Yea I have to agree with Saga here, nothing in the feature indicates that the illusion is casting the spell, everything points to the character doing it and thus the tangibility (or lack of) of the illusion is irrelevant. The feature says that you can cast spells from a specified location and thus you can.
My kid (whom I play a lot of DnD with) is a huge Arsenal fan, btw!
In reading that line again about location -- the feature is closer to the Echo Knight than I thought, but this duplicate is limited to spells (and spell attacks) rather than any kind of attack. Thanks! T
Hi Again, As the heading of the thread states, I'm dealing with 5e rules and descriptions, ie 2014 PHB, not OneDnD/2024 -- if anyone has any insights to original question, please lmk and thanks! T
You seem to be misunderstanding some things. The 2024 rules are still very much 5e, so “I’m dealing with 5e rules” isn’t a useful clarification. We’re all dealing with 5e rules.
That said, nothing relevant to your question has changed between 2014 and 2024. You can cast spells as if you were in the illusion’s space. If you were in the illusion’s space, you wouldn’t have any trouble making the melee attack that is part of the spellcasting, so you can do it.
Got it -- I didn't realize WotC considered the new updates "5e" rather I thought it was designed to be 5e compatible. Your attentive reading of the phrase "as if you were in the illusion's space" clarifies it for me!
If i understand well, it is not allow to cast another spell having concentration, am i right ? Combo with spirit gardian is not allowed if i'm right ?
If the game is being run under the 2014 rules, that is correct. If you're running under the 2024 rules however, the rules are changed and the Duplicate no longer requires concentration. EDIT: You still can't have the Spirit Guardians come from the duplicate, however, due to the range of Self.
IMO, Spirit Guardians and other "Range: Self" spells work with Invoke Duplicity, and the same goes for Gaze of Two Minds since it's very similar:
While perceiving through the other creature’s senses, you benefit from any special senses possessed by that creature, and you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature’s space if the two of you are within 60 feet of each other.
Range "indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate", and Self means that "the spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell".
So in the case of spells like Cone of Cold, Spirit Guardians, or Thunderwave that have "Range: Self", the spell's effects originate from you or your Duplicity, depending on the case, and the spell also emanates from you or your Duplicity.
It seems that the main disagreement about how these features work is in how to interpret phrases such as "cast a spell as if you were in another space".
One reasonable interpretation is that this only applies to the *casting* of the spell but does not actually impact the resulting *spell effect*. This would mean that certain spells just do not function correctly when attempting to cast it remotely like this. For example, Booming Blade could *originate* from another location, but the actual spell effect requires the target to be "within 5 feet of you". This "you" is the actual you because this is part of the spell effect, not the spell casting process.
The simplest interpretation is that the feature does what it says it does: for the purposes of casting spells, you occupy your space and your duplicate's space. If we assume that this works as intended with all spells (which should be the default assumption), then the Booming Blade attack can originate from the Duplicate's space assuming that you can see the target within 5' of the Duplicate.
Does this make sense? Not necessarily, but it is magic writing the rules. I personally have never subscribed to the idea that the weapon attack cantrips have a nonmagical component in the attack; they are spells which use game mechanics that interact with feats/features/etc normally not applied to spells, but at the end of the day they are spells doing spell damage. Or to put it another way: if you cast True Strike and attacked a MM2014 Archmage (resistant to damage from spells), it would have resistance to all of the damage from the attack.
The simplest interpretation is that the feature does what it says it does: for the purposes of casting spells, you occupy your space and your duplicate's space. If we assume that this works as intended with all spells (which should be the default assumption), then the Booming Blade attack can originate from the Duplicate's space assuming that you can see the target within 5' of the Duplicate.
That is part of the debate that is already covered in the threads TarodNet linked. Some spells, like Booming Blade, True Strike, and Green Flame Blade, could be argued as being cast on the caster or the weapon and, as such, casting from another space via Invoke Duplicity or Gaze of Two Minds doesn't matter, but Manifest Echo might (would require 3 levels of Echo Knight Fighter and 6 levels of College of Valor Bard). I am of the opinion that these spells trigger weapon attacks rather than have spell attacks as part of the casting. Some people disagree or are on the fence.
What it boils down to is, do not assume either position is correct and instead talk with your DM before relying on this tactic in a game.
The simplest interpretation is that the feature does what it says it does: for the purposes of casting spells, you occupy your space and your duplicate's space. If we assume that this works as intended with all spells (which should be the default assumption), then the Booming Blade attack can originate from the Duplicate's space assuming that you can see the target within 5' of the Duplicate.
That is part of the debate that is already covered in the threads TarodNet linked. Some spells, like Booming Blade, True Strike, and Green Flame Blade, could be argued as being cast on the caster or the weapon and, as such, casting from another space via Invoke Duplicity or Gaze of Two Minds doesn't matter, but Manifest Echo might (would require 3 levels of Echo Knight Fighter and 6 levels of College of Valor Bard). I am of the opinion that these spells trigger weapon attacks rather than have spell attacks as part of the casting. Some people disagree or are on the fence.
What it boils down to is, do not assume either position is correct and instead talk with your DM before relying on this tactic in a game.
The rules are explicit. Range of Self means one thing: the Caster is the target of the spell unless the spell is an emanation, at which point they are the origin of the emanation. If the weapon the caster holds were being cast upon, the range would be Touch (like Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon). The Caster casts a spell targeting themselves (Self) and that spell does (assuming it doesn't get Counterspell'd) whatever is in the spell's description (which includes directing the effects of the spell at targets as described by the spell). Damage, as delivered through a spell's description, is spell damage even if all you are doing is being magically guided to swing a sword. Your DM might have a personal way that they want to rule these sorts of things, but default ruling is Spells (and Features, and all specific rules) do what they say they do (Effects subsection of Casting Spells "Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws; any outcomes beyond those effects are under the DM's purview.")
The question of triggering a weapon attack or making an attack as part of the casting has a clear answer. The effects of a spell are what happen when the spell is successfully cast, so the effects of a spell cannot be part of the spell casting itself. I fail to see the significance of "triggering a weapon attack," though, because as far as the spell is concerned forcing you to make an attack is not magically different from launching a bright streak that blossoms into a fireball except for which game mechanics are employed in each effect.
My kid (whom I play a lot of DnD with) is a huge Arsenal fan, btw!
In reading that line again about location -- the feature is closer to the Echo Knight than I thought, but this duplicate is limited to spells (and spell attacks) rather than any kind of attack. Thanks! T
Got it -- I didn't realize WotC considered the new updates "5e" rather I thought it was designed to be 5e compatible. Your attentive reading of the phrase "as if you were in the illusion's space" clarifies it for me!
Hello Folks,
If i understand well, it is not allow to cast another spell having concentration, am i right ?
Combo with spirit gardian is not allowed if i'm right ?
It doesn’t cast the spell, the cleric does. So you are correct, only 1 concentration spell is allowed.
I don't think this works because the range of those two spells is Self.
If the game is being run under the 2014 rules, that is correct. If you're running under the 2024 rules however, the rules are changed and the Duplicate no longer requires concentration. EDIT: You still can't have the Spirit Guardians come from the duplicate, however, due to the range of Self.
IMO, Spirit Guardians and other "Range: Self" spells work with Invoke Duplicity, and the same goes for Gaze of Two Minds since it's very similar:
Range "indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate", and Self means that "the spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell".
So in the case of spells like Cone of Cold, Spirit Guardians, or Thunderwave that have "Range: Self", the spell's effects originate from you or your Duplicity, depending on the case, and the spell also emanates from you or your Duplicity.
EDIT: some related threads:
- Gaze of Two Minds 2024 -- multiple senses at once?
- Does Antimagic Field suppress spells cast by Divine Intervention? (or any magic made through Channel Divinity)
- Would this work? - Rules & Game Mechanics
It seems that the main disagreement about how these features work is in how to interpret phrases such as "cast a spell as if you were in another space".
One reasonable interpretation is that this only applies to the *casting* of the spell but does not actually impact the resulting *spell effect*. This would mean that certain spells just do not function correctly when attempting to cast it remotely like this. For example, Booming Blade could *originate* from another location, but the actual spell effect requires the target to be "within 5 feet of you". This "you" is the actual you because this is part of the spell effect, not the spell casting process.
The simplest interpretation is that the feature does what it says it does: for the purposes of casting spells, you occupy your space and your duplicate's space. If we assume that this works as intended with all spells (which should be the default assumption), then the Booming Blade attack can originate from the Duplicate's space assuming that you can see the target within 5' of the Duplicate.
Does this make sense? Not necessarily, but it is magic writing the rules. I personally have never subscribed to the idea that the weapon attack cantrips have a nonmagical component in the attack; they are spells which use game mechanics that interact with feats/features/etc normally not applied to spells, but at the end of the day they are spells doing spell damage. Or to put it another way: if you cast True Strike and attacked a MM2014 Archmage (resistant to damage from spells), it would have resistance to all of the damage from the attack.
That is part of the debate that is already covered in the threads TarodNet linked. Some spells, like Booming Blade, True Strike, and Green Flame Blade, could be argued as being cast on the caster or the weapon and, as such, casting from another space via Invoke Duplicity or Gaze of Two Minds doesn't matter, but Manifest Echo might (would require 3 levels of Echo Knight Fighter and 6 levels of College of Valor Bard). I am of the opinion that these spells trigger weapon attacks rather than have spell attacks as part of the casting. Some people disagree or are on the fence.
What it boils down to is, do not assume either position is correct and instead talk with your DM before relying on this tactic in a game.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The rules are explicit. Range of Self means one thing: the Caster is the target of the spell unless the spell is an emanation, at which point they are the origin of the emanation. If the weapon the caster holds were being cast upon, the range would be Touch (like Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon). The Caster casts a spell targeting themselves (Self) and that spell does (assuming it doesn't get Counterspell'd) whatever is in the spell's description (which includes directing the effects of the spell at targets as described by the spell). Damage, as delivered through a spell's description, is spell damage even if all you are doing is being magically guided to swing a sword. Your DM might have a personal way that they want to rule these sorts of things, but default ruling is Spells (and Features, and all specific rules) do what they say they do (Effects subsection of Casting Spells "Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws; any outcomes beyond those effects are under the DM's purview.")
The question of triggering a weapon attack or making an attack as part of the casting has a clear answer. The effects of a spell are what happen when the spell is successfully cast, so the effects of a spell cannot be part of the spell casting itself. I fail to see the significance of "triggering a weapon attack," though, because as far as the spell is concerned forcing you to make an attack is not magically different from launching a bright streak that blossoms into a fireball except for which game mechanics are employed in each effect.