Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
Why?
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
It is, in fact, a rule. Actions and Bonus Actions are defined as occurring on your turn. Reactions are the only thing that can typically happen outside of your turn.
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
Why?
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
It is, in fact, a rule. Actions and Bonus Actions are defined as occurring on your turn. Reactions are the only thing that can typically happen outside of your turn.
In the Ready Action rules, the line in blue refers to taking one of the actions described in Chapter 1 (or any other allowed by the DM or your features):
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
Actions
When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game’s main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary. [...]
By using the Ready action on your turn, you're turning whatever you decide you want to do into a Reaction, not an Action. That's literally the entire point of the Ready action. Again, if you were taking the Dash action it would say so, not "move up to your Speed in response" to the trigger [...]
A couple of honest questions.
Would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Help action to administer first aid if a teammate falls in battle? Since Help is the action to use when the Reaction triggers.
Or would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Magic action to use Hand of Healing to restore a number of Hit Points if a teammate takes damage? Again, Magic is the action your readying and the one to use when the Reaction triggers.
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
Why?
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
It is, in fact, a rule. Actions and Bonus Actions are defined as occurring on your turn. Reactions are the only thing that can typically happen outside of your turn.
Typically.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
Would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Help action to administer first aid if a teammate falls in battle? Since Help is the action to use when the Reaction triggers.
Or would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Magic action to use Hand of Healing to restore a number of Hit Points if a teammate takes damage? Again, Magic is the action your readying and the one to use when the Reaction triggers.
This is derailing the conversation, Tarod, but I already answered this question
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
By using the Ready action on your turn, you're turning whatever you decide you want to do into a Reaction, not an Action. That's literally the entire point of the Ready action. Again, if you were taking the Dash action it would say so, not "move up to your Speed in response" to the trigger
And before this gets sidetracked any further -- Investment of the Chain Master says nothing about anyone using their reaction. You use a Bonus Action to issue a command to your familiar, which it can only take on its own turn, because the invocation doesn't say otherwise. It would need to include a specific exception for it to work any other way
The examples never mention specific actions, just natural language descriptions of the activity. This does raise related questions.
Can a familiar ready an action to do what its master commands it to do?
Can a familiar ready an action to Attack if commanded to when it cannot normally use that action?
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
Why?
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
It is, in fact, a rule. Actions and Bonus Actions are defined as occurring on your turn. Reactions are the only thing that can typically happen outside of your turn.
Typically.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
Would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Help action to administer first aid if a teammate falls in battle? Since Help is the action to use when the Reaction triggers.
Or would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Magic action to use Hand of Healing to restore a number of Hit Points if a teammate takes damage? Again, Magic is the action your readying and the one to use when the Reaction triggers.
This is derailing the conversation, Tarod, but I already answered this question
Ok, ok, you're right. Sorry... but also thank you, Anton. I didn't want to be a stubborn guy.
EDIT: I think the possible options have already been given. As for me, I'm leaving for other adventures threads!
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
A Bonus Action is a special action that you can take on the same turn that you take an action. You can’t take more than one Bonus Action on a turn, and you have a Bonus Action to take only if a rule explicitly says so. See also chapter 1 (“Actions”).
and also
You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
Typically there is nothing overriding the timing. These are General Rules and so Actions and Bonus Actions only occur on your turn. I don't want to rule out some spell, ability, or other effects that might create exceptions that would supersede the general rule. Thus, I said "typically".
If it's intended for the familiar to take the Attack action when the Warlock use Quick Attack, it would then be a case of General vs Specific
General Rule: On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features.
Specific Rule: As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.
If it's intended for the familiar to take the Attack action when the Warlock use Quick Attack, it would then be a case of General vs Specific
General Rule: On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features.
Specific Rule: As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.
While this is true, I think you can even do one better than that. The baseline rule isn't only the PHB rule that says you can take an action on your turn (although that certainly applies). I would say the baseline rule in this case is the spell description for find familiar that lays out the way you issue command to your familiar, and then they act on their own turn. The pact of the chain is a prerequisite for this invocation, but it is not explicit that this invocation borrows the familiar's reaction timing from the pact feature. In my opinion, we should take all the guidance for the invocation from the invocation itself and from the spell that governs the activities of the familiar. And of course, that would include the general rule for taking actions on your turn that is laid out in the PHB like you say, and then reinforced in the spell description.
I also feel that calling this feature Quick Attack doesn't do it any favors. It's quick in the sense that it's a bonus action on the warlock's side, but it's also delayed in the sense that the command waits for the familiar's turn. Unless, of course, it doesn't. 😉
While this is true, I think you can even do one better than that. The baseline rule isn't only the PHB rule that says you can take an action on your turn (although that certainly applies). I would say the baseline rule in this case is the spell description for find familiar that lays out the way you issue command to your familiar, and then they act on their own turn. The pact of the chain is a prerequisite for this invocation, but it is not explicit that this invocation borrows the familiar's reaction timing from the pact feature. In my opinion, we should take all the guidance for the invocation from the invocation itself and from the spell that governs the activities of the familiar. And of course, that would include the general rule for taking actions on your turn that is laid out in the PHB like you say, and then reinforced in the spell description.
I also feel that calling this feature Quick Attack doesn't do it any favors. It's quick in the sense that it's a bonus action on the warlock's side, but it's also delayed in the sense that the command waits for the familiar's turn. Unless, of course, it doesn't. 😉
(but I believe it does)
I may be wrong, but the name "Quick Attack" seems more like a Pokemon reference or joke than directions on how the feature works. I think the name is just a name, kinda like how Chill Touch doesn't do Cold Damage in spite of its name suggesting that it does.
I may be wrong, but the name "Quick Attack" seems more like a Pokemon reference or joke than directions on how the feature works. I think the name is just a name, kinda like how Chill Touch doesn't do Cold Damage in spite of its name suggesting that it does.
Chill Touch had a nice wording in AD&D 2e:
When the caster completes this spell, a blue glow encompasses his hand. This energy attacks the life force of any living creature upon which the wizard makes a successful melee attack. The touched creature must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or suffer 1d4 points of damage and lose 1 point of Strength. If the save is successful, the creature remains unharmed. Creatures not rated for Strength suffer a -1 penalty to their attack rolls for every other successful touch. Lost Strength returns at the rate of 1 point per hour. Damage must be cured magically or healed naturally.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
A Bonus Action is a special action that you can take on the same turn that you take an action. You can’t take more than one Bonus Action on a turn, and you have a Bonus Action to take only if a rule explicitly says so. See also chapter 1 (“Actions”).
and also
You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
Typically there is nothing overriding the timing. These are General Rules and so Actions and Bonus Actions only occur on your turn. I don't want to rule out some spell, ability, or other effects that might create exceptions that would supersede the general rule. Thus, I said "typically".
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
Why?
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
There is something overriding the timing. The investment of the chain invocation. (note: I'm not claiming that's how the invocation works, I originally was just pointing out it wouldn't require a reaction if it was)
There is something overriding the timing. The investment of the chain invocation. (note: I'm not claiming that's how the invocation works, I originally was just pointing out it wouldn't require a reaction if it was)
There needs to be an explicit contradiction, not just the absence of supporting evidence. In this case, the general rule from find familiar that governs when familiars take their actions still applies.
There is something overriding the timing. The investment of the chain invocation. (note: I'm not claiming that's how the invocation works, I originally was just pointing out it wouldn't require a reaction if it was)
There needs to be an explicit contradiction, not just the absence of supporting evidence. In this case, the general rule from find familiar that governs when familiars take their actions still applies.
I also feel that calling this feature Quick Attack doesn't do it any favors. It's quick in the sense that it's a bonus action on the warlock's side, but it's also delayed in the sense that the command waits for the familiar's turn. Unless, of course, it doesn't. 😉
Just read the ability as "Quick! Attack!" and the problem is solved.
It is, in fact, a rule. Actions and Bonus Actions are defined as occurring on your turn. Reactions are the only thing that can typically happen outside of your turn.
How to add Tooltips.
Typically.
A couple of honest questions.
Would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Help action to administer first aid if a teammate falls in battle? Since Help is the action to use when the Reaction triggers.
Or would you say no to a player who wants to Ready the Magic action to use Hand of Healing to restore a number of Hit Points if a teammate takes damage? Again, Magic is the action your readying and the one to use when the Reaction triggers.
Typically, in this context, means always unless a different timing is explicitly mentioned. No timing is mentioned in Investment of the Chain Master so it uses typical timing.
How to add Tooltips.
This is derailing the conversation, Tarod, but I already answered this question
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The examples never mention specific actions, just natural language descriptions of the activity. This does raise related questions.
How to add Tooltips.
RAW means rules as written. Not rules as heavily implied.
Yes.
RAW, Actions occur on your turn.
RAW, You only have Bonus Actions on your turn.
Typically there is nothing overriding the timing.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
How to add Tooltips.
What?
Ok, ok, you're right. Sorry... but also thank you, Anton. I didn't want to be a stubborn guy.
EDIT: I think the possible options have already been given. As for me, I'm leaving for other
adventuresthreads!RAW, Actions occur on your turn. See Action.
RAW, You only have Bonus Actions on your turn. See Bonus Action and Bonus Actions in Chapter 1.
and also
Typically there is nothing overriding the timing. These are General Rules and so Actions and Bonus Actions only occur on your turn. I don't want to rule out some spell, ability, or other effects that might create exceptions that would supersede the general rule. Thus, I said "typically".
Therefore, your statement below was incorrect:
How to add Tooltips.
If it's intended for the familiar to take the Attack action when the Warlock use Quick Attack, it would then be a case of General vs Specific
While this is true, I think you can even do one better than that. The baseline rule isn't only the PHB rule that says you can take an action on your turn (although that certainly applies). I would say the baseline rule in this case is the spell description for find familiar that lays out the way you issue command to your familiar, and then they act on their own turn. The pact of the chain is a prerequisite for this invocation, but it is not explicit that this invocation borrows the familiar's reaction timing from the pact feature. In my opinion, we should take all the guidance for the invocation from the invocation itself and from the spell that governs the activities of the familiar. And of course, that would include the general rule for taking actions on your turn that is laid out in the PHB like you say, and then reinforced in the spell description.
I also feel that calling this feature Quick Attack doesn't do it any favors. It's quick in the sense that it's a bonus action on the warlock's side, but it's also delayed in the sense that the command waits for the familiar's turn. Unless, of course, it doesn't. 😉
(but I believe it does)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I may be wrong, but the name "Quick Attack" seems more like a Pokemon reference or joke than directions on how the feature works. I think the name is just a name, kinda like how Chill Touch doesn't do Cold Damage in spite of its name suggesting that it does.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Chill Touch had a nice wording in AD&D 2e:
There is something overriding the timing. The investment of the chain invocation. (note: I'm not claiming that's how the invocation works, I originally was just pointing out it wouldn't require a reaction if it was)
There needs to be an explicit contradiction, not just the absence of supporting evidence. In this case, the general rule from find familiar that governs when familiars take their actions still applies.
(emphasis mine)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Why are you saying this in response to me saying I'm not making a claim?
Just read the ability as "Quick! Attack!" and the problem is solved.
How to add Tooltips.