what type of lycanthrope was he bit by cause they all act very different and a pc could hypothetically be taught to control the curse like a werebear would teach someone to control the curse then again i think werebears are a different alignment from the standard werewolf
TomoDako, Thank you for your reply. The lycanthropy in question is a werewolf. The setting is the Curse of Strahd, so this will be a likely encounter. I just don't see any mechanic or even a general guide. I've only found community posts and a few outdated items. I'm not trying to make it complicated for the player or me. I have 2 basic transformation triggers. 1- the full moon, no DC as it is guaranteed transformation, but I give them a DC option to delay it. 2- An Alpha type werewolf's howl/call to the pack. Currently, I set the DC comparative to the Alpha Werewolf intimidate vs Will Save. If I want to build suspense on the fullmoon a con save starting at 10 and getting +1 DC every round to delay the transformation, but it will eventually happen.
Specifically, the character is Chaotic Neutral, now Chaotic Evil. I've upped his Str to 15, etc the passive abilities stated in the MM. However, what triggers transformations and how to control it are basically blanks. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I've had no luck thus far.
Well, it kinda depends. The full moon thing does happen I believe no matter what, but when they embrace it, it gives them the ability to transform in and out of their form as they please. If you resist, you must make that Will save check to keep it under control.
However, with the lycantropes that were born like that, the full moon thing doesn't affect them.
I believe that this is what happens, but then again I can be wrong.
On the subject of werewolf alignment changes- how many people here haven't read The Prisoner of Azkaban? It is totally possible for a werewolf to be good.
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"Teach a man to make fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
So that certain event can absolutely happen. The alignment thing is only the average alignment of a creature. Such as a beholder is not entirely evil, there CAN be some good beholders, but most of the time it's Chaotic Good, neutral, or evil. It all depends on the creature, if their will is strong enough, they can resist the alignment change and other effects. But it is entirely possible a werewolf can become good, but its good isn't inherited by the werewolf, it has to earn it's alignment change.
However this is up to the DM, they do not always have to follow the basic rules of the game and monsters.
This is a Blood Hunter Order of the Lycan question, but applies here. Can a character with the Curse of Lycanthropy use magic abilities while in Hybrid form?
The Blood Hunter text states, "You can speak, use equipment, and wear armor in this form." It doesn't explicitly state you can't use magic in that form, nor does the Lycanthrope entry in the Monster Manual.
It kind of depends on the DM's ruling. Since it is not stated in the rules, the DM determines the outcome. I personally would say you cannot because its kind of like wild shape, just scaled onto a more hybrid and savage form. However, some folk can disagree with this statement and it would be correct.
Again, as I have said in my other posts, this is just my ruling on the matter, but other DMs have different points of view that do contradict my statements.
DM's, you do you. But have a solid reason why something is or isn't allowed if not stated by the rules, it makes the game more roleplayed and not rule-based.
I'm actually doing a little something fun with lycanthropy. So, I'm running a Taldorei campaign and one of the players is a spy for White Stone, was investigating the suude trade. She ratted some folks out (background story and spy background). They found out and sent a hitter after her. The hitter is a werewolf, rather than just out and out attack them, he decided to convince the bard, who's naive and bright eyed and a generally good sort, to drink some tainted wine spike with werewolf saliva (I had him roll the con save three times, since I figured it was a "weaker" way of contracting the curse). He failed all three. So, the hitter's general idea is that the bard will turn, kill his mark, and he'll go on his merry way free and clear, the bard killed once the town guard find out it was on him. Before it's all said and done, another NPC will offer him the chance to "control it". He'll give him something to suppress the curse enough that he can shift, 1x per day and maintain enough of his senses to not be chaotic evil. If he drops below 25% HP, he'll have to make a will save to keep his senses and not attack anyone in the party. Part of the story, they'll have to travel into the Underdark to get some stuff to make a concoction that will eliminate the transmission of the curse via bite.
Very interesting. I do like the idea of anything spiked by lycanthrope blood, spit, etc can give the curse but as a weaker strain. However, I would have just had him make a saving throw each time the target drinks, not really three.
In addition, in order to remove the lycanthrope's curse, a remove curse spell will also work, but you can retcon it to say that this melody is also a cure. However, maybe the creator must make the concoction correct via Survival Check. But if the save fails, you can say the curse gets worse.
That's just my viewpoint on this ability (Which I find very interesting), you are the DM, which means your word, for now, overpowers my word for your campaign.
I'm playing as a Shifter Echo Knight fighter and due to his backstory I'm thinking that Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter would be an interesting RP choice. Nothing states that Shifters are immune to the Lycan curse, so I assume it's possible. My question is basically, how would a Lycan curse affect a person of Lycan descent? Their shifting doesn't quite reach the Hybrid state that the Curse allows, but essentially they'd have 2 separate transformations.
I'm going to leave the option of Remove Curse, but they're sort of backwoods at the moment. So, to find someone that has it, they'll have to do a bit of traveling since no in the party is classed to get it. The three con saves was to cover the entirety of the cup. Mostly, I think it makes for a neat story and choice.
I'll let you know how it all plays out and if he slaughters the entire party for funsies, or gets his act together, or what have you.
so to the question of magic a lycanthropy transformation is considered a wildshape like when druids transform so if druids can use magic when transformed then so can lycans
I'm playing as a Shifter Echo Knight fighter and due to his backstory I'm thinking that Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter would be an interesting RP choice. Nothing states that Shifters are immune to the Lycan curse, so I assume it's possible. My question is basically, how would a Lycan curse affect a person of Lycan descent? Their shifting doesn't quite reach the Hybrid state that the Curse allows, but essentially they'd have 2 separate transformations.
In my eyes, the curse will not be canceled by the Shifter's ability. Since one ability is basically improving one's form (the shifter) and the other is a hybrid transformation that is descended from a curse, you will be able to activate them separately, and they do not count as the same transformation. An example to prove my theory is that one can have multiple curses placed upon them or have multiple buffs/magical items that may or may not do the same thing. In that case, the user can choose which item/ability to use because it is not the same ability. However, with a curse, the more prominent one will be active and shown while the lesser curse may still be in effect, or maybe its suppressed by the current curse.
So in conclusion: It's technically up to the player to choose the certain ability they would like to use, however, consult the DM before any decisions are made. It makes the process become smoother and the DM has a pre-sense ahead of time for your abilities. However, they could rule that the abilities are either one or the other.
Best of luck to your Shifter Echo Fighter Order of Lycan PC!
Lycanthropes only effect humanoid, so if bitten in wild shape or any other form, you technically don't get affected by the curse. Since a Shifter is a humanoid, the curse is entirely possible. Humanoids with animal-like traits can be affected by the curse. However, in their form, they have to be humanoid in order for the curse to affect them. So switching from, let's say, druid wild shape is not possible because they aren't technically in human form. In addition, their hybrid form counts as a monstrosity, so in thinking about 2 lycan curses is a bit hard to manage, its like a twin mind at that point a 1v1v1 alignment war.
so to the question of magic a lycanthropy transformation is considered a wildshape like when druids transform so if druids can use magic when transformed then so can lycans
Druids can't, but lycanthropic transformation isn't a wild shape. The rules for PC lycanthropes specify 'The character can’t speak while in animal form.', which will prevent using anything with a V component, and probably can't wield objects (so no 'M', and maybe no 'S') , but hybrid form has no explicit restrictions, and most of the lycanthropes in the MM use weapons in hybrid form.
so to the question of magic a lycanthropy transformation is considered a wildshape like when druids transform so if druids can use magic when transformed then so can lycans
Druids can't, but lycanthropic transformation isn't a wild shape. The rules for PC lycanthropes specify 'The character can’t speak while in animal form.', which will prevent using anything with a V component, and probably can't wield objects (so no 'M', and maybe no 'S') , but hybrid form has no explicit restrictions, and most of the lycanthropes in the MM use weapons in hybrid form.
Exactly. However, I believe that there have been some instances where a lycan is able to cast spells, but you are entirely correct. However, with the somatic component, I would rule that depending on the animal, it could perform a somatic component. But, with the material and verbal components, they cannot be performed.
Maybe if the animal form was able to speak, via a spell cast on yourself from another player, maybe you can cover the verbal component. But, the material component cannot be used in this state of lycan. Possibly the DM could rule that the materials can be used, but your animal form needs to place them all in one area, or maybe another person needs to hold the materials while you cast the spell.
This is just my take and what makes sense, so don't take it personally, just throwing out some ideas.
The Order of the Lycan hybrid form allows you to speak, use equipment, and wear armor. To me that means you can satisfy VSM and my DM agrees, and nothing in any of the lycanthropy text explicitly states that you can't use magic. Obviously this doesn't apply to a fully shifted form, but OotL doesn't have that ability.
what type of lycanthrope was he bit by cause they all act very different and a pc could hypothetically be taught to control the curse like a werebear would teach someone to control the curse then again i think werebears are a different alignment from the standard werewolf
TomoDako, Thank you for your reply. The lycanthropy in question is a werewolf. The setting is the Curse of Strahd, so this will be a likely encounter. I just don't see any mechanic or even a general guide. I've only found community posts and a few outdated items. I'm not trying to make it complicated for the player or me. I have 2 basic transformation triggers. 1- the full moon, no DC as it is guaranteed transformation, but I give them a DC option to delay it. 2- An Alpha type werewolf's howl/call to the pack. Currently, I set the DC comparative to the Alpha Werewolf intimidate vs Will Save. If I want to build suspense on the fullmoon a con save starting at 10 and getting +1 DC every round to delay the transformation, but it will eventually happen.
Specifically, the character is Chaotic Neutral, now Chaotic Evil. I've upped his Str to 15, etc the passive abilities stated in the MM. However, what triggers transformations and how to control it are basically blanks. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I've had no luck thus far.
lycanthropes that embrace the curse can just transform as an action and aren’t forced under the full moon and that’s when they’re alignment changes
Well, it kinda depends. The full moon thing does happen I believe no matter what, but when they embrace it, it gives them the ability to transform in and out of their form as they please. If you resist, you must make that Will save check to keep it under control.
However, with the lycantropes that were born like that, the full moon thing doesn't affect them.
I believe that this is what happens, but then again I can be wrong.
I’m pretty sure you’re right
On the subject of werewolf alignment changes- how many people here haven't read The Prisoner of Azkaban? It is totally possible for a werewolf to be good.
"Teach a man to make fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
If you embraced it you’re alignment changes
So that certain event can absolutely happen. The alignment thing is only the average alignment of a creature. Such as a beholder is not entirely evil, there CAN be some good beholders, but most of the time it's Chaotic Good, neutral, or evil. It all depends on the creature, if their will is strong enough, they can resist the alignment change and other effects. But it is entirely possible a werewolf can become good, but its good isn't inherited by the werewolf, it has to earn it's alignment change.
However this is up to the DM, they do not always have to follow the basic rules of the game and monsters.
This is a Blood Hunter Order of the Lycan question, but applies here. Can a character with the Curse of Lycanthropy use magic abilities while in Hybrid form?
The Blood Hunter text states, "You can speak, use equipment, and wear armor in this form." It doesn't explicitly state you can't use magic in that form, nor does the Lycanthrope entry in the Monster Manual.
It kind of depends on the DM's ruling. Since it is not stated in the rules, the DM determines the outcome. I personally would say you cannot because its kind of like wild shape, just scaled onto a more hybrid and savage form. However, some folk can disagree with this statement and it would be correct.
Again, as I have said in my other posts, this is just my ruling on the matter, but other DMs have different points of view that do contradict my statements.
DM's, you do you. But have a solid reason why something is or isn't allowed if not stated by the rules, it makes the game more roleplayed and not rule-based.
Stay safe, keep DMing!
I'm actually doing a little something fun with lycanthropy. So, I'm running a Taldorei campaign and one of the players is a spy for White Stone, was investigating the suude trade. She ratted some folks out (background story and spy background). They found out and sent a hitter after her. The hitter is a werewolf, rather than just out and out attack them, he decided to convince the bard, who's naive and bright eyed and a generally good sort, to drink some tainted wine spike with werewolf saliva (I had him roll the con save three times, since I figured it was a "weaker" way of contracting the curse). He failed all three. So, the hitter's general idea is that the bard will turn, kill his mark, and he'll go on his merry way free and clear, the bard killed once the town guard find out it was on him. Before it's all said and done, another NPC will offer him the chance to "control it". He'll give him something to suppress the curse enough that he can shift, 1x per day and maintain enough of his senses to not be chaotic evil. If he drops below 25% HP, he'll have to make a will save to keep his senses and not attack anyone in the party. Part of the story, they'll have to travel into the Underdark to get some stuff to make a concoction that will eliminate the transmission of the curse via bite.
Very interesting. I do like the idea of anything spiked by lycanthrope blood, spit, etc can give the curse but as a weaker strain. However, I would have just had him make a saving throw each time the target drinks, not really three.
In addition, in order to remove the lycanthrope's curse, a remove curse spell will also work, but you can retcon it to say that this melody is also a cure. However, maybe the creator must make the concoction correct via Survival Check. But if the save fails, you can say the curse gets worse.
That's just my viewpoint on this ability (Which I find very interesting), you are the DM, which means your word, for now, overpowers my word for your campaign.
Good Luck!
I'm playing as a Shifter Echo Knight fighter and due to his backstory I'm thinking that Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter would be an interesting RP choice. Nothing states that Shifters are immune to the Lycan curse, so I assume it's possible. My question is basically, how would a Lycan curse affect a person of Lycan descent? Their shifting doesn't quite reach the Hybrid state that the Curse allows, but essentially they'd have 2 separate transformations.
I'm going to leave the option of Remove Curse, but they're sort of backwoods at the moment. So, to find someone that has it, they'll have to do a bit of traveling since no in the party is classed to get it. The three con saves was to cover the entirety of the cup. Mostly, I think it makes for a neat story and choice.
I'll let you know how it all plays out and if he slaughters the entire party for funsies, or gets his act together, or what have you.
so to the question of magic a lycanthropy transformation is considered a wildshape like when druids transform so if druids can use magic when transformed then so can lycans
In my eyes, the curse will not be canceled by the Shifter's ability. Since one ability is basically improving one's form (the shifter) and the other is a hybrid transformation that is descended from a curse, you will be able to activate them separately, and they do not count as the same transformation. An example to prove my theory is that one can have multiple curses placed upon them or have multiple buffs/magical items that may or may not do the same thing. In that case, the user can choose which item/ability to use because it is not the same ability. However, with a curse, the more prominent one will be active and shown while the lesser curse may still be in effect, or maybe its suppressed by the current curse.
So in conclusion: It's technically up to the player to choose the certain ability they would like to use, however, consult the DM before any decisions are made. It makes the process become smoother and the DM has a pre-sense ahead of time for your abilities. However, they could rule that the abilities are either one or the other.
Best of luck to your Shifter Echo Fighter Order of Lycan PC!
A little side note:
Lycanthropes only effect humanoid, so if bitten in wild shape or any other form, you technically don't get affected by the curse. Since a Shifter is a humanoid, the curse is entirely possible. Humanoids with animal-like traits can be affected by the curse. However, in their form, they have to be humanoid in order for the curse to affect them. So switching from, let's say, druid wild shape is not possible because they aren't technically in human form. In addition, their hybrid form counts as a monstrosity, so in thinking about 2 lycan curses is a bit hard to manage, its like a twin mind at that point a 1v1v1 alignment war.
Druids can't, but lycanthropic transformation isn't a wild shape. The rules for PC lycanthropes specify 'The character can’t speak while in animal form.', which will prevent using anything with a V component, and probably can't wield objects (so no 'M', and maybe no 'S') , but hybrid form has no explicit restrictions, and most of the lycanthropes in the MM use weapons in hybrid form.
Exactly. However, I believe that there have been some instances where a lycan is able to cast spells, but you are entirely correct. However, with the somatic component, I would rule that depending on the animal, it could perform a somatic component. But, with the material and verbal components, they cannot be performed.
Maybe if the animal form was able to speak, via a spell cast on yourself from another player, maybe you can cover the verbal component. But, the material component cannot be used in this state of lycan. Possibly the DM could rule that the materials can be used, but your animal form needs to place them all in one area, or maybe another person needs to hold the materials while you cast the spell.
This is just my take and what makes sense, so don't take it personally, just throwing out some ideas.
The Order of the Lycan hybrid form allows you to speak, use equipment, and wear armor. To me that means you can satisfy VSM and my DM agrees, and nothing in any of the lycanthropy text explicitly states that you can't use magic. Obviously this doesn't apply to a fully shifted form, but OotL doesn't have that ability.