So this spell works through walls? On invisible creatures? Anyone in full cover? Some random creature within range? Does the damage subtraction of 1d8 on a failed save include area effect spells or any spells for that matter? Why is this so poorly written??
Generally, spells only work on spots within sight. I can't imagine ray of enfeeblement would be any different. Ultimately, I would rule this is up to your DM, however.
So this spell works through walls? On invisible creatures? Anyone in full cover? Some random creature within range? Does the damage subtraction of 1d8 on a failed save include area effect spells or any spells for that matter? Why is this so poorly written??
The general rules on spellcasting defined in the Player's Handbook specify that you can't target something behind Total Cover with a spell, so no, it doesn't work through walls or in full cover. I would not say it is poorly written, so much as that it assumes the reader knows the general rules for spellcasting.
The damage reduction applies to all damage rolls, which is explicitly written right there in the spell description.
So this spell works through walls? On invisible creatures? Anyone in full cover? Some random creature within range? Does the damage subtraction of 1d8 on a failed save include area effect spells or any spells for that matter? Why is this so poorly written??
The general rules on spellcasting defined in the Player's Handbook specify that you can't target something behind Total Cover with a spell, so no, it doesn't work through walls or in full cover. I would not say it is poorly written, so much as that it assumes the reader knows the general rules for spellcasting.
The damage reduction applies to all damage rolls, which is explicitly written right there in the spell description.
I agree with the first statement you made, they shouldn't have to reclarify the general rules for spellcasting on spells unless there is an exception or high potential for confusion within a specific spell.
However, not sure I agree with the second part. Yes it is explicitly written that it should subtract 1d8 from all its damage rolls, but since the ray seems to be directed at weaking strength based abilities specifically, its worth the clarification that spells and other non-strength based damage is affected as well. It's a change from the 2014 version and it's not that surprising to already see people confused/arguing about it.
So this spell works through walls? On invisible creatures? Anyone in full cover? Some random creature within range? Does the damage subtraction of 1d8 on a failed save include area effect spells or any spells for that matter? Why is this so poorly written??
The general rules on spellcasting defined in the Player's Handbook specify that you can't target something behind Total Cover with a spell, so no, it doesn't work through walls or in full cover. I would not say it is poorly written, so much as that it assumes the reader knows the general rules for spellcasting.
The damage reduction applies to all damage rolls, which is explicitly written right there in the spell description.
I agree with the first statement you made, they shouldn't have to reclarify the general rules for spellcasting on spells unless there is an exception or high potential for confusion within a specific spell.
However, not sure I agree with the second part. Yes it is explicitly written that it should subtract 1d8 from all its damage rolls, but since the ray seems to be directed at weaking strength based abilities specifically, its worth the clarification that spells and other non-strength based damage is affected as well. It's a change from the 2014 version and it's not that surprising to already see people confused/arguing about it.
That it subtracts from ALL damage rolls means the spell is now weakening your entire output. If that's the text of the spell, that's how it works. That just means it works on more than just Strength-based things, which is actually a pleasant change, as it affects casters and makes the spell more versatile.
A note about the spell: Part of it being a creature within range means that, while normal casting rules apply (such as no firing through full cover) you CAN fire at an invisible target if you know their location (such as if you hear them moving).
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then its 8d6 - 1d8?
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then its 8d6 - 1d8?
"During that time, it also subtracts 1d8 from all its damage rolls."
Subtract from each attack, and subtract from the Fireball, yes.
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then it’s 8d6 - 1d8?
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then it’s 8d6 - 1d8?
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Ok, I got the first one, and kinda how I was thinking it would work with weapons but the second? I'm confused a bit. Using the Fireball example, are you saying you subtract the 1d8 every time you roll the damage die ((1d6 - 1d8) x8)?
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then it’s 8d6 - 1d8?
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Ok, I got the first one, and kinda how I was thinking it would work with weapons but the second? I'm confused a bit. Using the Fireball example, are you saying you subtract the 1d8 every time you roll the damage die ((1d6 - 1d8) x8)?
No. 8d6 is a single damage roll. It takes from the full roll, not from each die in the roll.
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then it’s 8d6 - 1d8?
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Ok, I got the first one, and kinda how I was thinking it would work with weapons but the second? I'm confused a bit. Using the Fireball example, are you saying you subtract the 1d8 every time you roll the damage die ((1d6 - 1d8) x8)?
No. 8d6 is a single damage roll. It takes from the full roll, not from each die in the roll.
I agree with this and with the previous answer about the interaction when making more than one attack.
The damage roll for a fireball at third level is 8d6. Due to Ray of Enfeeblement, you subtract 1d8 from that damage roll, leaving 8d6 - 1d8 of fire damage.
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then it’s 8d6 - 1d8?
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Ok, I got the first one, and kinda how I was thinking it would work with weapons but the second? I'm confused a bit. Using the Fireball example, are you saying you subtract the 1d8 every time you roll the damage die ((1d6 - 1d8) x8)?
No. 8d6 is a single damage roll. It takes from the full roll, not from each die in the roll.
I agree with this and with the previous answer about the interaction when making more than one attack.
The damage roll for a fireball at third level is 8d6. Due to Ray of Enfeeblement, you subtract 1d8 from that damage roll, leaving 7d6 of fire damage.
That's almost right. From a technical standpoint, you could end up rolling 0 on your Fireball from this if you roll minimum damage and maximum reduction, as you still roll all 8d6 but then reduce it by 1d8. So you're rolling 9 dice total.
Got it all. Thanks for the clarification. The spell does seem more useful now, but looks like it will be more punishing to martials and half-martials (including PotB) than spellcasters.
Got it all. Thanks for the clarification. The spell does seem more useful now, but looks like it will be more punishing to martials and half-martials (including PotB) than spellcasters.
Also punishing to warlocks, as a note. Takes the damage of Eldritch Blast down significantly.
You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
I'm not necessarily convinced about this point. In my opinion, the term "Damage Roll" does not necessarily require the rolling of any dice. It is just a general term that basically means "resolving" any damage that is dealt. The main argument against this would be from how it is written in the Rules Glossary which does refer to die rolls in the definition:
Damage Roll
A damage roll is a die roll, adjusted by any applicable modifiers, that deals damage to a target. See also chapter 1 (“Damage and Healing”).
The question becomes, can this definition also include the possibility of rolling zero dice and then adjusting that result by any applicable modifiers? The wording here is already a bit odd since we already know that the term "Damage Roll" does not refer to exactly one single die roll as might be implied here. Despite the words that are used here (which should really be corrected via errata), we know that it's more of a "roll of the dice" rather than "a die roll".
Let's see how it's written within the actual rules since this Glossary entry is indeed referring us back to chapter 1 ("Damage and Healing"):
From Playing the Game --> Dice --> What are Dice For? --> Damage:
Damage
The most common use for dice other than the d20 is to determine damage. When you make a successful attack roll (one kind of D20 Test), you roll damage to see how effective the attack is. When you cast a spell, you might also roll damage. Different weapons and spells use different dice for damage. For example, a Dagger uses 1d4, a Greataxe uses 1d12, and a Fireball spell uses 8d6.
From Playing the Game --> Combat --> Making an Attack:
Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
From Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Damage Rolls:
Each weapon, spell, and damaging monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target. If there’s a penalty to the damage, it’s possible to deal 0 damage but not negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage roll. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers. Unless a rule says otherwise, you don’t add your ability modifier to a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun. See chapter 6 for weapons’ damage dice and chapter 7 for spells’ damage dice.
Note that the possibility of a fixed damage amount that doesn't use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun is mentioned WITHIN the section of the rules for Damage Rolls. To me, this implies that this is one of the possible forms that a damage roll can take.
Now, I'm sure that a lot of folks around here will claim that I am wrong about this. Hopefully they will do so by showing some support of their claim from the rules text.
You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
I'm not necessarily convinced about this point. In my opinion, the term "Damage Roll" does not necessarily require the rolling of any dice. It is just a general term that basically means "resolving" any damage that is dealt. The main argument against this would be from how it is written in the Rules Glossary which does refer to die rolls in the definition:
Damage Roll
A damage roll is a die roll, adjusted by any applicable modifiers, that deals damage to a target. See also chapter 1 (“Damage and Healing”).
The question becomes, can this definition also include the possibility of rolling zero dice and then adjusting that result by any applicable modifiers? The wording here is already a bit odd since we already know that the term "Damage Roll" does not refer to exactly one single die roll as might be implied here. Despite the words that are used here (which should really be corrected via errata), we know that it's more of a "roll of the dice" rather than "a die roll".
Let's see how it's written within the actual rules since this Glossary entry is indeed referring us back to chapter 1 ("Damage and Healing"):
From Playing the Game --> Dice --> What are Dice For? --> Damage:
Damage
The most common use for dice other than the d20 is to determine damage. When you make a successful attack roll (one kind of D20 Test), you roll damage to see how effective the attack is. When you cast a spell, you might also roll damage. Different weapons and spells use different dice for damage. For example, a Dagger uses 1d4, a Greataxe uses 1d12, and a Fireball spell uses 8d6.
From Playing the Game --> Combat --> Making an Attack:
Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
From Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Damage Rolls:
Each weapon, spell, and damaging monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target. If there’s a penalty to the damage, it’s possible to deal 0 damage but not negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage roll. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers. Unless a rule says otherwise, you don’t add your ability modifier to a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun. See chapter 6 for weapons’ damage dice and chapter 7 for spells’ damage dice.
Note that the possibility of a fixed damage amount that doesn't use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun is mentioned WITHIN the section of the rules for Damage Rolls. To me, this implies that this is one of the possible forms that a damage roll can take.
Now, I'm sure that a lot of folks around here will claim that I am wrong about this. Hopefully they will do so by showing some support of their claim from the rules text.
If that’s how you want to play it at your table, that’s fine, but to me that seems like an immense amount of mental gymnastics to say that something that isn’t a roll is a roll. The new DMG has a whole little sidebar advising DMs against this kind of thing.
To me a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll implies it doesn't count as a damage roll and that's why they specified you don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a Blowgun. If it did count, you would.
So this spell works through walls? On invisible creatures? Anyone in full cover? Some random creature within range? Does the damage subtraction of 1d8 on a failed save include area effect spells or any spells for that matter? Why is this so poorly written??
Generally, spells only work on spots within sight. I can't imagine ray of enfeeblement would be any different. Ultimately, I would rule this is up to your DM, however.
KOBOLDS WITH CANNONS! A RP thread about Small humanoids with Huge weapons.
Proud member of the EVIL JEFF CULT! PRAISE JEFF!
Homebrew Races: HERE Homebrew Spells: HERE Homebrew Monsters: HERE
MORE OF ME! (And platypodes/platypi/platypuses) (Extended signature)
The general rules on spellcasting defined in the Player's Handbook specify that you can't target something behind Total Cover with a spell, so no, it doesn't work through walls or in full cover. I would not say it is poorly written, so much as that it assumes the reader knows the general rules for spellcasting.
The damage reduction applies to all damage rolls, which is explicitly written right there in the spell description.
I agree with the first statement you made, they shouldn't have to reclarify the general rules for spellcasting on spells unless there is an exception or high potential for confusion within a specific spell.
However, not sure I agree with the second part. Yes it is explicitly written that it should subtract 1d8 from all its damage rolls, but since the ray seems to be directed at weaking strength based abilities specifically, its worth the clarification that spells and other non-strength based damage is affected as well. It's a change from the 2014 version and it's not that surprising to already see people confused/arguing about it.
That it subtracts from ALL damage rolls means the spell is now weakening your entire output. If that's the text of the spell, that's how it works. That just means it works on more than just Strength-based things, which is actually a pleasant change, as it affects casters and makes the spell more versatile.
A note about the spell: Part of it being a creature within range means that, while normal casting rules apply (such as no firing through full cover) you CAN fire at an invisible target if you know their location (such as if you hear them moving).
The target of a Ray of Enfeeblement subtracts 1d8 from all its damage rolls to a minimum of 0.
Just for clarification, is the 1d8 subtracted from the total of the damage rolls or for each one? Say, I make 2 attacks at level 5 with a Rapier, do I subtract the 1d8 from each damage roll (1d8+Dex - 1d8, 1d8+Dex - 1d8) or from the total of all 2 attacks (2d8+Dex - 1d8)?
How about if I cast a spell? I assume it would be subtracted from the total; say I cast Fireball, then its 8d6 - 1d8?
"During that time, it also subtracts 1d8 from all its damage rolls."
Subtract from each attack, and subtract from the Fireball, yes.
Even if you’re making multiple attacks with the same action, they are still separate attacks (potentially against different targets) with separate damage rolls, so you subtract the 1d8 from each one.
Same for spells. Each time you roll damage, you subtract 1d8. You don’t subtract it from a damaging effect that does a flat amount of damage without rolling dice, like what the Graze weapon mastery property does when you miss.
Ok, I got the first one, and kinda how I was thinking it would work with weapons but the second? I'm confused a bit. Using the Fireball example, are you saying you subtract the 1d8 every time you roll the damage die ((1d6 - 1d8) x8)?
No. 8d6 is a single damage roll. It takes from the full roll, not from each die in the roll.
I agree with this and with the previous answer about the interaction when making more than one attack.
The damage roll for a fireball at third level is 8d6. Due to Ray of Enfeeblement, you subtract 1d8 from that damage roll, leaving 8d6 - 1d8 of fire damage.
That's almost right. From a technical standpoint, you could end up rolling 0 on your Fireball from this if you roll minimum damage and maximum reduction, as you still roll all 8d6 but then reduce it by 1d8. So you're rolling 9 dice total.
Oops, sorry! Yes, yes, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that... I meant 8d6 - 1d8.
So sorry! :(
(EDIT: previous reply updated)
Got it all. Thanks for the clarification. The spell does seem more useful now, but looks like it will be more punishing to martials and half-martials (including PotB) than spellcasters.
Also punishing to warlocks, as a note. Takes the damage of Eldritch Blast down significantly.
I'm not necessarily convinced about this point. In my opinion, the term "Damage Roll" does not necessarily require the rolling of any dice. It is just a general term that basically means "resolving" any damage that is dealt. The main argument against this would be from how it is written in the Rules Glossary which does refer to die rolls in the definition:
The question becomes, can this definition also include the possibility of rolling zero dice and then adjusting that result by any applicable modifiers? The wording here is already a bit odd since we already know that the term "Damage Roll" does not refer to exactly one single die roll as might be implied here. Despite the words that are used here (which should really be corrected via errata), we know that it's more of a "roll of the dice" rather than "a die roll".
Let's see how it's written within the actual rules since this Glossary entry is indeed referring us back to chapter 1 ("Damage and Healing"):
From Playing the Game --> Dice --> What are Dice For? --> Damage:
From Playing the Game --> Combat --> Making an Attack:
From Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Damage Rolls:
Note that the possibility of a fixed damage amount that doesn't use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun is mentioned WITHIN the section of the rules for Damage Rolls. To me, this implies that this is one of the possible forms that a damage roll can take.
Now, I'm sure that a lot of folks around here will claim that I am wrong about this. Hopefully they will do so by showing some support of their claim from the rules text.
If that’s how you want to play it at your table, that’s fine, but to me that seems like an immense amount of mental gymnastics to say that something that isn’t a roll is a roll. The new DMG has a whole little sidebar advising DMs against this kind of thing.
To me a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll implies it doesn't count as a damage roll and that's why they specified you don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a Blowgun. If it did count, you would.
As an example of noted otherwise, target of an Unarmed Strike takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 plus your Strength modifier.