It's not explicit in the 2024 rules exactly, but there is a strong implication that capital-A Actions can only be taken on your turn
On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features.
So "command the familiar to take the Attack action" would have to happen on the familiar's turn, not your own
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There are some use cases. Even at high level, there are still some enemies that aren't immune to poisoned and paralyzed status. You can have a quasit attack and poison a target, then use Summon Undead (Putrid) attack and paralyze them.
But the Familiar's save DC and attack bonus are going to be really low, right? Nothing improves it?
Isn't Ready letting you choose an action you will take in response to a trigger?
Yes. And? You take the Ready action on your turn. You choose what will happen with it on your turn. If you're casting a spell, it explicitly says you cast that spell on your turn
The entire point of Ready is "take an action on your turn, but store it for later use"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn't Ready letting you choose an action you will take in response to a trigger?
Yes. And? You take the Ready action on your turn. You choose what will happen with it on your turn. If you're casting a spell, it explicitly says you cast that spell on your turn
The entire point of Ready is "take an action on your turn, but store it for later use"
To the exception of casting spells that done on your turn and held, action you will take are normally on other's turn on purpose. See Sage Advice Compendium also indicate.
Isn't Ready letting you choose an action you will take in response to a trigger?
Yes. And? You take the Ready action on your turn. You choose what will happen with it on your turn. If you're casting a spell, it explicitly says you cast that spell on your turn
The entire point of Ready is "take an action on your turn, but store it for later use"
To the exception of casting spells that done on your turn and held, action you will take are normally on other's turn on purpose. See Sage Advice Compendium also indicate.
You are not taking a capital-A Action outside your turn, you are taking your Reaction. The Ready action sets what lower-case-a action the Reaction will be. Note that even the examples given say you can move up to your Speed or pull a lever -- not take the Dash or Utilize actions
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's not explicit in the 2024 rules exactly, but there is a strong implication that capital-A Actions can only be taken on your turn
On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features.
So "command the familiar to take the Attack action" would have to happen on the familiar's turn, not your own
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
I was offering another counter-argument to the idea that the familiar could make an attack on the warlock's turn, if the warlock used their Bonus Action
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I was offering another counter-argument to the idea that the familiar could make an attack on the warlock's turn, if the warlock used their Bonus Action
I suppose it's not completely off-base to suggest that the warlock takes a bonus action to command the familiar to take the attack action as a reaction--a variation on what is laid out in the pact of the chain master... but that feels like a lot of unspoken assumptions about things that really SHOULD be laid out in the invocation feature. I give credit for considering alternatives, but that one does not sit well with me at all.
I have to admit that if we read the rules as written, TarodNet seems to be right.
Yeah, nothing TarodNet wrote runs afoul of the rules. So that means they seem to be right :)
Thanks, mate! :)
At the same time, nothing about the other way runs afoul of the rules either, and they contradict each other. Since the investment of the chain master does not explicitly specify the timing of the familiar's attack, it's up to us to decide whether we are meant to use the timing from the pact of the chain or the timing from the spell. To me, the spell does a better job accounting for the familiar's behavior. Others would disagree.
Yeah, I get the other point of view too.
In my case, since I don't see any references to turns, I still think the Familiar's attacks happen immediately.
EDIT: That being said, just have fun in your games and pick what your heart DM wants :D
You are not taking a capital-A Action outside your turn, you are taking your Reaction. The Ready action sets what lower-case-a action the Reaction will be. Note that even the examples given say you can move up to your Speed or pull a lever -- not take the Dash or Utilize actions
SAC and Devs beg to differ.
@JeremyECrawford The Ready action lets you ready any action you can take, including Attack, but Extra Attack is on your turn.
Can an opportunity attack be used to make a grapple or a shove?
In the Ready Action rules, the line in blue refers to taking one of the actions described in Chapter 1 (or any other allowed by the DM or your features):
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
Actions
When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game’s main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary. [...]
You are not taking a capital-A Action outside your turn, you are taking your Reaction. The Ready action sets what lower-case-a action the Reaction will be. Note that even the examples given say you can move up to your Speed or pull a lever -- not take the Dash or Utilize actions
SAC and Devs beg to differ.
@JeremyECrawford The Ready action lets you ready any action you can take, including Attack, but Extra Attack is on your turn.
Can an opportunity attack be used to make a grapple or a shove?
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You are not taking a capital-A Action outside your turn, you are taking your Reaction. The Ready action sets what lower-case-a action the Reaction will be. Note that even the examples given say you can move up to your Speed or pull a lever -- not take the Dash or Utilize actions
SAC and Devs beg to differ.
@JeremyECrawford The Ready action lets you ready any action you can take, including Attack, but Extra Attack is on your turn.
Can an opportunity attack be used to make a grapple or a shove?
This Sage Advice is no longer valid. Grapple is now an option when you make a Unarmed Strike so it is no longer a dedicated option of the Attack.
In 2014, Grapple explicitly required the Attack action. In 2024, it can be any time (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction, etc) that you could make an Unarmed Strike. I believe this change was explicitly highlighted in the Monk preview video where Jeremy Crawford mentioned swapping one of your Flurries for a Grapple.
In the Ready Action rules, the line in blue refers to taking one of the actions described in Chapter 1 (or any other allowed by the DM or your features):
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
Actions
When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game’s main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary. [...]
By using the Ready action on your turn, you're turning whatever you decide you want to do into a Reaction, not an Action. That's literally the entire point of the Ready action. Again, if you were taking the Dash action it would say so, not "move up to your Speed in response" to the trigger
And before this gets sidetracked any further -- Investment of the Chain Master says nothing about anyone using their reaction. You use a Bonus Action to issue a command to your familiar, which it can only take on its own turn, because the invocation doesn't say otherwise. It would need to include a specific exception for it to work any other way
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And before this gets sidetracked any further -- Investment of the Chain Master says nothing about anyone using their reaction. You use a Bonus Action to issue a command to your familiar, which it can only take on its own turn, because the invocation doesn't say otherwise. It would need to include a specific exception for it to work any other way
And that really is the problem here, the invocation doesn't specify the timing either way. It doesn't say that it takes the action on its own turn nor does it say that it takes it immediately, it is silent on the timing. I've come around to the thinking that the normal action economy should apply and thus it would have to take the action on its own turn but it isn't crystal clear IMO.
I think that a main source of the unclarity is that the rule isn't placed in the rule for the creature (like pretty much all other pet-like features do) but in a completely different place and thus it uses its own unique wording that focuses on the PC's action economy while forgetting how it affects the Familiar.
I also think that they once again suffer from their crappy naming philosophy, the feature is called "Quick Attack" and there really is nothing "quick" at all about making a command that the Familiar executes at some later point in the initiative order during its own turn.
It's not explicit in the 2024 rules exactly, but there is a strong implication that capital-A Actions can only be taken on your turn
So "command the familiar to take the Attack action" would have to happen on the familiar's turn, not your own
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn't Ready letting you choose an action you will take in response to a trigger?
But the Familiar's save DC and attack bonus are going to be really low, right? Nothing improves it?
How to add Tooltips.
Yes. And? You take the Ready action on your turn. You choose what will happen with it on your turn. If you're casting a spell, it explicitly says you cast that spell on your turn
The entire point of Ready is "take an action on your turn, but store it for later use"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To the exception of casting spells that done on your turn and held, action you will take are normally on other's turn on purpose. See Sage Advice Compendium also indicate.
Well if it's not using its reaction, then yeah, any action it takes would have to be on its turn.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You are not taking a capital-A Action outside your turn, you are taking your Reaction. The Ready action sets what lower-case-a action the Reaction will be. Note that even the examples given say you can move up to your Speed or pull a lever -- not take the Dash or Utilize actions
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I was offering another counter-argument to the idea that the familiar could make an attack on the warlock's turn, if the warlock used their Bonus Action
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I suppose it's not completely off-base to suggest that the warlock takes a bonus action to command the familiar to take the attack action as a reaction--a variation on what is laid out in the pact of the chain master... but that feels like a lot of unspoken assumptions about things that really SHOULD be laid out in the invocation feature. I give credit for considering alternatives, but that one does not sit well with me at all.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Thanks, mate! :)
Yeah, I get the other point of view too.
In my case, since I don't see any references to turns, I still think the Familiar's attacks happen immediately.
EDIT: That being said, just have fun in your games and pick what your
heartDM wants :DSAC and Devs beg to differ.
@JeremyECrawford The Ready action lets you ready any action you can take, including Attack, but Extra Attack is on your turn.
Why?
In the Ready Action rules, the line in blue refers to taking one of the actions described in Chapter 1 (or any other allowed by the DM or your features):
You are completely missing the point
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This Sage Advice is no longer valid. Grapple is now an option when you make a Unarmed Strike so it is no longer a dedicated option of the Attack.
In 2014, Grapple explicitly required the Attack action. In 2024, it can be any time (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction, etc) that you could make an Unarmed Strike. I believe this change was explicitly highlighted in the Monk preview video where Jeremy Crawford mentioned swapping one of your Flurries for a Grapple.
How to add Tooltips.
By using the Ready action on your turn, you're turning whatever you decide you want to do into a Reaction, not an Action. That's literally the entire point of the Ready action. Again, if you were taking the Dash action it would say so, not "move up to your Speed in response" to the trigger
And before this gets sidetracked any further -- Investment of the Chain Master says nothing about anyone using their reaction. You use a Bonus Action to issue a command to your familiar, which it can only take on its own turn, because the invocation doesn't say otherwise. It would need to include a specific exception for it to work any other way
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That's just how the game is designed 🤷🏻♂️
"Not all those who wander are lost"
And that really is the problem here, the invocation doesn't specify the timing either way. It doesn't say that it takes the action on its own turn nor does it say that it takes it immediately, it is silent on the timing. I've come around to the thinking that the normal action economy should apply and thus it would have to take the action on its own turn but it isn't crystal clear IMO.
I think that a main source of the unclarity is that the rule isn't placed in the rule for the creature (like pretty much all other pet-like features do) but in a completely different place and thus it uses its own unique wording that focuses on the PC's action economy while forgetting how it affects the Familiar.
I also think that they once again suffer from their crappy naming philosophy, the feature is called "Quick Attack" and there really is nothing "quick" at all about making a command that the Familiar executes at some later point in the initiative order during its own turn.
Yeah, but that's not a rule.
That's the rule of Reaction, yes. And unless you can find another one, it's the one and only exception to the rule of Your Turn