I'm planning my upcoming game. I know in 2014 the designers have come out and said that you always know where an invisible creature is, because perception is more than just sight. I had previously decided that flight should be an exception, because you aren't actually on the ground to make noise.
Well, fast forward to today and I'm planning my next game session and I realize a new feature of the Oni.... Bonus action Invisibility. After an Oni turns invisible they can move up to 30 ft. away. in any direction. Since you can't take an opportunity attack against a creature you can't see, in almost every situation they are going to be able to move 30 ft away. Next turn use Nightmare Ray then turn invisible and move again.
Since the Oni can move in any direction it would be nearly impossible to randomly guess where they went. Nightmare Ray has a 60ft. range, giving plenty of space to randomly move to. With disadvantage it would be nearly impossible to ever actually hit one.
Using a skill during combat takes an action, which means unless one or more PCs do nothing on their turn except try to find the Oni, using Stealth/Perception doesn't seem to be a good solution. Even going on passive perception, its possible the Oni can roll high enough they could just regen before anyone finds them.
It seems the Oni is made specifically with the assumption that you always know where an Invisible creature is, even if they are flying.
I'm planning my upcoming game. I know in 2014 the designers have come out and said that you always know where an invisible creature is, because perception is more than just sight. I had previously decided that flight should be an exception, because you aren't actually on the ground to make noise.
Well, fast forward to today and I'm planning my next game session and I realize a new feature of the Oni.... Bonus action Invisibility. After an Oni turns invisible they can move up to 30 ft. away. in any direction. Since you can't take an opportunity attack against a creature you can't see, in almost every situation they are going to be able to move 30 ft away. Next turn use Nightmare Ray then turn invisible and move again.
Since the Oni can move in any direction it would be nearly impossible to randomly guess where they went. Nightmare Ray has a 60ft. range, giving plenty of space to randomly move to. With disadvantage it would be nearly impossible to ever actually hit one.
Using a skill during combat takes an action, which means unless one or more PCs do nothing on their turn except try to find the Oni, using Stealth/Perception doesn't seem to be a good solution. Even going on passive perception, its possible the Oni can roll high enough they could just regen before anyone finds them.
It seems the Oni is made specifically with the assumption that you always know where an Invisible creature is, even if they are flying.
Why can’t your characters throw caltrops, ball bearings, use a readied action to attack once attacked, or any other thing that doesn’t just “we know where invisible things are because”?
not to mention dump oil, spray it with perfume, etc. Faerie Fire. There’s so many things to do besides just hand wave it away.
Up to DM. The 2024 rules still say that the following:
Unseen Attackers and Targets
When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss.
When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
If you rule that the Invisible Oni's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that?
Without any chance to perceive it for example, the characters might as well just Ready actions for when it reappears after attacking or something.
But after that expect your party to assume it will also work that way for their character becoming invisible.
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way.
You're the interpreter of the rules, and the controller of the creature. If you are concerned that playing a monster in the most optimal way to act, and sticking entirely to the letter of the rules would produce an encounter which would be pretty frustrating for your players, then it's up to you to balance between what would be the optimal thing for the creature to do, and what would actually be a fun and challenging encounter.
You know your players available skills and spells. You can see if they have anything available which would make the fight easier, such as Faerie Fire or the cantrip Starry Wisp. If you want to bend the rules to give your players a free perception check, you can. The Ori is a fiend, but not undead, so even though it can hover, it still breathes, yes?
Other ways to deal: If the combat is inside, have it take place inside a room which "just happens to be" full of dust and sacks of old flour which the players can use to toss into the air to find movement. If it's outdoors, the weather could be foggy, rainy or snowy. The attacks will still be at disadvantage because of the Invisibility, but it'll give the players a direction to aim. Detect Magic is on all caster's spell lists and many will have it prepared, and it lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration. Invisibility is a spell, even though the Oni's version is not using a spell slot, so your PC's can detect magic and get a vague direction to aim, as in the second session of Critical Role EXU: Calamity.
If an invisible creature is making no attempt to be stealthy, then I'm fine with people knowing where they are. The condition itself provides a level of protection from targeting. When an invisible creature is attempting to be stealthy, then we can talk about where stealth transitions from passive quietness to active hiding. As a DM, I consider what the invisible creature is doing when determining how conspicuous they are being.
In the 2014 rules an Invisible creature could always attempt to Hide which was then interpreted to mean that its location was no longer known.
However, the 2024 rules have changed this ..
Taking the HIde action gives a creature the Invisible condition.
There is no point in a 2024 character taking the Hide action while already invisible because it provides no additional benefit - invisible and Hidden are effectively the same (Hidden no longer exists - the Hide action makes a creature Invisible). The only difference is that if you become Invisible from the hide action, there is a longer list of reasons that will cause a character to lose the Invisible condition.
I also couldn't find any reference to a creature's location being unknown except the paragraph cited by Plaguescarred which is included in the 2024 PHB but copied verbatim from the 2014 PHB. This quotation removed the line present in the 2014 rules "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." ... which implied that being hidden - unseen and unheard - would make your location unknown. Without this, the 2024 rules appear to provide no mechanism for the location of a creature to become unknown other than DM ruling.
So, the 2024 rules don't seem to have a mechanism for a creature's location to become unknown. As a result, I would tend to think that the game intends that the location of any creature whose location has become known remains known even if invisible unless the DM rules otherwise. The game provides no rules on how a location becomes unknown which appears to leave it entirely in the DMs hands to figure out on a case by case basis.
I'm planning my upcoming game. I know in 2014 the designers have come out and said that you always know where an invisible creature is, because perception is more than just sight. I had previously decided that flight should be an exception, because you aren't actually on the ground to make noise. -------------------
It seems the Oni is made specifically with the assumption that you always know where an Invisible creature is, even if they are flying.
I think the biggest player option you are forgetting is that players can ready attacks or spells to take place or to be cast as soon as the Oni appears. So I don't think with the 2024 rules on unseen attackers or targets are meant to be known where they are at all. And it is a change from the 2014 assumption.
Readying an action or spell has always been the option for players in every edition to try to counter opponents using tactics like yours.
I've gone so far as to create a mini-laminated map board to use behind the DM screen for situations like this rather than have a glaring token on the board as a give away.
I also couldn't find any reference to a creature's location being unknown except the paragraph cited by Plaguescarred which is included in the 2024 PHB but copied verbatim from the 2014 PHB. This quotation removed the line present in the 2014 rules "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." ... which implied that being hidden - unseen and unheard - would make your location unknown.
It still implies that, just in a different sentence. "This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see." It's just that there's no longer a mechanic that explicitly makes you unheard.
I'm planning my upcoming game. I know in 2014 the designers have come out and said that you always know where an invisible creature is, because perception is more than just sight. I had previously decided that flight should be an exception, because you aren't actually on the ground to make noise. -------------------
It seems the Oni is made specifically with the assumption that you always know where an Invisible creature is, even if they are flying.
I think the biggest player option you are forgetting is that players can ready attacks or spells to take place or to be cast as soon as the Oni appears. So I don't think with the 2024 rules on unseen attackers or targets are meant to be known where they are at all. And it is a change from the 2014 assumption.
Readying an action or spell has always been the option for players in every edition to try to counter opponents using tactics like yours.
I've gone so far as to create a mini-laminated map board to use behind the DM screen for situations like this rather than have a glaring token on the board as a give away.
A fighter who ready's an attack is dropping down from 2-3 attacks per round to 1. So against an Oni who can remain invisible and heal, that is problematic. Because he only needs to attack every 2 minutes while at full health.
IMO, even with the 2024 rules, Perception to locate a hidden creature isn't just about eyesight or visual senses.
In the middle of combat, if the Invisible creature can be heard (e.g., breathing, rustling clothes) or smelled (e.g., body odor, cologne :D), I'd apply just Disadvantage on the roll against the Oni, unless not allowed because the attack specifically requires seeing the target (as some spells do)
IMO, even with the 2024 rules, Perception to locate a hidden creature isn't just about eyesight or visual senses.
In the middle of combat, if the Invisible creature can be heard (e.g., breathing, rustling clothes) or smelled (e.g., body odor, cologne :D), I'd apply just Disadvantage on the roll against the Oni, unless not allowed because the attack specifically requires seeing the target (as some spells do)
I think this is a perfect example of a DM making a ruling on elements that would affect attempts at [Tooltip Not Found]. This is completely consistent with the rules for how ability checks are meant to work.
This is a perfect example of why adventurers need to carry sacks of flour. Ready an action to swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility. Give the creature the chance to use an action to try to get the flour off of them, or say it lasts 2 turns or something, and I think it is very reasonable and doesn't intrude on spells like "See Invisibility" and "Faerie Fire".
I don't think people appreciate how many circumstances sacks of flour are useful in in D&D. My second favorite common item for my character to carry around, behind ball-bearings.
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
I also couldn't find any reference to a creature's location being unknown except the paragraph cited by Plaguescarred which is included in the 2024 PHB but copied verbatim from the 2014 PHB. This quotation removed the line present in the 2014 rules "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." ... which implied that being hidden - unseen and unheard - would make your location unknown.
It still implies that, just in a different sentence. "This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see." It's just that there's no longer a mechanic that explicitly makes you unheard.
Not quite. This sentence just implies that it is possible for the location of a creature to be unknown. The "hear but not see" is just an example of how you might be aware of the location of a creature you can't see, it isn't exhaustive - while the 2014 version defined "Hidden" as "unseen and unheard" - leading to an invisible creature always being able to take the Hide action to make a stealth check to hide all traces of their presence - making their current location unknown.
For example, a character might be able to smell the location of a creature, or they might be able to feel its vibrations if they have tremorsense or similar, or perhaps a character might feel the motion of the air from an invisible creature flapping its wings, or the creature leaves tracks, disturbs a mist or leaves other visual cues even if you can't actually see the creature. There are a lot of ways that a creature's location can become known besides the default methods of making an attack or casting a spell.
The 2024 rules still include the sentence "If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." However, "Hidden" is no longer defined in the 2024 rules. Taking the Hide action no longer makes a creature hidden ... it gives them the Invisible condition.
So a creature could start off a combat with their location unknown (at the DMs discretion) and it would be revealed when they cast a spell or make an attack even if invisible ... but there is no mechanism in the 2024 rules for that creature's location to ever become unknown again except by DM fiat.
"Hidden" is no longer defined in the 2024 rules. Taking the Hide action no longer makes a creature hidden ... it gives them the Invisible condition.
But the 2024 rules state that Hiding requires being obscured or covered, while the Invisible Condition does not. There are other 2024 rules that differentiate between being in Total Cover or being Invisible. So being Hidden and being Invisible are not the same thing and must be treated differently, right?
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
It's only stuff you're wearing when you go invisible, but since the Oni can do it at will, they would just need to go invisible again after the flour, and they'd have the same result.
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
It's only stuff you're wearing when you go invisible, but since the Oni can do it at will, they would just need to go invisible again after the flour, and they'd have the same result.
There is still flour on the ground which would the. Have foot prints in it…
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blank
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm planning my upcoming game. I know in 2014 the designers have come out and said that you always know where an invisible creature is, because perception is more than just sight. I had previously decided that flight should be an exception, because you aren't actually on the ground to make noise.
Well, fast forward to today and I'm planning my next game session and I realize a new feature of the Oni.... Bonus action Invisibility. After an Oni turns invisible they can move up to 30 ft. away. in any direction. Since you can't take an opportunity attack against a creature you can't see, in almost every situation they are going to be able to move 30 ft away. Next turn use Nightmare Ray then turn invisible and move again.
Since the Oni can move in any direction it would be nearly impossible to randomly guess where they went. Nightmare Ray has a 60ft. range, giving plenty of space to randomly move to. With disadvantage it would be nearly impossible to ever actually hit one.
Using a skill during combat takes an action, which means unless one or more PCs do nothing on their turn except try to find the Oni, using Stealth/Perception doesn't seem to be a good solution. Even going on passive perception, its possible the Oni can roll high enough they could just regen before anyone finds them.
It seems the Oni is made specifically with the assumption that you always know where an Invisible creature is, even if they are flying.
Why can’t your characters throw caltrops, ball bearings, use a readied action to attack once attacked, or any other thing that doesn’t just “we know where invisible things are because”?
not to mention dump oil, spray it with perfume, etc. Faerie Fire. There’s so many things to do besides just hand wave it away.
Blank
Up to DM. The 2024 rules still say that the following:
If you rule that the Invisible Oni's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that?
Without any chance to perceive it for example, the characters might as well just Ready actions for when it reappears after attacking or something.
But after that expect your party to assume it will also work that way for their character becoming invisible.
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way.
You're the interpreter of the rules, and the controller of the creature. If you are concerned that playing a monster in the most optimal way to act, and sticking entirely to the letter of the rules would produce an encounter which would be pretty frustrating for your players, then it's up to you to balance between what would be the optimal thing for the creature to do, and what would actually be a fun and challenging encounter.
You know your players available skills and spells. You can see if they have anything available which would make the fight easier, such as Faerie Fire or the cantrip Starry Wisp. If you want to bend the rules to give your players a free perception check, you can. The Ori is a fiend, but not undead, so even though it can hover, it still breathes, yes?
Other ways to deal: If the combat is inside, have it take place inside a room which "just happens to be" full of dust and sacks of old flour which the players can use to toss into the air to find movement. If it's outdoors, the weather could be foggy, rainy or snowy. The attacks will still be at disadvantage because of the Invisibility, but it'll give the players a direction to aim. Detect Magic is on all caster's spell lists and many will have it prepared, and it lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration. Invisibility is a spell, even though the Oni's version is not using a spell slot, so your PC's can detect magic and get a vague direction to aim, as in the second session of Critical Role EXU: Calamity.
Flying isn't silent. Depending on the creature there might be different noises.
Giant Eagle: "Flap flap flap flap"
Beholder: "Woomp Woomp Woomp Woomp"
Oni: "Woooooooooooosh"
Monodrone: "Squeeeek Squeeek Squeeek"
Mechachimera: "Clang Clang Clang Clang"
Etc.
If an invisible creature is making no attempt to be stealthy, then I'm fine with people knowing where they are. The condition itself provides a level of protection from targeting. When an invisible creature is attempting to be stealthy, then we can talk about where stealth transitions from passive quietness to active hiding. As a DM, I consider what the invisible creature is doing when determining how conspicuous they are being.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
In the 2014 rules an Invisible creature could always attempt to Hide which was then interpreted to mean that its location was no longer known.
However, the 2024 rules have changed this ..
Taking the HIde action gives a creature the Invisible condition.
There is no point in a 2024 character taking the Hide action while already invisible because it provides no additional benefit - invisible and Hidden are effectively the same (Hidden no longer exists - the Hide action makes a creature Invisible). The only difference is that if you become Invisible from the hide action, there is a longer list of reasons that will cause a character to lose the Invisible condition.
I also couldn't find any reference to a creature's location being unknown except the paragraph cited by Plaguescarred which is included in the 2024 PHB but copied verbatim from the 2014 PHB. This quotation removed the line present in the 2014 rules "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." ... which implied that being hidden - unseen and unheard - would make your location unknown. Without this, the 2024 rules appear to provide no mechanism for the location of a creature to become unknown other than DM ruling.
So, the 2024 rules don't seem to have a mechanism for a creature's location to become unknown. As a result, I would tend to think that the game intends that the location of any creature whose location has become known remains known even if invisible unless the DM rules otherwise. The game provides no rules on how a location becomes unknown which appears to leave it entirely in the DMs hands to figure out on a case by case basis.
I think the biggest player option you are forgetting is that players can ready attacks or spells to take place or to be cast as soon as the Oni appears.
So I don't think with the 2024 rules on unseen attackers or targets are meant to be known where they are at all. And it is a change from the 2014 assumption.
Readying an action or spell has always been the option for players in every edition to try to counter opponents using tactics like yours.
I've gone so far as to create a mini-laminated map board to use behind the DM screen for situations like this rather than have a glaring token on the board as a give away.
It still implies that, just in a different sentence. "This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see." It's just that there's no longer a mechanic that explicitly makes you unheard.
A fighter who ready's an attack is dropping down from 2-3 attacks per round to 1. So against an Oni who can remain invisible and heal, that is problematic. Because he only needs to attack every 2 minutes while at full health.
IMO, even with the 2024 rules, Perception to locate a hidden creature isn't just about eyesight or visual senses.
In the middle of combat, if the Invisible creature can be heard (e.g., breathing, rustling clothes) or smelled (e.g., body odor, cologne :D), I'd apply just Disadvantage on the roll against the Oni, unless not allowed because the attack specifically requires seeing the target (as some spells do)
I think this is a perfect example of a DM making a ruling on elements that would affect attempts at [Tooltip Not Found]. This is completely consistent with the rules for how ability checks are meant to work.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is a perfect example of why adventurers need to carry sacks of flour. Ready an action to swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility. Give the creature the chance to use an action to try to get the flour off of them, or say it lasts 2 turns or something, and I think it is very reasonable and doesn't intrude on spells like "See Invisibility" and "Faerie Fire".
I don't think people appreciate how many circumstances sacks of flour are useful in in D&D. My second favorite common item for my character to carry around, behind ball-bearings.
Defeat the invisible condition with one simple trick!
(Onis hate it)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed."
Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
Not quite. This sentence just implies that it is possible for the location of a creature to be unknown. The "hear but not see" is just an example of how you might be aware of the location of a creature you can't see, it isn't exhaustive - while the 2014 version defined "Hidden" as "unseen and unheard" - leading to an invisible creature always being able to take the Hide action to make a stealth check to hide all traces of their presence - making their current location unknown.
For example, a character might be able to smell the location of a creature, or they might be able to feel its vibrations if they have tremorsense or similar, or perhaps a character might feel the motion of the air from an invisible creature flapping its wings, or the creature leaves tracks, disturbs a mist or leaves other visual cues even if you can't actually see the creature. There are a lot of ways that a creature's location can become known besides the default methods of making an attack or casting a spell.
The 2024 rules still include the sentence "If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." However, "Hidden" is no longer defined in the 2024 rules. Taking the Hide action no longer makes a creature hidden ... it gives them the Invisible condition.
So a creature could start off a combat with their location unknown (at the DMs discretion) and it would be revealed when they cast a spell or make an attack even if invisible ... but there is no mechanism in the 2024 rules for that creature's location to ever become unknown again except by DM fiat.
But the 2024 rules state that Hiding requires being obscured or covered, while the Invisible Condition does not. There are other 2024 rules that differentiate between being in Total Cover or being Invisible. So being Hidden and being Invisible are not the same thing and must be treated differently, right?
It's only stuff you're wearing when you go invisible, but since the Oni can do it at will, they would just need to go invisible again after the flour, and they'd have the same result.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is still flour on the ground which would the. Have foot prints in it…
Blank