Ok let's assume that I cast Entangle on a bunch of kobolds. Then a party meber or I use spells like Thorn whip or Gust of wind. These spells push or pull the target by a certain amount of feet after a failed save.
The question is: What happend to restrained targets by the Entangle spell? Are they pushed? They remain on the same spot? It's like a contest between the two spell?
Start by going with spell level to decide which spell 'wins'. Then go by caster save DC to see who is a more powerful spellcaster. Lastly, if all of the above ends in a tie, go with the intentions of the casters. If an enemy of equal spell save DC and spell level has entangled your friendly NPC and you are trying to gust of wind them out of the area, roll contested checks with your spell stats.
I can't find it for reference, but I read a post on reddit about this, that came to the following conclusion:
The entangle spell provides for STRENGTH checks to be made to free the target. If it's a spell that's being used to try to free the target, such as gust of wind, then that spell is generating a replacement strength check.
As such, have the caster of Gust of Wind generate an effect total: d20 + proficiency + spellcast stat bonus. This acts as a Strength saving throw vs the DC of the Entangle spell.
E.g.
A 1st level druid casts entangle on a target. The saving throw DC is 8 + prof + stat bonus. Let's assume stat bonus of +3 here, so a total of 13.
Then someone else casts Gust of Wind, to push the target free. The Gust of Wind spell generates a "strength save" total of d20 + prof + stat bonus. Assuming same proficiency and stat bonus between the casters, that means the caster fo Gust of Wind needs to roll an 8 or higher to succeed.
I can't find it for reference, but I read a post on reddit about this, that came to the following conclusion:
The entangle spell provides for STRENGTH checks to be made to free the target. If it's a spell that's being used to try to free the target, such as gust of wind, then that spell is generating a replacement strength check.
As such, have the caster of Gust of Wind generate an effect total: d20 + proficiency + spellcast stat bonus. This acts as a Strength saving throw vs the DC of the Entangle spell.
E.g.
A 1st level druid casts entangle on a target. The saving throw DC is 8 + prof + stat bonus. Let's assume stat bonus of +3 here, so a total of 13.
Then someone else casts Gust of Wind, to push the target free. The Gust of Wind spell generates a "strength save" total of d20 + prof + stat bonus. Assuming same proficiency and stat bonus between the casters, that means the caster fo Gust of Wind needs to roll an 8 or higher to succeed.
That was my thought as well. So basically you do a "spell attack roll" against the Entangle DC.
As written, the rule doesn't have any conflict - the restrained condition makes the target's speed 0, which means he can't use his move to... well, move. It doesn't stop any other effect from moving them.
I suspect the Entangle spell is weird in this case because the description mentions vines coming from the ground to tangle the target - vines are usually rooted, so how do you move someone tangled like that? Compare to a target that's restrained because he's been bound with a rope, or is cocooned in spiderwebs that aren't attached anywhere. Now a gust of wind or thorn whip doesn't seem like much of an issue, does it?
That said, I'd also go with the spell conflict in this case. It makes more sense to me, even if it can be argued that the entangle spell ties up the target and the vines break off - but remain tied to said target - when forcibly moved.
As written, the rule doesn't have any conflict - the restrained condition makes the target's speed 0, which means he can't use his move to... well, move. It doesn't stop any other effect from moving them.
I suspect the Entangle spell is weird in this case because the description mentions vines coming from the ground to tangle the target - vines are usually rooted, so how do you move someone tangled like that? Compare to a target that's restrained because he's been bound with a rope, or is cocooned in spiderwebs that aren't attached anywhere. Now a gust of wind or thorn whip doesn't seem like much of an issue, does it?
That said, I'd also go with the spell conflict in this case. It makes more sense to me, even if it can be argued that the entangle spell ties up the target and the vines break off - but remain tied to said target - when forcibly moved.
Well technically the effect of Gust of wind are not a movement per se. The target is forced to "move". I very much like "contest" situations, so I'd stay for the spell contest resolution.
Strictly RAW, entangle doesn't do anything to prevent forced movement. It just sets the creatures natural movement to 0. Furthermore, the conditions of breaking free of the restraint is a strength check or when the spell ends. There is no mention of the restraint ending if moved out of the original area.
Easiest way to envision it is the vines being ripped from the ground when forced movement happened, but because of magic they continue to tie knots around the victim.
Just a thought (new to d&d so this is beginners logic), if they can't move because of entangle and get hit with something that should push them, shouldn't they be knocked over? Maybe this is more for a homebrew but maybe you knock them down with it and now they need a strength check to get up as well as another to break free from the spell.
Granted, you need 2 people to do this. Both spells are concentration spells.
It would appear that Entangle creates plants from the ground that can restrain a creature that is in the area when the spell is cast (this is the important part). The ground becomes difficult terrain. Notice the plants only restrain a creature in the area when the spell is first cast. This means the plants basically go around the person. I suspect it is irrelevant whether or not the plants remain in the ground or not as they are still wrapped around a creature.
Interesting to note that Entangle does not provide any penalties to str checks. This could mean that a player could still make a strength check to avoid moving with the gust of wind. So I would say if you view Entangle as coming from the ground, it should grant advantage on the Strength check to remain in place as nothing is preventing you from making your own strength check. (therefore I would say a contest between the spells isn't exactly right, as nothing prevents the Player from making their own strength check. If it was a Dex check, then I'd say that would be up for debate since entangle grants disadvantage on dex checks.)
I'd probably lean to giving you advantage on the Strength check because the pants are in the ground and they aren't allowing you to move. If they weren't in the ground and just wrapped around you theoretically you could still hop, roll, jump, etc. Since the spell doesn't say you automatically fail any save, I would say you could still make a strength check to see if gust of wind moves you or not.
Well technically the effect of Gust of wind are not a movement per se. The target is forced to "move".
This is exactly why it doesn't conflict with Entangle. Pushing or other forms of forced movement does not take your movement speed or the limitations thereof into account, so Entangle's effect of making your Move 0 wouldn't prevent it.
That said, I will reiterate that in this specific case, I'd go for contest as well. :p
And come to think of it, Ledesh' idea sounds like a logical conclusion as well, if Entangle wins.
If you were tied to a metal post in the ground, would gust of wind cause you to move backward even though you technically can't move? I think this is where the interpretation of entangle comes into play. If you view entangle as coming out of the ground, and so the roots of the vines are stuck in the ground, it doesn't make since you can just simply move. If the spell comes from the ground and doesn't stay in the ground, then it seems like it wouldn't come into play.
At the risk of essentially repeating what others have already said, my take would be thus:
" Grasping weeds and vines sprout from the ground in a 20-foot square starting from a point within range. For the duration, these plants turn the ground in the area into difficult terrain.
...
A creature in the area when you cast the spell must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the entangling plants until the spell ends. A creature restrained by the plants can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, it frees itself.
"
It seems pretty clear to me, by the above quoted language, that the intent is for the entangling plants to remain in the affected area. Because there's nothing in the restrained condition that would prevent forced movement, however, I would have to say, if run strictly by letter and and initial intent of the rule, forced movement out of the area of the entangleeffect would end the entangle for any affected creatures.
The rules being guidelines and the quality and rhythm of the game taking priority, however, I would cast my vote for an opposed check of some kind as well. Whether you use the "spell attack roll vs spell save DC" mechanic or some other method, something along those lines just seems like a more satisfying result and leaves a better taste in my mouth.
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Talked to my DM about this and he seems to be on the side of higher spell level wins most times. It sounds like he thinks the gust would blow away the entangle, which I think is wrong. I need to talk to home more on that.
But I am starting to think that there may need to be more to it. Especially with the strength saving throw for gust of wind.
What if it was 2 checks? If the character entangled gets gusted then make a Str save. If they win they are still entangled but they gust dose not effect them. If they lose the entangle makes a spell save to see if the gust blows them out of it otherwise they fall over and get grappled to the ground or something. Then they have to make a save to get up and another to get out.
The bad part about that is if it happens to the PC. Yeah it's a cool when you do it but man would it suck if you where hit with that combo
The hypothesis is that the character fails both saves: the Entangle save and the Gust of wind save. Because of the first failure the character is restrained. Because of the second failure, he/she should be pushed. But it is the character which is casting Gust of wind that must make a "check" to see if wins over the Entangle spell.
Since entangle only entangles those in the area when the spell is cast and remains in the ground, it makes since that you are entangled because the vines grow around you. Thus the vines are stuck in the ground.
Since you have a movement of 0 it seems like you should automatically fail as you have no means to prevent the gust of wind from blowing you back. However the vines are physically keeping you from moving and are in the ground.
So I'd say advantage on the strength check to keep from moving as the vines help you remain in place. As far as I can think there is no easy way to handle two spells that auto hit and conflict with each other.
Entangle states: "A creature in the area when you cast the spell must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the entangling plants until the spell ends." Must the saving throw be performed by each creature in the 20 foot square? Or is only one creature in the square affected? It says "a creature" not each creature, so it is unclear. Please help me understand this...
Language is important. Entangle results in the creature being restrained by plants coming out of the ground and are low enough to move through with a little difficulty. Gust of wind forces movement on a failed save for a creature. The entanglement is not a creature and is therefore, RAW, not directly influenced by gust of wind.
If you're bound in place by an object like ropes or vines, it makes little to no sense to assume that a forced movement would result in the creature being moved. Further, the terrain is difficult, which means you lose movement speed. All movement in game is assuming normal movement conditions, which means that the gust of wind ability is pushing you back 15 feet on normal terrain. It also makes no mention of knocking you through the air or knocking you prone, which means you're basically pushed while standing.
So, all of this together:
You're rooted in place by vines, you have a strong wind trying to scoot you in a direction.
Logically speaking the most obvious real life result of this is you being blown over and knocked prone on a failed save because you're being physically rooted by your feet to the ground and the wind isn't blowing on your full body as it would in normal conditions.
That said, if the DM wants to allow for the gust to break the creature free, then a contested STR roll is going to be necessary, since the entanglement is actively working against the creature and it's not on the creatures turn (unless the action was prepped) the save should be at disadvantage. And upon success, you still must deal with rough terrain, which means your movment is halved, so 7.5 feet, which is rounded down to 5 feet.
So basically you are blowing a spell slot to attempt to break someone free of some vines for 5 feet of movement. It's not a good play by my estimation, you'd be better off just waltzing in and assisting them on breaking out and save the spell slot for better things.
My current understanding of the game and its rules are that setting your speed to 0 has no effect on any change in position that doesn't require you to expend your movement (so called "forced movement effects"). Gust of wind absolutely works to push entangled creatures because the restrained condition only affects how a creature can use its own speed.
I am not a fan of that interpretation because it completely disregards the context of the situation. You are so entangled in vines that you have to make a strength check to break yourself free, but an external force can disregard this entirely. I have a hard time accepting the game mechanics were meant to work that way.
Someone else is manacled to the wall and restrained? Easy. I'll just shove them out of the jail because they are the ones restrained, not me.
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Ok let's assume that I cast Entangle on a bunch of kobolds. Then a party meber or I use spells like Thorn whip or Gust of wind. These spells push or pull the target by a certain amount of feet after a failed save.
The question is: What happend to restrained targets by the Entangle spell? Are they pushed? They remain on the same spot? It's like a contest between the two spell?
My uninformed suggestion after reading this:
Start by going with spell level to decide which spell 'wins'. Then go by caster save DC to see who is a more powerful spellcaster. Lastly, if all of the above ends in a tie, go with the intentions of the casters. If an enemy of equal spell save DC and spell level has entangled your friendly NPC and you are trying to gust of wind them out of the area, roll contested checks with your spell stats.
That's my take!
I can't find it for reference, but I read a post on reddit about this, that came to the following conclusion:
The entangle spell provides for STRENGTH checks to be made to free the target. If it's a spell that's being used to try to free the target, such as gust of wind, then that spell is generating a replacement strength check.
As such, have the caster of Gust of Wind generate an effect total: d20 + proficiency + spellcast stat bonus. This acts as a Strength saving throw vs the DC of the Entangle spell.
E.g.
A 1st level druid casts entangle on a target. The saving throw DC is 8 + prof + stat bonus. Let's assume stat bonus of +3 here, so a total of 13.
Then someone else casts Gust of Wind, to push the target free. The Gust of Wind spell generates a "strength save" total of d20 + prof + stat bonus. Assuming same proficiency and stat bonus between the casters, that means the caster fo Gust of Wind needs to roll an 8 or higher to succeed.
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As written, the rule doesn't have any conflict - the restrained condition makes the target's speed 0, which means he can't use his move to... well, move. It doesn't stop any other effect from moving them.
I suspect the Entangle spell is weird in this case because the description mentions vines coming from the ground to tangle the target - vines are usually rooted, so how do you move someone tangled like that? Compare to a target that's restrained because he's been bound with a rope, or is cocooned in spiderwebs that aren't attached anywhere. Now a gust of wind or thorn whip doesn't seem like much of an issue, does it?
That said, I'd also go with the spell conflict in this case. It makes more sense to me, even if it can be argued that the entangle spell ties up the target and the vines break off - but remain tied to said target - when forcibly moved.
Strictly RAW, entangle doesn't do anything to prevent forced movement. It just sets the creatures natural movement to 0. Furthermore, the conditions of breaking free of the restraint is a strength check or when the spell ends. There is no mention of the restraint ending if moved out of the original area.
Easiest way to envision it is the vines being ripped from the ground when forced movement happened, but because of magic they continue to tie knots around the victim.
Just a thought (new to d&d so this is beginners logic), if they can't move because of entangle and get hit with something that should push them, shouldn't they be knocked over? Maybe this is more for a homebrew but maybe you knock them down with it and now they need a strength check to get up as well as another to break free from the spell.
Granted, you need 2 people to do this. Both spells are concentration spells.
It would appear that Entangle creates plants from the ground that can restrain a creature that is in the area when the spell is cast (this is the important part). The ground becomes difficult terrain. Notice the plants only restrain a creature in the area when the spell is first cast. This means the plants basically go around the person. I suspect it is irrelevant whether or not the plants remain in the ground or not as they are still wrapped around a creature.
Interesting to note that Entangle does not provide any penalties to str checks. This could mean that a player could still make a strength check to avoid moving with the gust of wind. So I would say if you view Entangle as coming from the ground, it should grant advantage on the Strength check to remain in place as nothing is preventing you from making your own strength check. (therefore I would say a contest between the spells isn't exactly right, as nothing prevents the Player from making their own strength check. If it was a Dex check, then I'd say that would be up for debate since entangle grants disadvantage on dex checks.)
I'd probably lean to giving you advantage on the Strength check because the pants are in the ground and they aren't allowing you to move. If they weren't in the ground and just wrapped around you theoretically you could still hop, roll, jump, etc. Since the spell doesn't say you automatically fail any save, I would say you could still make a strength check to see if gust of wind moves you or not.
If you were tied to a metal post in the ground, would gust of wind cause you to move backward even though you technically can't move? I think this is where the interpretation of entangle comes into play. If you view entangle as coming out of the ground, and so the roots of the vines are stuck in the ground, it doesn't make since you can just simply move. If the spell comes from the ground and doesn't stay in the ground, then it seems like it wouldn't come into play.
At the risk of essentially repeating what others have already said, my take would be thus:
"
Grasping weeds and vines sprout from the ground in a 20-foot square starting from a point within range. For the duration, these plants turn the ground in the area into difficult terrain.
...
A creature in the area when you cast the spell must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the entangling plants until the spell ends. A creature restrained by the plants can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, it frees itself.
"
It seems pretty clear to me, by the above quoted language, that the intent is for the entangling plants to remain in the affected area. Because there's nothing in the restrained condition that would prevent forced movement, however, I would have to say, if run strictly by letter and and initial intent of the rule, forced movement out of the area of the entangle effect would end the entangle for any affected creatures.
The rules being guidelines and the quality and rhythm of the game taking priority, however, I would cast my vote for an opposed check of some kind as well. Whether you use the "spell attack roll vs spell save DC" mechanic or some other method, something along those lines just seems like a more satisfying result and leaves a better taste in my mouth.
Talked to my DM about this and he seems to be on the side of higher spell level wins most times. It sounds like he thinks the gust would blow away the entangle, which I think is wrong. I need to talk to home more on that.
But I am starting to think that there may need to be more to it. Especially with the strength saving throw for gust of wind.
What if it was 2 checks? If the character entangled gets gusted then make a Str save. If they win they are still entangled but they gust dose not effect them. If they lose the entangle makes a spell save to see if the gust blows them out of it otherwise they fall over and get grappled to the ground or something. Then they have to make a save to get up and another to get out.
The bad part about that is if it happens to the PC. Yeah it's a cool when you do it but man would it suck if you where hit with that combo
The hypothesis is that the character fails both saves: the Entangle save and the Gust of wind save. Because of the first failure the character is restrained. Because of the second failure, he/she should be pushed. But it is the character which is casting Gust of wind that must make a "check" to see if wins over the Entangle spell.
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Since entangle only entangles those in the area when the spell is cast and remains in the ground, it makes since that you are entangled because the vines grow around you. Thus the vines are stuck in the ground.
Since you have a movement of 0 it seems like you should automatically fail as you have no means to prevent the gust of wind from blowing you back. However the vines are physically keeping you from moving and are in the ground.
So I'd say advantage on the strength check to keep from moving as the vines help you remain in place. As far as I can think there is no easy way to handle two spells that auto hit and conflict with each other.
Entangle states: "A creature in the area when you cast the spell must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the entangling plants until the spell ends." Must the saving throw be performed by each creature in the 20 foot square? Or is only one creature in the square affected? It says "a creature" not each creature, so it is unclear. Please help me understand this...
Just wanted to weigh in.
Language is important. Entangle results in the creature being restrained by plants coming out of the ground and are low enough to move through with a little difficulty. Gust of wind forces movement on a failed save for a creature. The entanglement is not a creature and is therefore, RAW, not directly influenced by gust of wind.
If you're bound in place by an object like ropes or vines, it makes little to no sense to assume that a forced movement would result in the creature being moved. Further, the terrain is difficult, which means you lose movement speed. All movement in game is assuming normal movement conditions, which means that the gust of wind ability is pushing you back 15 feet on normal terrain. It also makes no mention of knocking you through the air or knocking you prone, which means you're basically pushed while standing.
So, all of this together:
You're rooted in place by vines, you have a strong wind trying to scoot you in a direction.
Logically speaking the most obvious real life result of this is you being blown over and knocked prone on a failed save because you're being physically rooted by your feet to the ground and the wind isn't blowing on your full body as it would in normal conditions.
That said, if the DM wants to allow for the gust to break the creature free, then a contested STR roll is going to be necessary, since the entanglement is actively working against the creature and it's not on the creatures turn (unless the action was prepped) the save should be at disadvantage. And upon success, you still must deal with rough terrain, which means your movment is halved, so 7.5 feet, which is rounded down to 5 feet.
So basically you are blowing a spell slot to attempt to break someone free of some vines for 5 feet of movement. It's not a good play by my estimation, you'd be better off just waltzing in and assisting them on breaking out and save the spell slot for better things.
Gust of Wind has a range of 60 feet. Not too many folk can move that far and assist.
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This is a rather old thread to dig up.
My current understanding of the game and its rules are that setting your speed to 0 has no effect on any change in position that doesn't require you to expend your movement (so called "forced movement effects"). Gust of wind absolutely works to push entangled creatures because the restrained condition only affects how a creature can use its own speed.
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I am not a fan of that interpretation because it completely disregards the context of the situation. You are so entangled in vines that you have to make a strength check to break yourself free, but an external force can disregard this entirely. I have a hard time accepting the game mechanics were meant to work that way.
Someone else is manacled to the wall and restrained? Easy. I'll just shove them out of the jail because they are the ones restrained, not me.
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