A friend of mine is claiming that at level 5 true strike would apply two instances of agonizing blast, because you are dealing two separate "damage rolls". I am 100% certain he is wrong, but I haven't found any posts that even ask if that is how it is intended, so I would love some input from yall.
It's questionable if Agonizing Blast can even be used with true strike to begin with as it doesn't deal damage directly, rather it causes an weapon attack to occur and modifies that attack's damage instead.
That has been debated a few times, but even if you assume that it does apply, true strike is NOT doing two instances of damage, it is only doing one, so this question becomes irrelevant. At level 5, it adds an additional 1d6 on the already existing instance of damage, it is not a separate instance.
Here's how I see it: the key to knowing if Agonizing Blast applies to one of your Warlock cantrips is checking whether the cantrip involves a spell's damage rolls, as stated in the Eldritch Invocation:
Agonizing Blast Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
A friend of mine is claiming that at level 5 true strike would apply two instances of agonizing blast, because you are dealing two separate "damage rolls". I am 100% certain he is wrong, but I haven't found any posts that even ask if that is how it is intended, so I would love some input from yall.
There are some threads about Agonizing Blast combined with other spells, including Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade orTrue Strike, if they are interesting for you or your friend:
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
At the risk of opening an enormous can of worms, not everyone agrees with that.
N.B. I am not one of those people, but some people feel that True Strike Targets the creature attacked, meaning the roll to hit the creature is a Spell Attack Roll and all that entails (such as receiving the bonus for Rhythm-Makers Drum). If you subscribe to that school of thought that would also make the damage from the roll 'the spell's damage roll' and Agonizing Blast should probably add to it.
Again, that is not my interpretation of True Strike, but in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to point out that for the (not inconsequential) percentage of the populace who feel that way, it should add, but only once since there is only one damage roll (it just happens to involve multiple dice).
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
At the risk of opening an enormous can of worms, not everyone agrees with that.
N.B. I am not one of those people, but some people feel that True Strike Targets the creature attacked, meaning the roll to hit the creature is a Spell Attack Roll and all that entails (such as receiving the bonus for Rhythm-Makers Drum). If you subscribe to that school of thought that would also make the damage from the roll 'the spell's damage roll' and Agonizing Blast should probably add to it.
Again, that is not my interpretation of True Strike, but in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to point out that for the (not inconsequential) percentage of the populace who feel that way, it should add, but only once since there is only one damage roll (it just happens to involve multiple dice).
I don’t think this is a situation where there is one clearly right answer. I tend to think that, as the weapon attack is made as part of the spell, the damage is eligible for Agonising Blast, but I certainly wouldn’t claim that I am incontrovertibly correct.
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
At the risk of opening an enormous can of worms, not everyone agrees with that.
N.B. I am not one of those people, but some people feel that True Strike Targets the creature attacked, meaning the roll to hit the creature is a Spell Attack Roll and all that entails (such as receiving the bonus for Rhythm-Makers Drum). If you subscribe to that school of thought that would also make the damage from the roll 'the spell's damage roll' and Agonizing Blast should probably add to it.
Again, that is not my interpretation of True Strike, but in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to point out that for the (not inconsequential) percentage of the populace who feel that way, it should add, but only once since there is only one damage roll (it just happens to involve multiple dice).
Yeah, it's true not everyone agrees. I just shared in the thread how I see it after reading the rules. But I know it's a debated point, and not just here on DDB. If you check EN World, for example, it's the same.
His argument was that since True strike reads "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls" that the plurality of "rolls" implies that the additional 1d6 at level 5 is a separate instance of damage. He added that the first part is a weapon attack since it could be piercing while the second part is exclusively radiant as support for his claim. I frankly think hes insane for even trying to take it that way.
I will have to disagree with True Strike not being a spell attack and not stacking with AB
the material component of the cantrip TS is a weapon but you are casting a spell
the spell specifies that you are making the attack with the weapon used in the spells casting, you are not taking an attack action, you are taking the magic action
and the spell specifies that the damage is the spellcasting ability for the damage roll and that it can be radiant
this all pertains to it being a spell and not an attack action and so AB should apply
I certainly think the definition of “rolls” is debatable - is it a collective or is it multiples?
and I think it should be interpreted as a collective, only one instance of AG is added to the damage rolls
His argument was that since True strike reads "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls" that the plurality of "rolls" implies that the additional 1d6 at level 5 is a separate instance of damage. He added that the first part is a weapon attack since it could be piercing while the second part is exclusively radiant as support for his claim. I frankly think hes insane for even trying to take it that way.
I don’t think they are “insane” for thinking that the Agonising Blast bonus damage should apply to each roll of the damage dice: that’s what happens with Eldritch Blast. By level 17, you will be adding your Charisma modifier four times to the damage each time you cast Eldritch Blast (if every beam hits), so deciding that other damage cantrips benefit in the same way is not without reason. However, it does look likely that the “damage roll” refers to the total of the dice rolls for damage due to an attack: the section on •Damage Rolls” seems to imply as such, although doesn’t explicitly say so.
His argument was that since True strike reads "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls" that the plurality of "rolls" implies that the additional 1d6 at level 5 is a separate instance of damage. He added that the first part is a weapon attack since it could be piercing while the second part is exclusively radiant as support for his claim. I frankly think hes insane for even trying to take it that way.
I can see how they got there but not how it works. All dice rolled on an attack are part of the same damage roll, even if there are multiple instances of damage types within that roll.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
His argument was that since True strike reads "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls" that the plurality of "rolls" implies that the additional 1d6 at level 5 is a separate instance of damage.
Your friend needs to learn the rules tbh. "for the attack and damage rolls" uses plural because it is two rolls, no need to try to turn a single damage roll into multiple one just because there is more than one die rolled.
A friend of mine is claiming that at level 5 true strike would apply two instances of agonizing blast, because you are dealing two separate "damage rolls". I am 100% certain he is wrong, but I haven't found any posts that even ask if that is how it is intended, so I would love some input from yall.
One attack roll = one damage roll on a hit, regardless of how many different types of damage are done
For there to be separate damage rolls, there would have to be separate attacks
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Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Honest question: how do you get multiple damage rolls with Create Bonfire? Doesn't the next rule apply too?
Damage against Multiple Targets
When you create a damaging effect that forces two or more targets to make saving throws against it at the same time, roll the damage once for all the targets. For example, when a wizard casts Fireball, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Also, for Produce Flame, I have the same question since I don't see how to get multiple damage rolls. I must be missing something, I guess.
Here's how I see it: the key to knowing if Agonizing Blast applies to one of your Warlock cantrips is checking whether the cantrip involves a spell's damage rolls, as stated in the Eldritch Invocation:
Agonizing Blast Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
If the damage roll uses your spellcasting ability because of the spell, then it's the spell's damage roll. The same could be said of the additional +1-3d6 at levels 5, 11, and 17.
Are we sure that the friend wasn’t asking if the charisma bonus might be added twice? Once for the attack itself and once for AB? That is a reasonable interpretation.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Honest question: how do you get multiple damage rolls with Create Bonfire? Doesn't the next rule apply too?
Damage against Multiple Targets
When you create a damaging effect that forces two or more targets to make saving throws against it at the same time, roll the damage once for all the targets. For example, when a wizard casts Fireball, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Also, for Produce Flame, I have the same question since I don't see how to get multiple damage rolls. I must be missing something, I guess.
The answer is that they aren't at the same time, if you placed create bonfire in a choke point, and 3 creatures cross it on their own turns, each instance is at a different time. Produce Flame doesn't end when hurling fire, so you can hurl it again next round, altho functionally that isn't much different to recasting a cantrip like firebolt.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Honest question: how do you get multiple damage rolls with Create Bonfire? Doesn't the next rule apply too?
Damage against Multiple Targets
When you create a damaging effect that forces two or more targets to make saving throws against it at the same time, roll the damage once for all the targets. For example, when a wizard casts Fireball, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Also, for Produce Flame, I have the same question since I don't see how to get multiple damage rolls. I must be missing something, I guess.
The answer is that they aren't at the same time, if you placed create bonfire in a choke point, and 3 creatures cross it on their own turns, each instance is at a different time. Produce Flame doesn't end when hurling fire, so you can hurl it again next round, altho functionally that isn't much different to recasting a cantrip like firebolt.
I see. I was thinking about multiple rolls at the same time. Thanks!
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Rethinking this, I believe with Green-Flame Blade, the damage would be rolled twice starting at level 5+: once for the primary target and once for the secondary target.
At Higher Levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target on a hit, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier [...]
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A friend of mine is claiming that at level 5 true strike would apply two instances of agonizing blast, because you are dealing two separate "damage rolls". I am 100% certain he is wrong, but I haven't found any posts that even ask if that is how it is intended, so I would love some input from yall.
It's questionable if Agonizing Blast can even be used with true strike to begin with as it doesn't deal damage directly, rather it causes an weapon attack to occur and modifies that attack's damage instead.
That has been debated a few times, but even if you assume that it does apply, true strike is NOT doing two instances of damage, it is only doing one, so this question becomes irrelevant. At level 5, it adds an additional 1d6 on the already existing instance of damage, it is not a separate instance.
I agree with R3sistance.
Here's how I see it: the key to knowing if Agonizing Blast applies to one of your Warlock cantrips is checking whether the cantrip involves a spell's damage rolls, as stated in the Eldritch Invocation:
And the weapon attack in True Strike is not a spell's damage roll.
There are some threads about Agonizing Blast combined with other spells, including Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade orTrue Strike, if they are interesting for you or your friend:
At the risk of opening an enormous can of worms, not everyone agrees with that.
N.B. I am not one of those people, but some people feel that True Strike Targets the creature attacked, meaning the roll to hit the creature is a Spell Attack Roll and all that entails (such as receiving the bonus for Rhythm-Makers Drum). If you subscribe to that school of thought that would also make the damage from the roll 'the spell's damage roll' and Agonizing Blast should probably add to it.
Again, that is not my interpretation of True Strike, but in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to point out that for the (not inconsequential) percentage of the populace who feel that way, it should add, but only once since there is only one damage roll (it just happens to involve multiple dice).
I don’t think this is a situation where there is one clearly right answer. I tend to think that, as the weapon attack is made as part of the spell, the damage is eligible for Agonising Blast, but I certainly wouldn’t claim that I am incontrovertibly correct.
Yeah, it's true not everyone agrees. I just shared in the thread how I see it after reading the rules. But I know it's a debated point, and not just here on DDB. If you check EN World, for example, it's the same.
Among others, you and I were indeed discussing whether True Strike is a weapon attack or a spell attack: Is the attack from True Strike both a Weapon and Spell Attack?
His argument was that since True strike reads "The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls" that the plurality of "rolls" implies that the additional 1d6 at level 5 is a separate instance of damage. He added that the first part is a weapon attack since it could be piercing while the second part is exclusively radiant as support for his claim.
I frankly think hes insane for even trying to take it that way.
I will have to disagree with True Strike not being a spell attack and not stacking with AB
the material component of the cantrip TS is a weapon but you are casting a spell
the spell specifies that you are making the attack with the weapon used in the spells casting, you are not taking an attack action, you are taking the magic action
and the spell specifies that the damage is the spellcasting ability for the damage roll and that it can be radiant
this all pertains to it being a spell and not an attack action and so AB should apply
I certainly think the definition of “rolls” is debatable - is it a collective or is it multiples?
and I think it should be interpreted as a collective, only one instance of AG is added to the damage rolls
I don’t think they are “insane” for thinking that the Agonising Blast bonus damage should apply to each roll of the damage dice: that’s what happens with Eldritch Blast. By level 17, you will be adding your Charisma modifier four times to the damage each time you cast Eldritch Blast (if every beam hits), so deciding that other damage cantrips benefit in the same way is not without reason. However, it does look likely that the “damage roll” refers to the total of the dice rolls for damage due to an attack: the section on •Damage Rolls” seems to imply as such, although doesn’t explicitly say so.
I can see how they got there but not how it works. All dice rolled on an attack are part of the same damage roll, even if there are multiple instances of damage types within that roll.
Agonizing Blast can hit multiple times on Eldritch Blast or would hit all targets on an AoE cantrip like Sword Burst but only works once on basically every other cantrip. Eldritch Blast is special since it does multiple attacks, no other cantrip does, normally.
Create Bonfire and Produce Flame could well get multiple damage rolls and Magic Stone should get the bonus for each pebble.
Green Flame Blade is a bit special as its secondary damage is not rolled so it probably doesn't get it but Booming Blade should on its secondary damage.
Thunderclap does AOE damage as does Word of Radiance so one roll but potentially multiple hits.
Your friend needs to learn the rules tbh. "for the attack and damage rolls" uses plural because it is two rolls, no need to try to turn a single damage roll into multiple one just because there is more than one die rolled.
One attack roll = one damage roll on a hit, regardless of how many different types of damage are done
For there to be separate damage rolls, there would have to be separate attacks
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Honest question: how do you get multiple damage rolls with Create Bonfire? Doesn't the next rule apply too?
Also, for Produce Flame, I have the same question since I don't see how to get multiple damage rolls. I must be missing something, I guess.
If the damage roll uses your spellcasting ability because of the spell, then it's the spell's damage roll. The same could be said of the additional +1-3d6 at levels 5, 11, and 17.
Are we sure that the friend wasn’t asking if the charisma bonus might be added twice? Once for the attack itself and once for AB? That is a reasonable interpretation.
good points, I had forgotten about those,
The answer is that they aren't at the same time, if you placed create bonfire in a choke point, and 3 creatures cross it on their own turns, each instance is at a different time. Produce Flame doesn't end when hurling fire, so you can hurl it again next round, altho functionally that isn't much different to recasting a cantrip like firebolt.
I see. I was thinking about multiple rolls at the same time. Thanks!
Rethinking this, I believe with Green-Flame Blade, the damage would be rolled twice starting at level 5+: once for the primary target and once for the secondary target.