Considering a familiar is never prevented from taking the Attack action itself but to attack, i believe the familiar is somewhat intended to take the Attack action and attack as the Quick Attack feature has no timing indicating later use on it's turn for example.
Considering a familiar is never prevented from taking the Attack action itself but to attack, i believe the familiar is somewhat intended to take the Attack action and attack as the Quick Attack feature has no timing indicating later use on it's turn for example.
Wait a minute. What's the difference? What other function would the attack action offer if you aren't attacking?
Considering a familiar is never prevented from taking the Attack action itself but to attack, i believe the familiar is somewhat intended to take the Attack action and attack as the Quick Attack feature has no timing indicating later use on it's turn for example.
Wait a minute. What's the difference? What other function would the attack action offer if you aren't attacking?
I don't know but Find Familiar written more large means it normally can't attack in any way, shape or form, including Opportunity Attack, as opposed to simply preventing them to take the Attack action itself.
EDIT: The name quick attack makes me think it happens immediately. Even so, I don't think this feature would allow the familiar the benefit of the Multiattack action anyway, since Multiattack is not the same as the attack action. Since there's only one attack, there's no problem with moving between attacks.
Or am I just completely off-base here?
Didn't see your edit before, i know the 2024 Monster Manual has a specific rule for the Multiattack action indicating this entry details the attacks a creature can make, as well as any additional abilities it can use, as part of the Attack action.
So while my initial impression would go in the same sense as you, i wonder if using it would actually not be intended afterall.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
The one thing that would have me question that when you forgo an attack, that uses the familiar's reaction for it to make the attack. It isn't spelled out, but seems intended that it would mean that the familiar's attack occurs whenever you forgo the attack.
Otherwise, yes, I would assume since the familiar acts on its own initiative, any command you give it (including using your bonus action to issue the quick attack action) would seem to be issuing it a command which it would attempt when it's turn rolls around.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
That’s what I was thinking originally, but I no longer feel that way. What I see here is that you have the general rules for Find Familiar that says it does its actions in its turn. And then pact of the chain updates this rule to say you can spend one of your attacks on your turn to make the familiar attack on your turn using its reaction. And the investment of the chain invocation says you can use your bonus action to have it take the attack action on your turn as a reaction. It still uses one of your attacks, but you are free to use your action for other things on your turn.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
The one thing that would have me question that when you forgo an attack, that uses the familiar's reaction for it to make the attack. It isn't spelled out, but seems intended that it would mean that the familiar's attack occurs whenever you forgo the attack.
Otherwise, yes, I would assume since the familiar acts on its own initiative, any command you give it (including using your bonus action to issue the quick attack action) would seem to be issuing it a command which it would attempt when it's turn rolls around.
Ok so Attack Action using its Reactions would be done on my turn while the Quick Attack happens on its turn? Just wanting to be sure I am understanding correctly.
NGL, I feel dumb because I am having trouble following this for some reason lol.
So how I have been doing it is that Pact of the Chain, I give up my Attack to have my Familiar make one attack on its turn using its Reaction. Then Investment changes it from one of my Attacks to my Bonus Action for and it no long costs the Familiar's Reaction and they get to take a full Attack Action. All of that basically happening on its turn after I give the command.
NGL, I feel dumb because I am having trouble following this for some reason lol.
Don't feel bad. I'm still trying to work through this too. Even though I think I understand it, I'm not 100%.
Pact of the chain doesn't really specify timing other than "when you take the attack action" so I assume that would mean it happens right then and there. But if you take the attack action outside your turn for whatever reason, I guess you can have the familiar use its reaction at that time too? It's an edge case, but maybe it could happen. But with the investment of the chain, we know when the warlock uses it because if the warlock is taking a bonus action, that means it has to happen on the warlock's turn. And while the invocation doesn't specify when the familiar attacks, I assume it uses the same methods laid out in the pact of the chain feature because it doesn't say otherwise.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
The one thing that would have me question that when you forgo an attack, that uses the familiar's reaction for it to make the attack. It isn't spelled out, but seems intended that it would mean that the familiar's attack occurs whenever you forgo the attack.
Otherwise, yes, I would assume since the familiar acts on its own initiative, any command you give it (including using your bonus action to issue the quick attack action) would seem to be issuing it a command which it would attempt when it's turn rolls around.
Ok so Attack Action using its Reactions would be done on my turn while the Quick Attack happens on its turn? Just wanting to be sure I am understanding correctly.
That's how I interpreted it. Because it has its own turn and initiative, I assume it does everything on its own turn unless specified by some feature. I think the feature allowing it to use its reaction to make a single attack implies that it does so immediately (otherwise why would it require a reaction?).
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
That's how I interpreted it. Because it has its own turn and initiative, I assume it does everything on its own turn unless specified by some feature. I think the feature allowing it to use its reaction to make a single attack implies that it does so immediately (otherwise why would it require a reaction?).
So we have two conflicting options here.
Warlock uses their bonus action on their turn to tell the familiar to attack right then and there. The warlock forgoes one of their own attacks to have the familiar take the attack action using its reaction. This modifies the (already modified) rule for familiars that is laid out in the pact of the chain feature.
Warlock uses their bonus action on their turn to tell the familiar to attack, per find familiar. The warlock issues the command and queues up the attack, and the familiar takes its own turn and obeys the command at that time. The familiar's reaction is not used. This modifies the general rule for find familiar, but keeps the spell's timing and disregards the methods laid out in the pact of the chain feature.
My gut is telling me #1 is the intended process, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
While I agree with your conclusion, I don't agree with your logic to get there :)
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
I don't think most feature that allow a creature to attack on its turn do. Summon Fey doesn't. You command the creature, but the assumption is that it attacks on its turn.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
That’s what I was thinking originally, but I no longer feel that way. What I see here is that you have the general rules for Find Familiar that says it does its actions in its turn. And then pact of the chain updates this rule to say you can spend one of your attacks on your turn to make the familiar attack on your turn using its reaction. And the investment of the chain invocation says you can use your bonus action to have it take the attack action on your turn as a reaction. It still uses one of your attacks, but you are free to use your action for other things on your turn.
At least that’s my current understanding 🤣
Using the 2014 version, some DMs interpreted the rules to command familiars to attack on their own turn, rather than attacking immediately on the warlock's turn.
Personally, I was ruling the same as now with the 2024 rules.
In any case, this is how I see it:
- Pact of the Chain: you forgo one of your attacks and that consumes the Familiar's Reaction. It makes sense if this happens off turn from the Familiar perspective. - Investment of the Chain Master: you consume your Bonus Action and the familiar then takes the Attack action. IMO, if you had to wait for the Familiar's turn to attack, it wouldn't be a great feature.
It's two different things entirely here using seperate ressources from the Warlock and/or familiar's part :
Pact of the Chain:Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction.
- Investment of the Chain Master: you consume your Bonus Action and the familiar then takes the Attack action. IMO, if you had to wait for the Familiar's turn to attack, it wouldn't be a great feature.
It wouldn't be a great feature if it didn't wait for its turn, because it would have to attack from where ever it already is since it cannot move outside of its turn.
Edit: reminder that most familiar options do not have a ranged attack as part of their stat block.
That's how I interpreted it. Because it has its own turn and initiative, I assume it does everything on its own turn unless specified by some feature. I think the feature allowing it to use its reaction to make a single attack implies that it does so immediately (otherwise why would it require a reaction?).
So we have two conflicting options here.
Warlock uses their bonus action on their turn to tell the familiar to attack right then and there. The warlock forgoes one of their own attacks to have the familiar take the attack action using its reaction. This modifies the (already modified) rule for familiars that is laid out in the pact of the chain feature.
Warlock uses their bonus action on their turn to tell the familiar to attack, per find familiar. The warlock issues the command and queues up the attack, and the familiar takes its own turn and obeys the command at that time. The familiar's reaction is not used. This modifies the general rule for find familiar, but keeps the spell's timing and disregards the methods laid out in the pact of the chain feature.
My gut is telling me #1 is the intended process, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
While I agree with your conclusion, I don't agree with your logic to get there :)
#1 is a really heavy resource tax though. You give up an attack, a bonus action and the familiar's reaction to get one attack from most familliars. Unless you have a way to get multiple attacks then you are basically sacrificing your action and bonus action to get a really weak attack (at least from most of the familliar options given.)
Edit, I may have read that wrong, so Bonus Action, Familiar takes attack action (One attack or possibly Multiattack), Give up an Attack, Familiar makes one Attack as a Reaaction. So a total of 2 attacks for most Familiars for the cost of an Attack and Bonus Action (Familiar's Reaction)? All happening on my turn.
- Investment of the Chain Master: you consume your Bonus Action and the familiar then takes the Attack action. IMO, if you had to wait for the Familiar's turn to attack, it wouldn't be a great feature.
It wouldn't be a great feature if it didn't wait for its turn, because it would have to attack from where ever it already is since it cannot move outside of its turn.
It's a good point, but it seems to me like a tradeoff: your Bonus Action for an Attack using your Familiar.
Also, your familiar, in its turn, is free to use a new action.
Considering a familiar is never prevented from taking the Attack action itself but to attack, i believe the familiar is somewhat intended to take the Attack action and attack as the Quick Attack feature has no timing indicating later use on it's turn for example.
Wait a minute. What's the difference? What other function would the attack action offer if you aren't attacking?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't know but Find Familiar written more large means it normally can't attack in any way, shape or form, including Opportunity Attack, as opposed to simply preventing them to take the Attack action itself.
Wait, I always assumed that you told your Familiar to do a thing on your turn then it just did the thing it was told to do on its turn. Is that wrong?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Didn't see your edit before, i know the 2024 Monster Manual has a specific rule for the Multiattack action indicating this entry details the attacks a creature can make, as well as any additional abilities it can use, as part of the Attack action.
So while my initial impression would go in the same sense as you, i wonder if using it would actually not be intended afterall.
The one thing that would have me question that when you forgo an attack, that uses the familiar's reaction for it to make the attack. It isn't spelled out, but seems intended that it would mean that the familiar's attack occurs whenever you forgo the attack.
Otherwise, yes, I would assume since the familiar acts on its own initiative, any command you give it (including using your bonus action to issue the quick attack action) would seem to be issuing it a command which it would attempt when it's turn rolls around.
That’s what I was thinking originally, but I no longer feel that way. What I see here is that you have the general rules for Find Familiar that says it does its actions in its turn. And then pact of the chain updates this rule to say you can spend one of your attacks on your turn to make the familiar attack on your turn using its reaction. And the investment of the chain invocation says you can use your bonus action to have it take the attack action on your turn as a reaction. It still uses one of your attacks, but you are free to use your action for other things on your turn.
At least that’s my current understanding 🤣
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Ok so Attack Action using its Reactions would be done on my turn while the Quick Attack happens on its turn? Just wanting to be sure I am understanding correctly.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
NGL, I feel dumb because I am having trouble following this for some reason lol.
So how I have been doing it is that Pact of the Chain, I give up my Attack to have my Familiar make one attack on its turn using its Reaction. Then Investment changes it from one of my Attacks to my Bonus Action for and it no long costs the Familiar's Reaction and they get to take a full Attack Action. All of that basically happening on its turn after I give the command.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Don't feel bad. I'm still trying to work through this too. Even though I think I understand it, I'm not 100%.
Pact of the chain doesn't really specify timing other than "when you take the attack action" so I assume that would mean it happens right then and there. But if you take the attack action outside your turn for whatever reason, I guess you can have the familiar use its reaction at that time too? It's an edge case, but maybe it could happen. But with the investment of the chain, we know when the warlock uses it because if the warlock is taking a bonus action, that means it has to happen on the warlock's turn. And while the invocation doesn't specify when the familiar attacks, I assume it uses the same methods laid out in the pact of the chain feature because it doesn't say otherwise.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's how I interpreted it. Because it has its own turn and initiative, I assume it does everything on its own turn unless specified by some feature. I think the feature allowing it to use its reaction to make a single attack implies that it does so immediately (otherwise why would it require a reaction?).
The Quick Attack feature doesn't say you can command your familiar take the Attack action on it's next turn, so it's then and there, hence the name i guess.
So we have two conflicting options here.
My gut is telling me #1 is the intended process, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
While I agree with your conclusion, I don't agree with your logic to get there :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't think most feature that allow a creature to attack on its turn do. Summon Fey doesn't. You command the creature, but the assumption is that it attacks on its turn.
Using the 2014 version, some DMs interpreted the rules to command familiars to attack on their own turn, rather than attacking immediately on the warlock's turn.
Personally, I was ruling the same as now with the 2024 rules.
In any case, this is how I see it:
- Pact of the Chain: you forgo one of your attacks and that consumes the Familiar's Reaction. It makes sense if this happens off turn from the Familiar perspective.
- Investment of the Chain Master: you consume your Bonus Action and the familiar then takes the Attack action. IMO, if you had to wait for the Familiar's turn to attack, it wouldn't be a great feature.
It's two different things entirely here using seperate ressources from the Warlock and/or familiar's part :
It wouldn't be a great feature if it didn't wait for its turn, because it would have to attack from where ever it already is since it cannot move outside of its turn.
Edit: reminder that most familiar options do not have a ranged attack as part of their stat block.
#1 is a really heavy resource tax though. You give up an attack, a bonus action and the familiar's reaction to get one attack from most familliars. Unless you have a way to get multiple attacks then you are basically sacrificing your action and bonus action to get a really weak attack (at least from most of the familliar options given.)
Edit, I may have read that wrong, so Bonus Action, Familiar takes attack action (One attack or possibly Multiattack), Give up an Attack, Familiar makes one Attack as a Reaaction. So a total of 2 attacks for most Familiars for the cost of an Attack and Bonus Action (Familiar's Reaction)? All happening on my turn.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It's a good point, but it seems to me like a tradeoff: your Bonus Action for an Attack using your Familiar.
Also, your familiar, in its turn, is free to use a new action.
I agree. Although... it would still allow the warlock to take an action other than the attack action, and that has some real value.
"Not all those who wander are lost"