Normal interaction allows you to either draw OR stow a single weapon, dual wielder’s quickdraw allows you to draw OR stow the normal weapon AND draw Or stow a second weapon.
When the wording is :” … or …” it’s one OR the other not both. - that would be AND. Normal interaction allows you to either draw OR stow a single weapon, dual wielder’s quickdraw allows you to draw OR stow the normal weapon AND draw Or stow a second weapon. What isn’t completely clear is if this is addition to the draw/stow of the basic action or replaces it. In my example above I wrote is in addition to but the second round probably should only get the first two draw/stows and not the third.
It replaces the single draw/stow:
You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
My reading is also that you must draw or stow both; you can't do one of each.
I'm 100% sure it's RAI. The RAW isn't fully clear.
My reasoning is that it's giving you a single interaction with two items, not two separate interactions, and that furthermore "draw or stow" is a choice of interaction, not a single more flexible interaction. But it's not a bulletproof reading.
It comes down to the difference between an inclusive or exclusive OR. Under normal circumstances I’d read “Or” as meaning either or both, but I think here it’s probably intended to be exclusive.
Jl8e that it’s either draw 2 or stow 2 is the most restrictive reading possible, leaving no room for player agency. My reading of 2 choices, one with each of 2 weapons is the less restrictive reading allowing player agency, as such I think it’s the RAI as well as the RAW. Until we get an official explanation we will probably have to leave it there.
Jl8e that it’s either draw 2 or stow 2 is the most restrictive reading possible, leaving no room for player agency. My reading of 2 choices, one with each of 2 weapons is the less restrictive reading allowing player agency, as such I think it’s the RAI as well as the RAW. Until we get an official explanation we will probably have to leave it there.
I mean, mostly it doesn't matter. The main reason for it is so that the dual-wielders can just pull out both their weapons at once and do their thing. It seems unlikely anyone will need to care except for the extreme weapon jugglers, and they already have quite a lot of flexibility; if DW is supposed to be that way, then they can basically do anything they want.
(It is possible that they meant it that way; they do seem to have intended to allow weapon juggling, or at least didn't care if they did. But I think they ought to have phrased it differently were it what they meant.)
For most players, I think the primary effect of the ability is to let them have more style -- it's just cooler to be able to draw or put away both your blades at once.
Well sort of - yes it ncrease the number of weapons but that means you 2 draws/2 stows/1 of each instead of 1 draw or stow - so you have 2 not 1 but only 1 with each weapon.
Well sort of - yes it ncrease the number of weapons but that means you 2 draws/2 stows/1 of each instead of 1 draw or stow - so you have 2 not 1 but only 1 with each weapon.
Bold emphasis mine, that's not how i read it. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one. Meaning;
You can draw or stow two weapons instead of only one as free Object Interaction. Doing it again require the Utilize action.
You can draw or stow two weapons instead of only one when you make an attack as part of Attack action. Doing it again require a free Object Interaction or the Utilize action.
You can draw two thrown weapon instead of only one as part of ranged attack with a Thrown weapon. Doing it again require a free Object Interaction or the Utilize action.
The video is incorrect. You can only make 1 extra attack regardless of if you stack dual wielding and nick weapons.
The specific overrules the general. The nick property specifically states that you can only make the extra attack (your bonus action attack that moved to the attack action) with the second weapon once. Just once.
The dual wielder feat reads that you can make the second weapon attack with a bonus action as long as the weapon is is not two-handed. This allows for you to use a non light weapon for an attack with your bonus action. But since nick explicitly states you can only make the extra attack once it does not stack. The off hand attack is still the one that would use your bonus action in either case and nicks specific rule states just once.
The purpose of nick is to move the extra attack to be more action economically effective to, not to free up the bonus action for another attack as stated in the feat
The video is incorrect. You can only make 1 extra attack regardless of if you stack dual wielding and nick weapons.
The specific overrules the general. The nick property specifically states that you can only make the extra attack (your bonus action attack that moved to the attack action) with the second weapon once. Just once.
The dual wielder feat reads that you can make the second weapon attack with a bonus action as long as the weapon is is not two-handed. This allows for you to use a non light weapon for an attack with your bonus action. But since nick explicitly states you can only make the extra attack once it does not stack. The off hand attack is still the one that would use your bonus action in either case and nicks specific rule states just once.
The purpose of nick is to move the extra attack to be more action economically effective to, not to free up the bonus action for another attack as stated in the feat
Nick is distinct from the Bonus Action attack granted from the Light property. The attack is moved from the Bonus Action to the Attack action. The reason for the clause, "You can make this extra attack only once per turn," is because of Action Surge. The designers don't want someone moving that Light weapon attack more than once per turn, and there's no guarantee the character in question will be carrying a Nick weapon.
Regardless, the player character still has an unspent Bonus Action. Anything which grants a use for that Bonus Action may be used. Presumably, this includes Dual Wielder because it doesn't expressly modify the Light property. This interpretation does rely on the Light property to grant the Bonus Action attack with a non-standard weapon.
You're welcome to rule the feat as modifying the property and only one extra attack is possible, regardless of which action it uses, but you're wrong about Nick being the limiting factor.
The video is incorrect. You can only make 1 extra attack regardless of if you stack dual wielding and nick weapons.
The specific overrules the general. The nick property specifically states that you can only make the extra attack (your bonus action attack that moved to the attack action) with the second weapon once. Just once.
The dual wielder feat reads that you can make the second weapon attack with a bonus action as long as the weapon is is not two-handed. This allows for you to use a non light weapon for an attack with your bonus action. But since nick explicitly states you can only make the extra attack once it does not stack. The off hand attack is still the one that would use your bonus action in either case and nicks specific rule states just once.
The purpose of nick is to move the extra attack to be more action economically effective to, not to free up the bonus action for another attack as stated in the feat
Nick is distinct from the Bonus Action attack granted from the Light property. The attack is moved from the Bonus Action to the Attack action. The reason for the clause, "You can make this extra attack only once per turn," is because of Action Surge. The designers don't want someone moving that Light weapon attack more than once per turn, and there's no guarantee the character in question will be carrying a Nick weapon.
Regardless, the player character still has an unspent Bonus Action. Anything which grants a use for that Bonus Action may be used. Presumably, this includes Dual Wielder because it doesn't expressly modify the Light property. This interpretation does rely on the Light property to grant the Bonus Action attack with a non-standard weapon.
You're welcome to rule the feat as modifying the property and only one extra attack is possible, regardless of which action it uses, but you're wrong about Nick being the limiting factor.
To be more specific:
Nick says:
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Dual Wielder says:
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Lightproperty, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn
DW is triggered by attacking with a Light weapon, but is explicitly not modifying the property like Nick does. It's the extra attack of the Dual Wielder ability, so is still usable.
The extra attack from Dual Wielder feat and the Light property are distinct. They just uses similar wording for bonus action timing and weapon requirements among other things.
The Nick Mastery has no extra attack of its own, it modify the extra attack from the Light property itself.
The 3 features can therefore be used on the same turn, and the two extra attacks can be affected by Two Weapon Fighting feat.
They are not distinct, they are literally the exact same attack.
Light "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon."
DW
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property."
The only specific overriding here, is that the weapon for the extra attack doesn't need to be made with a light weapon.
Nick "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
Nick explicitly states you can only get one extra attack from attacking with a weapon that has the light property, and frees up your bonus action for something else, not another light weapon activated attack.
DW lets you use a non light weapon for this attack it does not grant and extra extra attack. It also lets you stow/draw 2 weapons per timing window, instead of just 1, which enables thrown weapon builds, and some ridiculous weapon juggling.
They are not distinct, they are literally the exact same attack.
No they are two separate features and thus, even though they trigger of the same act, they produce two separate effects, i.e two separate attacks.
I got tripped up by this too initially and I'm not 100% certain that it is intended (or if it will be subject of an errata) but as it stands it is quite clear how it works. It is certainly different to how Two-Weapon fighting worked in the 2014 rules but then again it also lost the requirement to wield both weapons simultaneously.
Nick explicitly states you can only get one extra attack from attacking with a weapon that has the light property, and frees up your bonus action for something else, not another light weapon activated attack.
Read nick again. It doesn't say "attacking with a weapon that has the light property". It specifically talks about the "Extra attack of the Light property". That's a specific ability, not just any old attack from using a Light weapon.
Meanwhile, DW does not talk about the extra attack of the light property. Instead, it introduces an entirely separate attack, triggered by attacking with a light weapon.
Yes, this is overly fussy and could have been made clearer, but it's not ambiguous on close reading. (The problem is that it requires close reading.)
DW lets you use a non light weapon for this attack it does not grant and extra extra attack. It also lets you stow/draw 2 weapons per timing window, instead of just 1, which enables thrown weapon builds, and some ridiculous weapon juggling.
If it didn't give you an extra attack above and beyond the light/nick attack, would it really be worth taking?
Treantmonk Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
if this comment is indeed true then I stand corrected. Although as it is written it is absolutely ambiguous and it should not use the exact same wording.
Treantmonk Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
Treantmonk Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
if this comment is indeed true then I stand corrected. Although as it is written it is absolutely ambiguous and it should not use the exact same wording.
Oops. I replied with the exact same thing and just noticed you edited your reply to include the same. EDIT: Magic is everywhere.
The way I read the dual wielder feat, it is a completely separate attack to that of the attack granted by the light property.
Nick moves the attack of the light property from a BA to be part of the attack action that triggers it.
So with light weapons, with the nick property (and mastery) and the dual wielder feat. You would get 2 additional attacks (with one of those consuming the BA).
Where it gets less clear is adding two weapon fighting on top, the light extra attack does benefit from it but I am uncertain on the dual wielder attack, I would lean on the side that it does not as it is not an attack from the light property, it just has a light weapon requirement.
Overall +2 attacks is pretty strong but a requirement for dual wielding to stay competitive against the new Great Weapon Master feat. GWM + Polearm with Halberd and Glaive weapon switching is likely too offer more damage to Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin. So this option is mostly for melee Ranger and Rogue.
Dual wielder does notably also give a melee weapon restriction so it wouldn't be usable with a hand crossbow and no ranged weapon has nick anyways. Notably when going ranged, Ranger can do crossbow expert+GWM for heavy crossbow now, which is cool, you just miss out on the hew property.
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to make the second attack after attacking with a Light weapon using a non-Light weapon as long as it's not Two-Handed.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style allows you to add your ability modifier to the damage of the aforementioned second attack, effectively being a bonus to the damage of one attack, not an additional attack in itself.
The way I've understood Nick, applying this to a Scimitar-Rapier combo: make two attacks with the Scimitar (Attack + Nick), then one attack with the Rapier (bonus action). If you get the Extra Attack feature it applies to one weapon attack, since you've already used your bonus action. That's 4 attacks per turn.
Possible additional variations:
- 5 attacks with Fighter's Action Surge, or 6 if you take Fighter to level 20.
- Taking Monk to level 10 and taking a 2-level dip in Fighter, 7 attacks with Action Surge and Flurry of Blows, assuming Nick only applies once per turn.
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Yes, this is the best interpretation.
It replaces the single draw/stow:
My reading is also that you must draw or stow both; you can't do one of each.
I'm 100% sure it's RAI. The RAW isn't fully clear.
My reasoning is that it's giving you a single interaction with two items, not two separate interactions, and that furthermore "draw or stow" is a choice of interaction, not a single more flexible interaction. But it's not a bulletproof reading.
It comes down to the difference between an inclusive or exclusive OR. Under normal circumstances I’d read “Or” as meaning either or both, but I think here it’s probably intended to be exclusive.
Up to DM interpretation anyway.
Jl8e that it’s either draw 2 or stow 2 is the most restrictive reading possible, leaving no room for player agency. My reading of 2 choices, one with each of 2 weapons is the less restrictive reading allowing player agency, as such I think it’s the RAI as well as the RAW. Until we get an official explanation we will probably have to leave it there.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I mean, mostly it doesn't matter. The main reason for it is so that the dual-wielders can just pull out both their weapons at once and do their thing. It seems unlikely anyone will need to care except for the extreme weapon jugglers, and they already have quite a lot of flexibility; if DW is supposed to be that way, then they can basically do anything they want.
(It is possible that they meant it that way; they do seem to have intended to allow weapon juggling, or at least didn't care if they did. But I think they ought to have phrased it differently were it what they meant.)
For most players, I think the primary effect of the ability is to let them have more style -- it's just cooler to be able to draw or put away both your blades at once.
Quick Draw increase the number of weapons you can draw or stow, not the number of times you can do it.
Well sort of - yes it ncrease the number of weapons but that means you 2 draws/2 stows/1 of each instead of 1 draw or stow - so you have 2 not 1 but only 1 with each weapon.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Bold emphasis mine, that's not how i read it. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one. Meaning;
You can draw or stow two weapons instead of only one as free Object Interaction. Doing it again require the Utilize action.
You can draw or stow two weapons instead of only one when you make an attack as part of Attack action. Doing it again require a free Object Interaction or the Utilize action.
You can draw two thrown weapon instead of only one as part of ranged attack with a Thrown weapon. Doing it again require a free Object Interaction or the Utilize action.
The video is incorrect. You can only make 1 extra attack regardless of if you stack dual wielding and nick weapons.
The specific overrules the general. The nick property specifically states that you can only make the extra attack (your bonus action attack that moved to the attack action) with the second weapon once. Just once.
The dual wielder feat reads that you can make the second weapon attack with a bonus action as long as the weapon is is not two-handed. This allows for you to use a non light weapon for an attack with your bonus action. But since nick explicitly states you can only make the extra attack once it does not stack. The off hand attack is still the one that would use your bonus action in either case and nicks specific rule states just once.
The purpose of nick is to move the extra attack to be more action economically effective to, not to free up the bonus action for another attack as stated in the feat
Nick is distinct from the Bonus Action attack granted from the Light property. The attack is moved from the Bonus Action to the Attack action. The reason for the clause, "You can make this extra attack only once per turn," is because of Action Surge. The designers don't want someone moving that Light weapon attack more than once per turn, and there's no guarantee the character in question will be carrying a Nick weapon.
Regardless, the player character still has an unspent Bonus Action. Anything which grants a use for that Bonus Action may be used. Presumably, this includes Dual Wielder because it doesn't expressly modify the Light property. This interpretation does rely on the Light property to grant the Bonus Action attack with a non-standard weapon.
You're welcome to rule the feat as modifying the property and only one extra attack is possible, regardless of which action it uses, but you're wrong about Nick being the limiting factor.
I don't think so.
@Jounichi1983 explained it very well, and there are also more explanations in page #2 and #3 about how Light and the Dual Wielder feat interact.
To be more specific:
Nick says:
Dual Wielder says:
DW is triggered by attacking with a Light weapon, but is explicitly not modifying the property like Nick does. It's the extra attack of the Dual Wielder ability, so is still usable.
The extra attack from Dual Wielder feat and the Light property are distinct. They just uses similar wording for bonus action timing and weapon requirements among other things.
The Nick Mastery has no extra attack of its own, it modify the extra attack from the Light property itself.
The 3 features can therefore be used on the same turn, and the two extra attacks can be affected by Two Weapon Fighting feat.
They are not distinct, they are literally the exact same attack.
Light
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon."
DW
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property."
The only specific overriding here, is that the weapon for the extra attack doesn't need to be made with a light weapon.
Nick
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
Nick explicitly states you can only get one extra attack from attacking with a weapon that has the light property, and frees up your bonus action for something else, not another light weapon activated attack.
DW lets you use a non light weapon for this attack it does not grant and extra extra attack. It also lets you stow/draw 2 weapons per timing window, instead of just 1, which enables thrown weapon builds, and some ridiculous weapon juggling.
No they are two separate features and thus, even though they trigger of the same act, they produce two separate effects, i.e two separate attacks.
I got tripped up by this too initially and I'm not 100% certain that it is intended (or if it will be subject of an errata) but as it stands it is quite clear how it works. It is certainly different to how Two-Weapon fighting worked in the 2014 rules but then again it also lost the requirement to wield both weapons simultaneously.
Read nick again. It doesn't say "attacking with a weapon that has the light property". It specifically talks about the "Extra attack of the Light property". That's a specific ability, not just any old attack from using a Light weapon.
Meanwhile, DW does not talk about the extra attack of the light property. Instead, it introduces an entirely separate attack, triggered by attacking with a light weapon.
Yes, this is overly fussy and could have been made clearer, but it's not ambiguous on close reading. (The problem is that it requires close reading.)
If it didn't give you an extra attack above and beyond the light/nick attack, would it really be worth taking?
Treantmonk
Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
if this comment is indeed true then I stand corrected. Although as it is written it is absolutely ambiguous and it should not use the exact same wording.
@AlberothTheBrave if it helps you in any way, the Dungeon Dudes asked Jeremy Crawford about how DW works when combined with Nick at GenCon.
The next comment can be found in this Treatmonk's pre-release video.
Oops. I replied with the exact same thing and just noticed you edited your reply to include the same. EDIT: Magic is everywhere.
In my case, I found this comment some time ago in this thread: 2024 Two-Weapon Fighting With Dual Wielder and Nick Mastery: 4 Attacks + Damage modifier, WITH Shield? - General Discussion
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to make the second attack after attacking with a Light weapon using a non-Light weapon as long as it's not Two-Handed.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style allows you to add your ability modifier to the damage of the aforementioned second attack, effectively being a bonus to the damage of one attack, not an additional attack in itself.
The way I've understood Nick, applying this to a Scimitar-Rapier combo: make two attacks with the Scimitar (Attack + Nick), then one attack with the Rapier (bonus action). If you get the Extra Attack feature it applies to one weapon attack, since you've already used your bonus action. That's 4 attacks per turn.
Possible additional variations:
- 5 attacks with Fighter's Action Surge, or 6 if you take Fighter to level 20.
- Taking Monk to level 10 and taking a 2-level dip in Fighter, 7 attacks with Action Surge and Flurry of Blows, assuming Nick only applies once per turn.