Well-established lore has it that no dragon - meaning no creature of the "dragon" type - can enter Waterdeep due to Ahghairon's dragonward effect created by the Dragonstaff of Ahghairon.
Except the new "2024" Monster Manual of 2025 has changed the creature type of kobolds (and half-dragons) from humanoid to dragon.
Therefore, kobolds (and half-dragons) are now magically excluded from Waterdeep (except those who get a personal exemption, rather unlikely).
Just another glitch from changing previously humanoid creatures away from the humanoid creature type for... reasons.
Will DMs address this by changing the power of the dragonstaff? By ignoring the change in kobold (and half-dragon) creature type? By just pretending not to notice the contradiction?
I wonder what similar unexpected problems might now arise due to goblins being fey, gith and kuo-toa being aberrations, gnolls and sahuagin being fiends, kenku being monstrosities, and lizardfolk (leaders, at least) being elementals (!). I notice that a bunch of these will now be affected by Protection from Evil and Good (fey, fiends, aberrations, elementals) which now includes goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears, gnolls, sahuagin, kuo-toa, and (some) lizardfolk.
Please comment with other perhaps unexpected ramifications of these shifts away from humanoid type (other than the ones everyone already mentioned, like charm/dominate/hold person not working anymore) or ways you might deal with them if they cause problems with existing lore (like Waterdeep's new kobold ban).
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
Also, since they haven't released new FR books in a while, perhaps they'll address the question in the upcoming ones.
Possibly by just saying that the spell, which is entirely worldbuilding fiat with no basis in the rules, can differentiate between actual dragons and mere kobolds. Maybe its definition of dragon is more complicated than a mere creature type.
Which is certainly something you, as a GM, can do if you think it's a problem.
Right. There's lore distinctions between "dragons" and true dragons. However...
Dragons and all other creatures of the dragon type are physically unable to enter the city (or its sewers) as long as the dragonward persists. The effect doesn’t extend to the harbor or into Undermountain.
The dragonward doesn't care. This is from 5e, so it's current information, not old lore.
WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
Suddenly? No, they've been doing it for a while.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Cute, although I don't know who's going to cast that on all their kobold minions or a bunch of sewer kobolds. Clever trick to use on a hostile dragon (or several), though!
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
In previous editions, half dragons had the dragon type rather than the type of their other parent, so that's not really a big change.
I rejoined D&D with 5E, and half dragons have been type Humanoid (human) since the start of 5E with the 2014 Monster Manual, so it is a change for 5E-2024. Whereas kobolds were never type dragon until 2025.
Mass nystul’s aura - yes it’s homebrew and yes it’s higher level but really- do yo really think Xanther doesn’t have a tame mage or three that couldn’t develop and cast it?
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
And you can't just say X humanoid block from the new MM is a Kobold why? That's literally the entire reason they stripped out things like the Drow, Duergar, and Orcs from this one.
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
And you can't just say X humanoid block from the new MM is a Kobold why? That's literally the entire reason they stripped out things like the Drow, Duergar, and Orcs from this one.
That would be one way of handling the contradiction. I never said you couldn't do any particular thing, I just noted that now you have to DO something, because Dragon Heist, for example, as written, has kobolds who go into Waterdeep but if you use the (now) standard MM 2024 stat block they can't. These are MM kobolds, not "kobolds" reskinned as humanoid templates, or vice versa.
Stripping out monster races/species from the MM entirely is different from keeping them in (as they did with kobolds and winged kobolds) and just changing their creature type. Two completely different forms of revision, presumably for different reasons. Also, Drow, Duergar, and Orcs are all medium creatures, which is perhaps why they came up with "kobold warrior" instead of just telling you to use the generic humanoid "warrior infantry" stat block and leaving kobolds out alongside the races/species you mention.
Mass nystul’s aura - yes it’s homebrew and yes it’s higher level but really- do yo really think Xanther doesn’t have a tame mage or three that couldn’t develop and cast it?
Would he go to the trouble? Especially since you'd need arrange to get said mage to cast it every time you sent the kobolds upstairs. Seems like a lot of extra work for the cheapest level of minion presumably utilized for their simplicity & low cost. Might as well just get goblins instead. I mean Xanathar's crazy but not THAT crazy, right?
Mass nystul’s aura - yes it’s homebrew and yes it’s higher level but really- do yo really think Xanther doesn’t have a tame mage or three that couldn’t develop and cast it?
Would he go to the trouble? Especially since you'd need arrange to get said mage to cast it every time you sent the kobolds upstairs. Seems like a lot of extra work for the cheapest level of minion presumably utilized for their simplicity & low cost. Might as well just get goblins instead. I mean Xanathar's crazy but not THAT crazy, right?
He's that crazy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
And you can't just say X humanoid block from the new MM is a Kobold why? That's literally the entire reason they stripped out things like the Drow, Duergar, and Orcs from this one.
That would be one way of handling the contradiction. I never said you couldn't do any particular thing, I just noted that now you have to DO something, because Dragon Heist, for example, as written, has kobolds who go into Waterdeep but if you use the (now) standard MM 2024 stat block they can't. These are MM kobolds, not "kobolds" reskinned as humanoid templates, or vice versa.
Stripping out monster races/species from the MM entirely is different from keeping them in (as they did with kobolds and winged kobolds) and just changing their creature type. Two completely different forms of revision, presumably for different reasons. Also, Drow, Duergar, and Orcs are all medium creatures, which is perhaps why they came up with "kobold warrior" instead of just telling you to use the generic humanoid "warrior infantry" stat block and leaving kobolds out alongside the races/species you mention.
This is a mountain out of a molehill. No, they did not check how every change they made interacts with every single printed adventure. That doesn't mean they're "saying" anything about how these things are supposed to work. Presumably, they expect DMs to exercise a modicum agency and judgement when they encounter a blip like this.
That would be one way of handling the contradiction. I never said you couldn't do any particular thing, I just noted that now you have to DO something, because Dragon Heist, for example, as written, has kobolds who go into Waterdeep but if you use the (now) standard MM 2024 stat block they can't. These are MM kobolds, not "kobolds" reskinned as humanoid templates, or vice versa.
This is only a problem if you insist on making it a problem.
If the ward excludes dragons, and yet there are kobolds in the adventure, obviously the ward doesn't apply to kobolds. (Or to these kobolds, anyway, but likely all kobolds.)
It's even entirely consistent with the lore, since the ward presumably never kept kobolds out before.
(And the ward is still narrative fiat, not natural law. If a GM wants a dragon to get through the ward, the dragon is getting through the ward.)
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
And you can't just say X humanoid block from the new MM is a Kobold why? That's literally the entire reason they stripped out things like the Drow, Duergar, and Orcs from this one.
That would be one way of handling the contradiction. I never said you couldn't do any particular thing, I just noted that now you have to DO something, because Dragon Heist, for example, as written, has kobolds who go into Waterdeep but if you use the (now) standard MM 2024 stat block they can't. These are MM kobolds, not "kobolds" reskinned as humanoid templates, or vice versa.
Stripping out monster races/species from the MM entirely is different from keeping them in (as they did with kobolds and winged kobolds) and just changing their creature type. Two completely different forms of revision, presumably for different reasons. Also, Drow, Duergar, and Orcs are all medium creatures, which is perhaps why they came up with "kobold warrior" instead of just telling you to use the generic humanoid "warrior infantry" stat block and leaving kobolds out alongside the races/species you mention.
This is a mountain out of a molehill. No, they did not check how every change they made interacts with every single printed adventure. That doesn't mean they're "saying" anything about how these things are supposed to work. Presumably, they expect DMs to exercise a modicum agency and judgement when they encounter a blip like this.
Or an Undermountain out of a molehill? You sound like I was complaining. I'm not, I'm just observing that some mechanics have been changed in unannounced and unexpected (and perhaps unnoticed) ways, and seeing if there is any sort of consensus on how DMs will deal with it. It's not just kobolds in Waterdeep, it's how traditional spells, effect or abilities work (or don't), and not just the [blank] person spells, but also ones that now affect monsters they didn't before. The weirdest is how some spells or other effects will differentiate between, say, normal Lizardfolk (still humanoid) and elite Lizardfolk (now elementals), not to even mention some monstrous PCs being humanoid even though their species isn't (anymore). And the many monster changes from humanoid to non-humanoid were clearly a deliberate policy, so presumably they are saying something about how things should work - but what that something is, isn't yet clear (at least, not to me) in some of these cases.
Of course DMs can exercise agency & judgement, but what I am looking for is if there is going to be any kind of consistency around tables. Or how, for example, (semi)official systems like DDAL might handle this. (I was playing DDAL adventures set in Waterdeep at a con this past February). As DMs we can always vary from RAW but first I like to actually know what RAW is, and how it was intended to work, before I go around ignoring/changing it.
Kobolds and dragonborn simply fall under the staff's radar because it was designed to repel their much larger and more powerful cousins. Basically, the staff is designed to repel what most people would consider a true dragon and their closest of kin, not tiny lizard people.
Kobolds and dragonborn simply fall under the staff's radar because it was designed to repel their much larger and more powerful cousins. Basically, the staff is designed to repel what most people would consider a true dragon and their closest of kin, not tiny lizard people.
That's certainly one way to do it. Although it varies from how RAW about creature type works, or how the lore was written. Keep in mind that Pseudodragons and Faerie Dragons were always of type "dragon" and despite not being much of a threat to Waterdeep, did not have a "tiny" exemption, even though they are actually size Tiny, not merely small like a kobold. (And half-dragons, who have also transitioned from humanoid to dragon type, can actually be rather dangerous, compared to wee kobolds).
Dragonborn, ironically, are still of type humanoid despite being more dragon-ish than kobolds: they have breath weapons and matching resistance, any of them 5th level or higher can fly with wings, etc. Yet as non-dragons they are still unaffected by the staff without any fudging.
In my own games I am leaning toward leaving kobolds as humanoids rather than dragons, or allowing some creatures to have more than one type for certain effects. (Half-dragons I could see being affected by the staff).
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Well-established lore has it that no dragon - meaning no creature of the "dragon" type - can enter Waterdeep due to Ahghairon's dragonward effect created by the Dragonstaff of Ahghairon.
Except the new "2024" Monster Manual of 2025 has changed the creature type of kobolds (and half-dragons) from humanoid to dragon.
Therefore, kobolds (and half-dragons) are now magically excluded from Waterdeep (except those who get a personal exemption, rather unlikely).
Just another glitch from changing previously humanoid creatures away from the humanoid creature type for... reasons.
Will DMs address this by changing the power of the dragonstaff? By ignoring the change in kobold (and half-dragon) creature type? By just pretending not to notice the contradiction?
I wonder what similar unexpected problems might now arise due to goblins being fey, gith and kuo-toa being aberrations, gnolls and sahuagin being fiends, kenku being monstrosities, and lizardfolk (leaders, at least) being elementals (!). I notice that a bunch of these will now be affected by Protection from Evil and Good (fey, fiends, aberrations, elementals) which now includes goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears, gnolls, sahuagin, kuo-toa, and (some) lizardfolk.
Please comment with other perhaps unexpected ramifications of these shifts away from humanoid type (other than the ones everyone already mentioned, like charm/dominate/hold person not working anymore) or ways you might deal with them if they cause problems with existing lore (like Waterdeep's new kobold ban).
Nystul's Magic Aura
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Considering monster entries have always been distinct from player races, and DMs have always been able to use player races to create NPCs, nothing has actually changed. Eladrin got stat blocks in MToF that were Fey but the PC race options remained humanoid as an elven subrace, and MoTM continued the same categorization when it retooled both of them, which included making Eladrin a wholly separate race block rather than just subrace stats for the main elf race block. WotC has not suddenly revoked the humanoid license of any player race.
Also, since they haven't released new FR books in a while, perhaps they'll address the question in the upcoming ones.
Possibly by just saying that the spell, which is entirely worldbuilding fiat with no basis in the rules, can differentiate between actual dragons and mere kobolds. Maybe its definition of dragon is more complicated than a mere creature type.
Which is certainly something you, as a GM, can do if you think it's a problem.
Right. There's lore distinctions between "dragons" and true dragons. However...
The dragonward doesn't care. This is from 5e, so it's current information, not old lore.
Suddenly? No, they've been doing it for a while.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In previous editions, half dragons had the dragon type rather than the type of their other parent, so that's not really a big change.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Cute, although I don't know who's going to cast that on all their kobold minions or a bunch of sewer kobolds. Clever trick to use on a hostile dragon (or several), though!
I was thinking mainly in terms of monsters from the MM2024, not monstrous PCs; kobolds are minions of Xanathar in Skullport and sometimes get sent into the city proper, as in Dragon Heist. The new 2024 rules have not yet addressed the creature type of monsters as PC races (or species), and none of the 2024 species have non-humanoid versions in the MM or other 2024 monster stat blocks. It remains to be seen if 2024 will handle monstrous PCs by treating them as humanoid variants instead of the MM creature type. But again, I am mainly considering the ramifications for monsters (or NPCs).
I rejoined D&D with 5E, and half dragons have been type Humanoid (human) since the start of 5E with the 2014 Monster Manual, so it is a change for 5E-2024. Whereas kobolds were never type dragon until 2025.
Mass nystul’s aura - yes it’s homebrew and yes it’s higher level but really- do yo really think Xanther doesn’t have a tame mage or three that couldn’t develop and cast it?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
And you can't just say X humanoid block from the new MM is a Kobold why? That's literally the entire reason they stripped out things like the Drow, Duergar, and Orcs from this one.
That would be one way of handling the contradiction. I never said you couldn't do any particular thing, I just noted that now you have to DO something, because Dragon Heist, for example, as written, has kobolds who go into Waterdeep but if you use the (now) standard MM 2024 stat block they can't. These are MM kobolds, not "kobolds" reskinned as humanoid templates, or vice versa.
Stripping out monster races/species from the MM entirely is different from keeping them in (as they did with kobolds and winged kobolds) and just changing their creature type. Two completely different forms of revision, presumably for different reasons. Also, Drow, Duergar, and Orcs are all medium creatures, which is perhaps why they came up with "kobold warrior" instead of just telling you to use the generic humanoid "warrior infantry" stat block and leaving kobolds out alongside the races/species you mention.
Would he go to the trouble? Especially since you'd need arrange to get said mage to cast it every time you sent the kobolds upstairs. Seems like a lot of extra work for the cheapest level of minion presumably utilized for their simplicity & low cost. Might as well just get goblins instead. I mean Xanathar's crazy but not THAT crazy, right?
He's that crazy.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This is a mountain out of a molehill. No, they did not check how every change they made interacts with every single printed adventure. That doesn't mean they're "saying" anything about how these things are supposed to work. Presumably, they expect DMs to exercise a modicum agency and judgement when they encounter a blip like this.
This is only a problem if you insist on making it a problem.
If the ward excludes dragons, and yet there are kobolds in the adventure, obviously the ward doesn't apply to kobolds. (Or to these kobolds, anyway, but likely all kobolds.)
It's even entirely consistent with the lore, since the ward presumably never kept kobolds out before.
(And the ward is still narrative fiat, not natural law. If a GM wants a dragon to get through the ward, the dragon is getting through the ward.)
Or an Undermountain out of a molehill? You sound like I was complaining. I'm not, I'm just observing that some mechanics have been changed in unannounced and unexpected (and perhaps unnoticed) ways, and seeing if there is any sort of consensus on how DMs will deal with it. It's not just kobolds in Waterdeep, it's how traditional spells, effect or abilities work (or don't), and not just the [blank] person spells, but also ones that now affect monsters they didn't before. The weirdest is how some spells or other effects will differentiate between, say, normal Lizardfolk (still humanoid) and elite Lizardfolk (now elementals), not to even mention some monstrous PCs being humanoid even though their species isn't (anymore). And the many monster changes from humanoid to non-humanoid were clearly a deliberate policy, so presumably they are saying something about how things should work - but what that something is, isn't yet clear (at least, not to me) in some of these cases.
Of course DMs can exercise agency & judgement, but what I am looking for is if there is going to be any kind of consistency around tables. Or how, for example, (semi)official systems like DDAL might handle this. (I was playing DDAL adventures set in Waterdeep at a con this past February). As DMs we can always vary from RAW but first I like to actually know what RAW is, and how it was intended to work, before I go around ignoring/changing it.
Kobolds and dragonborn simply fall under the staff's radar because it was designed to repel their much larger and more powerful cousins. Basically, the staff is designed to repel what most people would consider a true dragon and their closest of kin, not tiny lizard people.
That's certainly one way to do it. Although it varies from how RAW about creature type works, or how the lore was written. Keep in mind that Pseudodragons and Faerie Dragons were always of type "dragon" and despite not being much of a threat to Waterdeep, did not have a "tiny" exemption, even though they are actually size Tiny, not merely small like a kobold. (And half-dragons, who have also transitioned from humanoid to dragon type, can actually be rather dangerous, compared to wee kobolds).
Dragonborn, ironically, are still of type humanoid despite being more dragon-ish than kobolds: they have breath weapons and matching resistance, any of them 5th level or higher can fly with wings, etc. Yet as non-dragons they are still unaffected by the staff without any fudging.
In my own games I am leaning toward leaving kobolds as humanoids rather than dragons, or allowing some creatures to have more than one type for certain effects. (Half-dragons I could see being affected by the staff).