. . .The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. ) . . .
Because the character is multiclassed the Dexterity score must be a minimum of 13. You have to have at least a 13 in the Primary abilities of both the new class and the current class in order to multiclass. That's a minimum of +3 on Stealth (if we assume the character is Proficient). Expertise is available to all Rogues at first level, so if the character used expertise on Stealth their absolute minimum is +5.
On the other hand, if the character has a bare minimum Dex score and they put their Expertise to other skills (or even worse, didn't take Stealth as a Proficiency) they probably shouldn't be too surprised that they fail fairly often.
Used to be a character needed to meet a class ability score prerequisite for multiclassing, but after some debate most decided to ignore the prerequisites as it stifles the ability to multiclass optimally.
. . .The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. ) . . .
Because the character is multiclassed the Dexterity score must be a minimum of 13. You have to have at least a 13 in the Primary abilities of both the new class and the current class in order to multiclass. That's a minimum of +3 on Stealth (if we assume the character is Proficient). Expertise is available to all Rogues at first level, so if the character used expertise on Stealth their absolute minimum is +5.
On the other hand, if the character has a bare minimum Dex score and they put their Expertise to other skills (or even worse, didn't take Stealth as a Proficiency) they probably shouldn't be too surprised that they fail fairly often.
Used to be a character needed to meet a class ability score prerequisite for multiclassing, but after some debate most decided to ignore the prerequisites as it stifles the ability to multiclass optimally.
I mean, that's kinda the point of the prereqs...
Yea but when the ability to need the prereqs for Lv.1 selection was written out of the rules while multiclassing retained the ability to force the prereqs, and in the builder a toggle allows for the Feats and Multiclass prereqs to be disabled, it’s easy to customize a build and possibly miss the fact that without the prereqs, you can get unintended effects in early stage builds.
I mean if the ability to pick a lv 1 Fighter without meeting the requirement of a minimum Strength Score of 13 is allowed, so too must multclassing make the same exception. ( early days of the character builder had a feature that prevented a player from picking a class at level one if the class prereqs were not met, but it was dropped from the lv1 class section, and was given a toggle in multiclassing on the character builder home tab. )
Sometimes, players can miss things, and so can DM’s, adapt and adjust. ( or sit with player and rework the character, and call it training. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore.
Do you have a link to the Rogue character sheet? If not may we ask what multiclass level and stats are exactly?
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore.
Do you have a link to the Rogue character sheet? If not may we ask what multiclass level and stats are exactly?
I don't as he doesn't use d&d beyond. If I remember correctly he is a 5th level rogue, 2 Bard.
Out of curiosity, what's their Stealth mod? With prof I'd expect at least +5, expertise jumping that to +7. The former gives slightly better than even odds of hitting 15, and the latter put it at about 2 to 1 in favor. If that's the case then it's just a few bad rolls, and also why Rogues can attempt a Hide as a Bonus Action so it's viable to attempt throughout combat rather than "well, my attempt at a fancy opening didn't work, time to just stand and stab". If they're trying for it without any prof, then that's a fairly natural result of how they built their character- I suspect part of the point of adding the DC threshold is to avoid making it too easy for DEX focused characters without the prof to hide from enemies without Perception prof or high WIS (aka: a lot of them). If it's not working for your table, you're of course free to revert to 2014 stealth rules.
As for reverting to 2014, it seems using the 2014 rules exclusively just seems like a better idea at this point.
Out of curiosity, what's their Stealth mod? With prof I'd expect at least +5, expertise jumping that to +7. The former gives slightly better than even odds of hitting 15, and the latter put it at about 2 to 1 in favor. If that's the case then it's just a few bad rolls, and also why Rogues can attempt a Hide as a Bonus Action so it's viable to attempt throughout combat rather than "well, my attempt at a fancy opening didn't work, time to just stand and stab". If they're trying for it without any prof, then that's a fairly natural result of how they built their character- I suspect part of the point of adding the DC threshold is to avoid making it too easy for DEX focused characters without the prof to hide from enemies without Perception prof or high WIS (aka: a lot of them). If it's not working for your table, you're of course free to revert to 2014 stealth rules.
If he's multiclassed there's a good chance his Dex modifier is only +2, but still, +4 should give him even odds. I don't understand the 'no Expertise' though that the OP mentioned, since that's a level 1 ability.
If he did push his Dex up to the 16-17 ranged then by 5th level he should be able to swing a +10 (assuming Expertise in Stealth and a +4 Dex modifier). That should succeed around 75% of the time and that's without Advantage (and if he wants to be sneaky he probably wants to look for something that will give him Advantage such as a Cloak of Elvenkind).
However, the truth is that Stealth is no longer really the Bread and Butter for a Rogue. You only need a non-incapacitated ally within 5' of the target to do your Sneak Attack damage. Being next to the rest of the party normally renders Stealth rolls pretty much moot beyond that and moving away from the party so you can make your Stealth roll has a tendency to shorted the life expectancy of the rogue when things go sideways. If the player is happy not using Stealth then I don't think the OP needs to do anything.
I did miss that he should have gotten expertise at 1st level. He may have simply not put it into stealth... or he had really bad luck with those rolls. I'd say its his dice, but he gets a ton of crits.
I agree with the above, hiding isn't necessary for rogues anymore so don't worry about it. As long as they are managing to get sneak attacks someway or the other then they are being an effective rogue.
I'll have to agree, the need to hide has largely been wiped out, which is maybe what I'm witnessing. Though there are times when it seems advantageous to attempt to hide and he isn't taking it after failing the first two attempts. THis of course could be a player thing more so than a game mechanic thing. I was just curious if in general the requirement of a DC 15 (or whatever) left anyone else's PCs no longer attempting to hide.
I think it is fair to say that the glossary rule isn't an explicit definition. The first part is, but then it basically says anyone the DM says, which could be or not be a random guy also attacking the enemy. (Unless you assume combat must be two sided, but can be 3 or more sided.) An example of 3 sided combat is a summoned fiend who succeeds at their will save and is now attacking the closest enemy. This need not be the case, one could end up with the PCs v. Drow v. a pack of wild worgs who accidentally get loose during the encounter.
I think it is fair to say that the glossary rule isn't an explicit definition. The first part is, but then it basically says anyone the DM says, which could be or not be a random guy also attacking the enemy. (Unless you assume combat must be two sided, but can be 3 or more sided.) An example of 3 sided combat is a summoned fiend who succeeds at their will save and is now attacking the closest enemy. This need not be the case, one could end up with the PCs v. Drow v. a pack of wild worgs who accidentally get loose during the encounter.
A DM might rule, however, that in a three was melee, your character is too distracted to find such openings, cancelling out how distracted the enemy is. Hence the third party may or may not be an ally in that fight. And that may even change on a round by round basis if the DM thinks that makes more sense.
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore.
Do you have a link to the Rogue character sheet? If not may we ask what multiclass level and stats are exactly?
I don't as he doesn't use d&d beyond. If I remember correctly he is a 5th level rogue, 2 Bard.
Ok and finally what is DEX score and Stealth modifier total ?
I was just curious if in general the requirement of a DC 15 (or whatever) left anyone else's PCs no longer attempting to hide.
IMX the DC 15 isn't a deterrent factor, in 5E Hiding is rarely used in combat being mainly a defensive ability and a way to conceal yourself when not used offensively as a way to attack with advantage, essentially because it requires an action and some conditions to attempt it, where the outcome isn't guaranteed but contested. Outside combat it gets more use generally as a party or solo maneuver because action economy isn't as tight.
But it gets more reliably used when circumstances facilitate it somehow, usually because a monster, NPC or PC trait, feat or feature either allow Hiding as a bonus action instead of an action (Rogue, Gobliin etc),, lower the conditions to attempt it (Elf, Halfling, Skulker etc) or increase success rate (Proficiency, Expertise, Advantage etc)
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore.
Do you have a link to the Rogue character sheet? If not may we ask what multiclass level and stats are exactly?
I don't as he doesn't use d&d beyond. If I remember correctly he is a 5th level rogue, 2 Bard.
So if he has Expertise and a decent Dex (at least +2 modifier ) score since he's a Bard, he should have at least +8, meaning he only fails on a roll of 6 or lower. He should also have a subclass in Rogue at that point. An Arcane Trickster could have Enhance Ability (Advantage on Skill Checks for an hour), and a Soulknife could use their Psi-Bolstered Knack to increase the odds even more. Thief and Assassin wouldn't get those, but by that level, he should be maxing out his Dex and have a +4 modifier for those builds, giving him a +10 to Stealth, only failing on rolls of 4 or less.
In that case, it is just bad luck that he is failing his rolls.
If his Dex mod is lower and he didn't take Expertise, that's a separate issue.
Either way, I don't think modifying the DC is necessary.
If he is built to be stealthy, his roll should be in the 70-80% range, which seems plenty high. Lowering the DC would be like reducing the AC on enemies because the Fighter misses when he rolls a 4.
If he isn't built to be stealthy (as we have shown, it isn't a requirement. He could be more like a swashbuckler than a thief), lowering the DC would be an even worse choice. It would be like reducing the AC on enemies because the Wizard misses when he rolls an 8.
I agree with the above, hiding isn't necessary for rogues anymore so don't worry about it. As long as they are managing to get sneak attacks someway or the other then they are being an effective rogue.
I'll have to agree, the need to hide has largely been wiped out, which is maybe what I'm witnessing. Though there are times when it seems advantageous to attempt to hide and he isn't taking it after failing the first two attempts. THis of course could be a player thing more so than a game mechanic thing. I was just curious if in general the requirement of a DC 15 (or whatever) left anyone else's PCs no longer attempting to hide.
TBH, even in 2014 rules many of my rogues weren't attempting to hide all that often. They were using familiars or Steady Aim or Shadow Blade to get a guaranteed Adv on their attack roll instead. Really only my non-optimizer rogue players who chose to use a ranged weapon were still using the "move-hide-shoot" or "shoot-move-hide" strategy. The DC 15 definitely doesn't help and IMO is a bad change for both high and low levels, but with 2024 rules if you take Expertise in Stealth as a Rogue you're very likely to make the DC 15.
I mean, that's kinda the point of the prereqs...
Yea but when the ability to need the prereqs for Lv.1 selection was written out of the rules while multiclassing retained the ability to force the prereqs, and in the builder a toggle allows for the Feats and Multiclass prereqs to be disabled, it’s easy to customize a build and possibly miss the fact that without the prereqs, you can get unintended effects in early stage builds.
I mean if the ability to pick a lv 1 Fighter without meeting the requirement of a minimum Strength Score of 13 is allowed, so too must multclassing make the same exception. ( early days of the character builder had a feature that prevented a player from picking a class at level one if the class prereqs were not met, but it was dropped from the lv1 class section, and was given a toggle in multiclassing on the character builder home tab. )
Sometimes, players can miss things, and so can DM’s, adapt and adjust. ( or sit with player and rework the character, and call it training. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Do you have a link to the Rogue character sheet? If not may we ask what multiclass level and stats are exactly?
I don't as he doesn't use d&d beyond. If I remember correctly he is a 5th level rogue, 2 Bard.
As for reverting to 2014, it seems using the 2014 rules exclusively just seems like a better idea at this point.
I did miss that he should have gotten expertise at 1st level. He may have simply not put it into stealth... or he had really bad luck with those rolls. I'd say its his dice, but he gets a ton of crits.
I'll have to agree, the need to hide has largely been wiped out, which is maybe what I'm witnessing. Though there are times when it seems advantageous to attempt to hide and he isn't taking it after failing the first two attempts. THis of course could be a player thing more so than a game mechanic thing. I was just curious if in general the requirement of a DC 15 (or whatever) left anyone else's PCs no longer attempting to hide.
I think it is fair to say that the glossary rule isn't an explicit definition. The first part is, but then it basically says anyone the DM says, which could be or not be a random guy also attacking the enemy. (Unless you assume combat must be two sided, but can be 3 or more sided.) An example of 3 sided combat is a summoned fiend who succeeds at their will save and is now attacking the closest enemy. This need not be the case, one could end up with the PCs v. Drow v. a pack of wild worgs who accidentally get loose during the encounter.
A DM might rule, however, that in a three was melee, your character is too distracted to find such openings, cancelling out how distracted the enemy is. Hence the third party may or may not be an ally in that fight. And that may even change on a round by round basis if the DM thinks that makes more sense.
Ok and finally what is DEX score and Stealth modifier total ?
IMX the DC 15 isn't a deterrent factor, in 5E Hiding is rarely used in combat being mainly a defensive ability and a way to conceal yourself when not used offensively as a way to attack with advantage, essentially because it requires an action and some conditions to attempt it, where the outcome isn't guaranteed but contested. Outside combat it gets more use generally as a party or solo maneuver because action economy isn't as tight.
But it gets more reliably used when circumstances facilitate it somehow, usually because a monster, NPC or PC trait, feat or feature either allow Hiding as a bonus action instead of an action (Rogue, Gobliin etc),, lower the conditions to attempt it (Elf, Halfling, Skulker etc) or increase success rate (Proficiency, Expertise, Advantage etc)
So if he has Expertise and a decent Dex (at least +2 modifier ) score since he's a Bard, he should have at least +8, meaning he only fails on a roll of 6 or lower. He should also have a subclass in Rogue at that point. An Arcane Trickster could have Enhance Ability (Advantage on Skill Checks for an hour), and a Soulknife could use their Psi-Bolstered Knack to increase the odds even more. Thief and Assassin wouldn't get those, but by that level, he should be maxing out his Dex and have a +4 modifier for those builds, giving him a +10 to Stealth, only failing on rolls of 4 or less.
In that case, it is just bad luck that he is failing his rolls.
If his Dex mod is lower and he didn't take Expertise, that's a separate issue.
Either way, I don't think modifying the DC is necessary.
If he is built to be stealthy, his roll should be in the 70-80% range, which seems plenty high. Lowering the DC would be like reducing the AC on enemies because the Fighter misses when he rolls a 4.
If he isn't built to be stealthy (as we have shown, it isn't a requirement. He could be more like a swashbuckler than a thief), lowering the DC would be an even worse choice. It would be like reducing the AC on enemies because the Wizard misses when he rolls an 8.
TBH, even in 2014 rules many of my rogues weren't attempting to hide all that often. They were using familiars or Steady Aim or Shadow Blade to get a guaranteed Adv on their attack roll instead. Really only my non-optimizer rogue players who chose to use a ranged weapon were still using the "move-hide-shoot" or "shoot-move-hide" strategy. The DC 15 definitely doesn't help and IMO is a bad change for both high and low levels, but with 2024 rules if you take Expertise in Stealth as a Rogue you're very likely to make the DC 15.
Personally I think the DC adds a bit of verisimilitude.