The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
I don't think most feature that allow a creature to attack on its turn do. Summon Fey doesn't. You command the creature, but the assumption is that it attacks on its turn.
The spell Command for example specify the target follow the command on it's next turn, indicating a timing in the future.
EDIT: The name quick attack makes me think it happens immediately. Even so, I don't think this feature would allow the familiar the benefit of the Multiattack action anyway, since Multiattack is not the same as the attack action. Since there's only one attack, there's no problem with moving between attacks.
@Plaguescarred already answered in this thread, but I wanted to leave the relevant rules here:
Multiattack Some creatures can make more than one attack when they take the Attack action. Such creatures have the Multiattack entry in the “Actions” section of their stat block. This entry details the attacks a creature can make, as well as any additional abilities it can use, as part of the Attack action.
Attack [Action] [...] Moving between Attacks. If you move on your turn and have a feature, such as Extra Attack, that gives you more than one attack as part of the Attack action, you can use some or all of that movement to move between those attacks.
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
I don't think most feature that allow a creature to attack on its turn do. Summon Fey doesn't. You command the creature, but the assumption is that it attacks on its turn.
The spell Command for example specify the target follow the command on it's next turn, indicating a timing in the future.
Command isn't the same type of relationship. The point of that spell is to use another creature's turn against them, whereas almost all cases where you are issuing a command to a companion, they have their own turn and the assumption is that they act on their turn. Summon fey is a much more apt comparison. But even a beast master ranger works the way I describe, except the beast's turn happens to be during your turn.
Command isn't the same type of relationship. The point of that spell is to use another creature's turn agains them, whereas almost all cases where you are issuing a command to a companion, they have their own turn and the assumption is that they act on their turn. Summon fey is a much more apt comparison. But even a beast master ranger works the way I describe, except the beast's turn happens to be during your turn.
I think both of you make accurate points here. And it's a matter of deciding whether the investment of the chain master uses the timing from Find Familiar that says familiars act on their own turn, or whether it uses the rule from the pact of the chain that says it acts immediately as a reaction. I feel like it uses the pact of the chain timing, but I cannot back that up explicitly and what you say also stands up to scrutiny, so...
It may be wrong (probably wrong) but I think that I am going to go with sacrifice an Attack to have the Familliar make one attack as a reaction on my turn. Then as a Bonus Action I command the Familiar to take the Attack Action on its turn. That seems to flow better in my mind.
You're all going to hate me for this, but I have changed my mind again. Here's how I think it works now, and this is awesome. Let's assume the warlock has an initiative of 15 and the familiar has an initiative of 10, acting after the warlock.
On the warlock's turn, they take the attack action and forego one of their attacks to make the pseudodragon make an attack using its reaction. (pact of the chain)
The psueudodragon immediately makes one attack. It cannot use multiattack here.
Still on the warlock's turn, they use their bonus action to command the psueododragon to attack the target (investment of the chain master)
On the pseudodragon's turn, it gets its reaction back.
The pseudodragon follows its command to attack the target using the attack action, which allows it to use multiattack and also move between attacks.
I don't think it's fair to compare Find Familiar to Summon Fey, or Summon Undead, etc. Because contrary to Find Familiar, which states that the familiar has its own free will and can act without directions, these other summoning spells explicit mention that the summoned creatures cannot act without their summoner's directions. So the logic behind their behavior is completely different.
I have to admit that if we read the rules as written, TarodNet seems to be right. But from an logical point of view, the idea that a quasit with sharp claws suddenly forgets that it can use them, while otherwise still have full control of itself, just because its master can't tell it to use them... seems completely absurd. I mean, how am I supposed to RP that?
I have to admit that if we read the rules as written, TarodNet seems to be right.
Yeah, nothing TarodNet wrote runs afoul of the rules. So that means they seem to be right :) At the same time, nothing about the other way runs afoul of the rules either, and they contradict each other. Since the investment of the chain master does not explicitly specify the timing of the familiar's attack, it's up to us to decide whether we are meant to use the timing from the pact of the chain or the timing from the spell. To me, the spell does a better job accounting for the familiar's behavior. Others would disagree.
I don't think it's fair to compare Find Familiar to Summon Fey, or Summon Undead, etc. Because contrary to Find Familiar, which states that the familiar has its own free will and can act without directions, these other summoning spells explicit mention that the summoned creatures cannot act without their summoner's directions. So the logic behind their behavior is completely different.
I have to admit that if we read the rules as written, TarodNet seems to be right. But from an logical point of view, the idea that a quasit with sharp claws suddenly forgets that it can use them, while otherwise still have full control of itself, just because its master can't tell it to use them... seems completely absurd. I mean, how am I supposed to RP that?
It's not a quasit: it's a replica made from a spirit.
I know, but the only significant implication of that is that it's not chaotic evil and will not try to murderize every NPC just for fun... It still has free will, it still has sharp claws, and it still can use them to kill things when I tell it to. So the idea that it would just run around and use its other abilities but refrain from attacking because I'm not telling it to feels kinda ridiculous. And I don't think this was intended, even though it's technically what the rules suggest.
I know, but the only significant implication of that is that it's not chaotic evil and will not try to murderize every NPC just for fun... It still has free will, it still has sharp claws, and it still can use them to kill things when I tell it to. So the idea that it would just run around and use its other abilities but refrain from attacking because I'm not telling it to feels kinda ridiculous. And I don't think this was intended, even though it's technically what the rules suggest.
It definitely is intended. If you want your familiar to be able to make an attack then you have to be a Chainlock and you have to spend a resource to do it, it is a balance thing that was just as present in the 2014 rules as it is in the 2024 rules.
On the warlock's turn, they take the attack action and forego one of their attacks to make the pseudodragon make an attack using its reaction. (pact of the chain)
The psueudodragon immediately makes one attack. It cannot use multiattack here.
Still on the warlock's turn, they use their bonus action to command the psueododragon to attack the target (investment of the chain master)
On the pseudodragon's turn, it gets its reaction back.
The pseudodragon follows its command to attack the target using the attack action, which allows it to use multiattack and also move between attacks.
IMO 1 - 4 is clearly correct. 5 is the contentious one, i.e does it attack directly (and thus no movement) or does it execute the command on its own turn (and thus benefits from all other things it can do on its own turn)?
As I posted a few hours ago I did read the rule as it having to make the Attack Action directly but having read through this again I'm coming round to the idea that it waits until its own turn. Most all features that gives you a pet or similar (summon spells, Artificer, Wildfire Druid and so on) just says that they are limited in what actions they can take on their turn unless you command them so that seems to be the general idea of how the timing of it works. Investment of the Chain Master doesn't specify a timing but the Find Familiar spell does say that it acts on its own turn so that seems to follow the same principle so who am I to argue any more then necessary. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It may be wrong (probably wrong) but I think that I am going to go with sacrifice an Attack to have the Familliar make one attack as a reaction on my turn. Then as a Bonus Action I command the Familiar to take the Attack Action on its turn. That seems to flow better in my mind.
I think this is correct. I can see the argument either way regarding the Attack action on the familiar's turn versus yours, but there is no point in expending a Reaction if they are going to act on their turn regardless. Having the full range of movement in concert with the Attack action probably makes your interpretation the best scenario as well.
Not having played a Pact of Chain Warlock, I can't really see the familiar Attack options being that great after low levels. Threats scale and familiar abilities don't or am I missing something?
There are some use cases. Even at high level, there are still some enemies that aren't immune to poisoned and paralyzed status. You can have a quasit attack and poison a target, then use Summon Undead (Putrid) attack and paralyze them.
Perhaps they intended Quick Attack to just be a command for your familiar to take the Attack action on it's next turn, when it otherwise can't, similar to the way a beast companion which also obey your commands to act. But as written, compared to a beast companion acting on your turn, a familiar act independently on it's own turn and doesn't say the only action it takes is the Dodge action unless you take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action, a familiar can technically take any actions on it's turn, it just can't attack.
So if it was their goal, wording choice brings some confusion.
The spell Command for example specify the target follow the command on it's next turn, indicating a timing in the future.
@Plaguescarred already answered in this thread, but I wanted to leave the relevant rules here:
Command isn't the same type of relationship. The point of that spell is to use another creature's turn against them, whereas almost all cases where you are issuing a command to a companion, they have their own turn and the assumption is that they act on their turn. Summon fey is a much more apt comparison. But even a beast master ranger works the way I describe, except the beast's turn happens to be during your turn.
I think both of you make accurate points here. And it's a matter of deciding whether the investment of the chain master uses the timing from Find Familiar that says familiars act on their own turn, or whether it uses the rule from the pact of the chain that says it acts immediately as a reaction. I feel like it uses the pact of the chain timing, but I cannot back that up explicitly and what you say also stands up to scrutiny, so...
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Neither says they act immediately. Maybe both are on the familiars turn.
It may be wrong (probably wrong) but I think that I am going to go with sacrifice an Attack to have the Familliar make one attack as a reaction on my turn. Then as a Bonus Action I command the Familiar to take the Attack Action on its turn. That seems to flow better in my mind.
Sorry if that derailed the thread.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You're all going to hate me for this, but I have changed my mind again. Here's how I think it works now, and this is awesome. Let's assume the warlock has an initiative of 15 and the familiar has an initiative of 10, acting after the warlock.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Now if only there were as many Pact of the Chain upgrades as there are Pact of the Blade
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Not at all. This was part of an enjoyable discussion. Thanks for the debate to you and the other folks
Unfortunately, the pre-release video doesn't help us too much (around 7:25): New Warlock | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D
PS. I'm sticking to my opinion.
I don't think it's fair to compare Find Familiar to Summon Fey, or Summon Undead, etc.
Because contrary to Find Familiar, which states that the familiar has its own free will and can act without directions, these other summoning spells explicit mention that the summoned creatures cannot act without their summoner's directions. So the logic behind their behavior is completely different.
I have to admit that if we read the rules as written, TarodNet seems to be right. But from an logical point of view, the idea that a quasit with sharp claws suddenly forgets that it can use them, while otherwise still have full control of itself, just because its master can't tell it to use them... seems completely absurd. I mean, how am I supposed to RP that?
Yeah, nothing TarodNet wrote runs afoul of the rules. So that means they seem to be right :) At the same time, nothing about the other way runs afoul of the rules either, and they contradict each other. Since the investment of the chain master does not explicitly specify the timing of the familiar's attack, it's up to us to decide whether we are meant to use the timing from the pact of the chain or the timing from the spell. To me, the spell does a better job accounting for the familiar's behavior. Others would disagree.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's not a quasit: it's a replica made from a spirit.
I know, but the only significant implication of that is that it's not chaotic evil and will not try to murderize every NPC just for fun...
It still has free will, it still has sharp claws, and it still can use them to kill things when I tell it to.
So the idea that it would just run around and use its other abilities but refrain from attacking because I'm not telling it to feels kinda ridiculous.
And I don't think this was intended, even though it's technically what the rules suggest.
It definitely is intended. If you want your familiar to be able to make an attack then you have to be a Chainlock and you have to spend a resource to do it, it is a balance thing that was just as present in the 2014 rules as it is in the 2024 rules.
Well this took off more than I expected. :)
IMO 1 - 4 is clearly correct. 5 is the contentious one, i.e does it attack directly (and thus no movement) or does it execute the command on its own turn (and thus benefits from all other things it can do on its own turn)?
As I posted a few hours ago I did read the rule as it having to make the Attack Action directly but having read through this again I'm coming round to the idea that it waits until its own turn.
Most all features that gives you a pet or similar (summon spells, Artificer, Wildfire Druid and so on) just says that they are limited in what actions they can take on their turn unless you command them so that seems to be the general idea of how the timing of it works. Investment of the Chain Master doesn't specify a timing but the Find Familiar spell does say that it acts on its own turn so that seems to follow the same principle so who am I to argue any more then necessary. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Haha yeah, I'm not gonna die on that hill. I think it's right, but that's definitely the point I'll concede first.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think this is correct. I can see the argument either way regarding the Attack action on the familiar's turn versus yours, but there is no point in expending a Reaction if they are going to act on their turn regardless. Having the full range of movement in concert with the Attack action probably makes your interpretation the best scenario as well.
Not having played a Pact of Chain Warlock, I can't really see the familiar Attack options being that great after low levels. Threats scale and familiar abilities don't or am I missing something?
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There are some use cases. Even at high level, there are still some enemies that aren't immune to poisoned and paralyzed status. You can have a quasit attack and poison a target, then use Summon Undead (Putrid) attack and paralyze them.
So if it was their goal, wording choice brings some confusion.
If it's the case, TarodNet was right then the familiar should be able to move between Multiattack, as well as before or after.