So your position can be summarized that all damage that any creature takes only occurs on its turn? If you reduce its HP to zero, does it remain standing and aware until its turn? Does it fall at the beginning of its turn, even if it is the last attack in the last part of the fighter's turn that brought it to zero HP?
Do you use this same incorrect idea when it comes to conditions? If a player casts darkness on an area that includes a monster, can that monster still see until its next turn? Can, for example, it use a reaction ability to teleport to a place it can see, even in that darkness?
They take damage when the spell say they do. Read each version of the spell. They each have phrases indicating when they do damage. The two versions are different.
Edit: I'm just asking you to try to actually understand the position you are stating. I don't think you've considered the repercussions of it. Turns happen in order and things that happen on intervening turns occur on those turns, not on your turn. That is fundamental to how turn based games work.
Ok so first in your 2014 example, when Grag is pused into the Moonbeam he takes damage right, because they are placed into the beam, so why wasn’t Therazu damaged when the spell’s area was created and placed directly on them?
Is that not the same as casting the spell and then immediately moving it on and into the creatures space? Should not the expected result of casting a spell immediately on a creature that is expected to damaged by the spell immediate damage?
Is the reason why this does not occur because it is not absolutely spelled out verbatim in the descriptive text that the spell provides?
. . .
To finish the 2014 example, Therazu never took damage, yet twice they were in the area of the beam, as in the beam was quite literally placed on them twice, and in both instances should have been damaged. ( first time was when it was cast on them, and by the wording of the spell was entered in the AoE, second time of damage was when the spell was moved on them, again by way of wording of “ or you enter the area…”, and been damaged.)
Ok, are you really still not getting how this works yet or are you just causing trouble? The relevant portions of both spell descriptions have been quoted and the important information has been bolded for your convenience several times now by multiple individuals in this thread. It has been extremely clearly explained to you about a dozen times already.
Spells do what they say. Each version of this spell specifies exactly when a creature makes a save and takes the resulting damage. In 2014, casting the spell directly onto a creature did not damage them right away. Moving the spell directly onto a creature also did not damage them right away. Instead, "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" it takes damage.
Entering the spell's area is not the same thing as the spell entering your area. As written, those are two different things. In addition, Sage Advice has confirmed that they were intended to be two different things. The developer has explained that the design concept for the original 2014 spell was that it would act as a battlefield hazard. Creatures would have to be careful to move around these hazards to avoid taking damage.
So, no. Saying that when the spell is placed on a creature that creature "should have been damaged" is incorrect. That's not what the spell description says, so that's not what the spell does.
In fact, if that interpretation was used for the 2014 spell, the spellcaster would automatically be damaging a creature twice with the spell before the creature ever gets to act, except for certain very rare exceptions. That's because you would be damaging the creature immediately with the beam on the spellcaster's turn, and then they would take damage again at the START of that creature's turn -- which is before that creature can actually do anything. Pretty much no spells work like that -- it wouldn't make any sense. Why not just double the damage dice in the description then if the damage was always going to be applied twice?
That was not the intention. The intention is that when the beam is placed onto a creature, that creature takes the damage once -- on its turn -- and then it can do whatever it wants until its turn rolls around again, at which point there is a reevaluation at the start of that turn to see if it gets damaged again, and so on. In 2014, they did this by specifying that the damage is taken at the start of the creature's turn if the creature is in the area at that moment.
All of this has changed quite dramatically in 2024. Instead of the beam acting as a passive battlefield hazard, it now acts more like a giant lightsaber. You damage creatures by actively moving the beam through that creature's space, slicing into that creature immediately upon impact. Then, that creature gets until the END of his turn to get out of there before being damaged again.
Sorry, but when an individual has proven time and again they have no idea what they are talking about and been wrong on their “rulings”
Sorry but what are you talking about? There has been sage advice and tweets from the creators of the game clarifying that how I presented it is how it works, and if you just read the description of the spell that's how it says it works.
"entering the area" is fundamentally different from "the area entering your space". For a trivial example: you entering a car (all fine), is different from a car entering your space (ow!).
In 2014, it only triggers if a creature enters the area, not if the area enters the creature's space. You can choose to declare this is illogical to laws of magic in your game world. But that is what the rules as written say.
if at any time on any turn a creature is in the beam, damage.
No, neither the 2014 nor the 2024 rules say that because that would be absurdly overpowered. Unless by "turn" you actually mean "round" - each creature takes 1 turn at a time, and once every creature in a combat has taken their individual turn you have completed 1 round of combat. So a combat with 5 creatures has 5 turns per round, if it lasts for 3 rounds there has been a total of 15 turns.
The timing of the damage in the 14 version of Moonbeam is any time they are in the beam, even if it’s initially casted on them in the beginning.
2014 5e Moonbeam spell has “When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there” as the first sentence, second paragraph that covers every instance of when a creature is affected by the effect.
Just to be clear, you want to equate a stationary creature having the Moonbeam appear on top of them with a creature stepping/pushed into the Moonbeam?
While those things descriptively sound the same, and maybe common sense would say they are, _mechanically speaking_ they are NOT the same in 2014 rules. They just aren't, and several people in the thread have provided examples and quotes to try to explain that.
( biggest problem with round/turn terminology is the ability to understand a creature’s turn comprises of the whole 6 second round, and the space that can ether be before or after a creature’s “turn” ( or ability to act, take actions, or whatever) is the entirety of a creature’s turn, which resets when the next round starts.
Ah.. I see the problem. You are trying to treat this as a real-time game, not a turn-based game. D&D is turn based, and one is supposed to use their imagination to have it all occur during the same 6 seconds. But despite that it is to be adjudicated as if it were 5 distinct turns in a round - hence why there are different things that refer to "start of the round" vs "start of your turn" vs "end of the round" vs "end of your turn" or "at initiative 10" or "at initiative 20" - these timing distinctions would have no meaning under your misinterpretation. There are other initiative systems some people use for D&D to make it more similar to simultaneous activity but they are not RAW.
Are you unsure that both 2014 and 2024 rules sets make a distinction between a creature entering an area and an area being moved onto a creature?
If you continue to be tripped up here, you will continue to make the same mistake. Both rulesets apparently from their text make this distinction. If you do not, you are simply incorrect.
Therazu, regardless if it’s realtime or turn time based combat, or a non combat situation, Therazu has entered the AoE of Meiko’s 2014 Moonbeam on Meiko’s turn.
No he hasn't, please see my example with a car. The AoE has entered Therazu's space, Therazu hasn't entered anything he has stood completely still. If I were to build a house around a statue at no point did that statue "enter" my house. Please revise your understanding of the word "enter". Entering requires moving, if Therazu has not moved he has not "entered" anything.
2024 and 2014 Moonbeam spells are the same. Different words, same function.
Incorrect. These two versions of the spell are different.
Even if you found a DM that agrees with you that the 2014 Moonbeam should cause damage immediately when it is cast onto a creature and also when the beam is moved onto a creature, there would still be this glaring difference:
2014:
When a creature . . . starts its turn there
2024:
when it . . . ends its turn there
Under your interpretation, this results in the creature being damaged twice in 2014. In 2024 the creature is only damaged once. That's as different as it gets.
As a side note if a creature enters the area on its turn it takes damage immediately for both versions, but for the 2024 version It would not take damage again at the end of its turn because of the once per turn rule.
This means for entering the area ONLY the 2014 and 2024 versions work similarly dealing damage once for entering and not more on that turn
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So your position can be summarized that all damage that any creature takes only occurs on its turn? If you reduce its HP to zero, does it remain standing and aware until its turn? Does it fall at the beginning of its turn, even if it is the last attack in the last part of the fighter's turn that brought it to zero HP?
Do you use this same incorrect idea when it comes to conditions? If a player casts darkness on an area that includes a monster, can that monster still see until its next turn? Can, for example, it use a reaction ability to teleport to a place it can see, even in that darkness?
They take damage when the spell say they do. Read each version of the spell. They each have phrases indicating when they do damage. The two versions are different.
Edit: I'm just asking you to try to actually understand the position you are stating. I don't think you've considered the repercussions of it. Turns happen in order and things that happen on intervening turns occur on those turns, not on your turn. That is fundamental to how turn based games work.
Ok, are you really still not getting how this works yet or are you just causing trouble? The relevant portions of both spell descriptions have been quoted and the important information has been bolded for your convenience several times now by multiple individuals in this thread. It has been extremely clearly explained to you about a dozen times already.
Spells do what they say. Each version of this spell specifies exactly when a creature makes a save and takes the resulting damage. In 2014, casting the spell directly onto a creature did not damage them right away. Moving the spell directly onto a creature also did not damage them right away. Instead, "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" it takes damage.
Entering the spell's area is not the same thing as the spell entering your area. As written, those are two different things. In addition, Sage Advice has confirmed that they were intended to be two different things. The developer has explained that the design concept for the original 2014 spell was that it would act as a battlefield hazard. Creatures would have to be careful to move around these hazards to avoid taking damage.
So, no. Saying that when the spell is placed on a creature that creature "should have been damaged" is incorrect. That's not what the spell description says, so that's not what the spell does.
In fact, if that interpretation was used for the 2014 spell, the spellcaster would automatically be damaging a creature twice with the spell before the creature ever gets to act, except for certain very rare exceptions. That's because you would be damaging the creature immediately with the beam on the spellcaster's turn, and then they would take damage again at the START of that creature's turn -- which is before that creature can actually do anything. Pretty much no spells work like that -- it wouldn't make any sense. Why not just double the damage dice in the description then if the damage was always going to be applied twice?
That was not the intention. The intention is that when the beam is placed onto a creature, that creature takes the damage once -- on its turn -- and then it can do whatever it wants until its turn rolls around again, at which point there is a reevaluation at the start of that turn to see if it gets damaged again, and so on. In 2014, they did this by specifying that the damage is taken at the start of the creature's turn if the creature is in the area at that moment.
All of this has changed quite dramatically in 2024. Instead of the beam acting as a passive battlefield hazard, it now acts more like a giant lightsaber. You damage creatures by actively moving the beam through that creature's space, slicing into that creature immediately upon impact. Then, that creature gets until the END of his turn to get out of there before being damaged again.
Completely different mechanic.
Sorry but what are you talking about? There has been sage advice and tweets from the creators of the game clarifying that how I presented it is how it works, and if you just read the description of the spell that's how it says it works.
"entering the area" is fundamentally different from "the area entering your space". For a trivial example: you entering a car (all fine), is different from a car entering your space (ow!).
In 2014, it only triggers if a creature enters the area, not if the area enters the creature's space. You can choose to declare this is illogical to laws of magic in your game world. But that is what the rules as written say.
No, neither the 2014 nor the 2024 rules say that because that would be absurdly overpowered. Unless by "turn" you actually mean "round" - each creature takes 1 turn at a time, and once every creature in a combat has taken their individual turn you have completed 1 round of combat. So a combat with 5 creatures has 5 turns per round, if it lasts for 3 rounds there has been a total of 15 turns.
Just to be clear, you want to equate a stationary creature having the Moonbeam appear on top of them with a creature stepping/pushed into the Moonbeam?
While those things descriptively sound the same, and maybe common sense would say they are, _mechanically speaking_ they are NOT the same in 2014 rules. They just aren't, and several people in the thread have provided examples and quotes to try to explain that.
Ah.. I see the problem. You are trying to treat this as a real-time game, not a turn-based game. D&D is turn based, and one is supposed to use their imagination to have it all occur during the same 6 seconds. But despite that it is to be adjudicated as if it were 5 distinct turns in a round - hence why there are different things that refer to "start of the round" vs "start of your turn" vs "end of the round" vs "end of your turn" or "at initiative 10" or "at initiative 20" - these timing distinctions would have no meaning under your misinterpretation. There are other initiative systems some people use for D&D to make it more similar to simultaneous activity but they are not RAW.
Are you unsure that both 2014 and 2024 rules sets make a distinction between a creature entering an area and an area being moved onto a creature?
If you continue to be tripped up here, you will continue to make the same mistake. Both rulesets apparently from their text make this distinction. If you do not, you are simply incorrect.
No he hasn't, please see my example with a car. The AoE has entered Therazu's space, Therazu hasn't entered anything he has stood completely still. If I were to build a house around a statue at no point did that statue "enter" my house. Please revise your understanding of the word "enter". Entering requires moving, if Therazu has not moved he has not "entered" anything.
Incorrect.
2014 Moonbeam triggers:
-- When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn
-- starts its turn there
2024 Moonbeam triggers:
-- When the Cylinder appears
-- when the spell’s area moves into its space
-- when it enters the spell’s area
-- ends its turn there
. . . these two lists are not the same.
Incorrect. These two versions of the spell are different.
Even if you found a DM that agrees with you that the 2014 Moonbeam should cause damage immediately when it is cast onto a creature and also when the beam is moved onto a creature, there would still be this glaring difference:
2014:
2024:
Under your interpretation, this results in the creature being damaged twice in 2014. In 2024 the creature is only damaged once. That's as different as it gets.
As a side note if a creature enters the area on its turn it takes damage immediately for both versions, but for the 2024 version It would not take damage again at the end of its turn because of the once per turn rule.
This means for entering the area ONLY the 2014 and 2024 versions work similarly dealing damage once for entering and not more on that turn