. If true, this would actually fix the clause within the Hide action which relates to three-quarters cover:
This, of course, is absolute nonsense. We know that the term "Line of Sight" is a precisely defined game concept within the DMG and that text has already been quoted in this thread a few times already.
However, the point was that if we can make the assumption that the "Line of Sight" phrase will eventually be fixed or if we simply house-rule that one phrase to align with what they obviously intended to say within that phrase, then the Hide action works as I've described, and it has the benefits to the person located behind the column that I've explained.
We really shouldn't need any rule to tell us that if we stop doing something then we are no longer doing that thing. Such common sense about the world applies globally throughout the game. It's just one of many thousands of assumptions that must be made in order to play the game.
The Search mechanic only applies "while hidden". Hiding is an ongoing activity -- the value of your Stealth roll is saved until later. But if you stop hiding, this value of your Stealth roll no longer applies to anything. In that case, the Search action is no longer necessary to find you because there is no longer any Stealth value to try to beat. You can be found with no action and no roll required.
Let's assume that your heavily obscured area does not actually provide any cover since you ask about cover in one of your other case situations. Perhaps for clarity we might change the scenario to "moving through an area of total darkness" (and your enemy does not have darkvision), so we're just talking about hiding in or sneaking through a heavily obscured space.
In such a case, if you are not hiding then your enemy knows where you are. He can attack you at disadvantage. You have advantage when you attack that enemy.
If you are hiding, then your enemy does not know where you are. Your enemy must first "guess the square" when attacking you, and when wrong it's an auto-miss. When correct, he still rolls his attack at disadvantage. You have advantage when you attack that enemy. In addition, you have advantage on your initiative roll.
In this situation, you are behind total cover.
In such a case, if you are not hiding then your enemy knows where you are. But he cannot target you due to total cover. When you pop-out to attack your enemy from this position, you attack normally, not with advantage.
If you are hiding, then your enemy does not know where you are. But he cannot target you anyway due to total cover (but since he doesn't know where you are, a DM might decide that this NPC is much less likely to deliberately make an effort to move to a position where you no longer have total cover in order to attack you -- if the NPC is the one that is hiding, this might mean the difference between the DM leaving the mini on the map or removing it from the map). When you pop-out to three-quarters cover but you are not within your enemy's line-of-sight (assuming that's a thing -- probably intended to be adjudicated case-by-case by the DM), you attack with advantage. In addition, you have advantage on your initiative roll.
This works pretty much the same as the second case situation.
It doesn't, though. The question answered is a loaded one. Unfortunately. If any creature sees you while hidden, then you're not hidden. But the real question is "do they see you"... because it is the successful perception check that allows them to see you.
"Find you" is well enough defined in the Hide rules themself.
So we have a situation where the question asked doesn't actually clear anything up. What should have been asked was:
But that isn't what was asked or answered.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Creatures that see invisible see through the invisibility granted by the hidden condition, and therefore see you without requiring a check.
That is, not strictly true. If the only thing preventing them from seeing you was the invisibility alone, they would automatically see them. But, in the case of a hidden creature, the invisibility isn't the cause of being hidden, but is the result of being hidden.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
And the mechanical effect of being hidden is that you gain the invisible condition.
Are you arguing being hidden doesn't conceal your location? That's a hot take.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's no evidence that hidden does anything but grant you the invisible condition, unless you want to take 2014 as evidence.
So you really are arguing that you know where hidden creatures are? That's... interesting.
But, no. Hiding conceals you, and makes it so an enemy needs to roll a perception check to find you.
It isn't just being invisible.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unless they add errata or sage advice that says it does something more... yes, all hiding does is make you invisible.
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
Nothing is happening to their memory. You are being sufficiently evasive, sneaky, and deceptive that they lose track of you. "Crap! I lost em! Where'd they go?"
It's not uncommon for a DM to rule that a "single column surrounded by wide space" isn't suitable for hiding. Or, I dunno, you just have disadvantage because they want you to still have a chance to feel cool about being stealthy...RaF, yo.
You are clearly nailing why that claim is bunk. It would make Hide in combat pointless --- or at least make attacking while hidden pointless --- yet the rules have several places (already shown) entirely based on attacking from hidden. Ergo, that interpretation is not compelling.
"Hide" is an Action; being "hidden" is a condition --- specifically, a shallow wrapper around the Invisible Condition, that requires being unseen and unheard. "Being found" means someone saw or heard you (more or less), despite your best efforts.
A Search Action is the clearest mechanic for finding a hidden person. Passive Perception (always, effectively, only determined by the DM) is another --- especially good for determining if you hear them and take notice. The rest is up to DM fiat rulings, because that's how D&D is designed. Per the new SAC:
"The DM is key. Many unexpected things can happen in a D&D campaign, and no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unwieldy. An alternative would be for the rules to severely limit what characters can do, which would be counter to the open-endedness of D&D. The direction we took for fifth edition was to lay a foundation of rules that a DM could build on, and we celebrate the DM as the bridge between the things the rules address and the things they don’t."
In my opinion, the best way to ruin a rogue's stealth day is using an enemy with Tremorsense. The current Rogue/Thief that I play has a deep seated fear of Bulettes, entirely from a single encounter (in 2016 or so). Magic sonar really is the best way to make Hide pretty useless. (Truesight and Blindsight not so much, because they don't give you 360-degree awareness or whatever, though they do negate darkness and illusions as things to Hide behind...)
Then by your interpretation, a Rogue with Expertise in Stealth could remain hidden forever (with Reliable Talent, that Rogue is never rolling any less than a 18 starting at level 9 without even considering Dex or any other bonuses). If you can walk into plain sight after you Hide without breaking it, you can just Hide once and then be Invisible until you attack/cast. If "Find you" is only done by a Perception check, then you can just spam it until you Nat 20 and then never be found again.
You could also duck behind a wall, Hide to turn Invisible, and then sprint across the battlefield to stab someone in the face with advantage. Because nothing breaks your Invisible until you attack.
5.5e Hide is either useless or broken. The most liked reply here has completely rewritten both Hide and Invisible to fix the cluster that is 5.5e Stealth.
The only problem with attacking while hiding is the rule that you can't hide when any creature has line of sight on you, which also breaks other bits of hiding (in particular, it means you can't actually hide behind 3/4 cover). Delete that, and the way you attack out of hiding is that you pop out slightly (enough to still have 3/4 cover) and make your (probably ranged) attack.
Sure, if you ignore half of what I posted, replace your DM with a lampshade, and use a reductio ad absurdum argument... I didn't say a damn thing about "plain sight." I'm talking about sneaking on a battlefield.
Oh no! Not Sneak Attack at 30 feet! The Rogue might do halfway-decent damage!
The Assassin can do that without a Stealth check at level 9 (Steady Aim doesn't reduce their speed at that point).
What's next? A Fighter can just walk up to someone at hit them 3 times? Perish the thought, this is so broken.
</sarcasm>
This is just histronics.
What the rule actually says about line of sight: "...and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you." In other words, it is implicitly possible to be able to see an enemy without them seeing you. You are using a definition of "line of sight" that is unsupported in the rules.