The description of wild shape says that HP are retained when a druid changes form. However, the druid's Con changes to that of the chosen beast when in wild shape. Am I correct in interpreting the HP text literally that total HP does not change in wild shape even though the druid's Con changes? If so, then I assume this is simply to avoid the recalculation of HP every time a druid changes form. However, melee and spell attack bonuses and spell DCs need to be recalculated, so...
The description of wild shape says that HP are retained when a druid changes form. However, the druid's Con changes to that of the chosen beast when in wild shape. Am I correct in interpreting the HP text literally that total HP does not change in wild shape even though the druid's Con changes? If so, then I assume this is simply to avoid the recalculation of HP every time a druid changes form. However, melee and spell attack bonuses and spell DCs need to be recalculated, so...
Regarding Proficiency Bonus:
Game Statistics. Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.
Your PB isn't used beyond the highlighted sentence, so you don't need to recalculate any bonuses.
And for attacks, you should use the information from the stat block if you use those actions.
The description of wild shape says that HP are retained when a druid changes form. However, the druid's Con changes to that of the chosen beast when in wild shape. Am I correct in interpreting the HP text literally that total HP does not change in wild shape even though the druid's Con changes? If so, then I assume this is simply to avoid the recalculation of HP every time a druid changes form. However, melee and spell attack bonuses and spell DCs need to be recalculated, so...
Regarding Proficiency Bonus:
Game Statistics. Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.
Your PB isn't used beyond the highlighted sentence, so you don't need to recalculate any bonuses.
And for attacks, you should use the information from the stat block if you use those actions.
So your suggesting the character's PB instead of the beast's PB would be used for spell DC (ie, the latter would not be recalculated after entering beast form)? I have seen arguments to the contrary since PB can be viewed as a function of character level instead of being a class feature, and it is included in the beast's stat block (which generally replaces the character's game statistics).
Spellcasting is a class feature (EDIT: from the quoted rule: "you retain your class features"), so if you're able to cast a spell while shape-shifted, you follow the rules for spellcasting in chapter 7:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus (EDIT: character's PB)
Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus (EDIT: character's PB)
Just out of curiosity, where did you see those arguments?
I'll pull it in a bit. There was a discussion on here a couple of weeks ago. Strongest arguments presented were that RAW PB follows character (not class) level and therefore is replaced with beast stat. I had also asked this question to D&D RAW, a Facebook discussion group about RAW, and got a similar interpretation.
Skill proficiencies and saves clearly do not change. The point of contention has been about PB applied to spell attack rolls and save DC and, to a lesser degree, melee attack rolls (for which there is more armament to indicate WoTC's intent is that the beast's PB is used). I don't have a dog in the race and would love any arguments supporting the ability of moon druids to effectively cast spells while in wild shape form.
Am I correct in interpreting the HP text literally that total HP does not change in wild shape even though the druid's Con changes?
In 2014, the relationship between the CON score and the max HP was described like this:
Hit Points
Your Constitution modifier contributes to your hit points. Typically, you add your Constitution modifier to each Hit Die you roll for your hit points.
If your Constitution modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well, as though you had the new modifier from 1st level. For example, if you raise your Constitution score when you reach 4th level and your Constitution modifier increases from +1 to +2, you adjust your hit point maximum as though the modifier had always been +2. So you add 3 hit points for your first three levels, and then roll your hit points for 4th level using your new modifier. Or if you're 7th level and some effect lowers your Constitution score so as to reduce your Constitution modifier by 1, your hit point maximum is reduced by 7.
In 2024, the closest thing that we have to the above rule is in the Character Creation section within the procedures for Gaining a Level:
Adjust Ability Modifiers. If you choose a feat that increases one or more of your ability scores, your ability modifier also changes if the new score is an even number. When that happens, adjust all the numbers on your character sheet that use that ability modifier. When your Constitution modifier increases by 1, your Hit Point maximum increases by 1 for each level you have attained. For example, if a character reaches level 8 and increases their Constitution score from 17 to 18, the Constitution modifier increases to +4. The character’s Hit Point maximum then increases by 8, in addition to the Hit Points gained for reaching level 8.
The concept of having your Hit Point Maximum lowered when your Constitution score is lowered has been removed from the above description. Such a concept no longer appears anywhere in the rules -- that mechanic seems to have been eliminated from the game.
In addition, the general concept of having your Hit Point Maximum raised whenever your Constitution score is raised also seems to have been eliminated from the game. The above procedure is now a specific procedure that you follow when you level up and choose a Feat that raises an ability score instead of a more general relationship where any change in the Constitution score results in a corresponding change in the Hit Point Maximum. If your CON isn't raised due to the exact reason that is described above and is instead raised for any other reason, then there will be no change in the Hit Point Maximum when that CON score changes. This is new for the 2024 rules and represents a pretty big departure from how this has always worked in this game for many decades.
Skill proficiencies and saves clearly do not change. The point of contention has been about PB applied to spell attack rolls and save DC and, to a lesser degree, melee attack rolls (for which there is more armament to indicate WoTC's intent is that the beast's PB is used). I don't have a dog in the race and would love any arguments supporting the ability of moon druids to effectively cast spells while in wild shape form.
Until we get clarification there won't be a solid answer, and I'd suggest running it whatever way makes the most sense at your table.
Spellcasting is a class feature so you retain it, does that mean you retain its PB, personally I'd roll with yes as wild shape has taken enough hits as is and its not a clear no. But since they gave a specific list of where you retain your PB, there is a solid argument that while you retain the class feature of casting spells how its DCs and spell attack bonuses are calculated is based on a PB, a PB you do not retain for spellcasting as its not on the list. But I am biased in that I think it was an error on their part to not have wild shape always use the players PB. It doesn't matter much but for moon, but moon druids lose way too much accuracy to be effective in their forms.
[...] It doesn't matter much but for moon, but moon druids lose way too much accuracy to be effective in their forms.
That's a point I didn't mention, but I agree. Let the player have fun with their classes.
Another thing I was thinking, but it's more like a personal/lore take: if your Spellcasting Ability is Wisdom, and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are the same while shape-shifted, then your mystical connection to nature you use for casting spells shouldn't be affected just because you're in a different form.
The description of wild shape says that HP are retained when a druid changes form. However, the druid's Con changes to that of the chosen beast when in wild shape. Am I correct in interpreting the HP text literally that total HP does not change in wild shape even though the druid's Con changes? If so, then I assume this is simply to avoid the recalculation of HP every time a druid changes form. However, melee and spell attack bonuses and spell DCs need to be recalculated, so...
Regarding Proficiency Bonus:
Your PB isn't used beyond the highlighted sentence, so you don't need to recalculate any bonuses.
And for attacks, you should use the information from the stat block if you use those actions.
So your suggesting the character's PB instead of the beast's PB would be used for spell DC (ie, the latter would not be recalculated after entering beast form)? I have seen arguments to the contrary since PB can be viewed as a function of character level instead of being a class feature, and it is included in the beast's stat block (which generally replaces the character's game statistics).
Spellcasting is a class feature (EDIT: from the quoted rule: "you retain your class features"), so if you're able to cast a spell while shape-shifted, you follow the rules for spellcasting in chapter 7:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus (EDIT: character's PB)
Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus (EDIT: character's PB)
Just out of curiosity, where did you see those arguments?
I'll pull it in a bit. There was a discussion on here a couple of weeks ago. Strongest arguments presented were that RAW PB follows character (not class) level and therefore is replaced with beast stat. I had also asked this question to D&D RAW, a Facebook discussion group about RAW, and got a similar interpretation.
This thread.
Thank you Jurmondur!
I don't understand the rules the way some people are arguing in that post, Xeyd, sorry.
Others gave the same explanation I did above.
Under the 2014 rules, I was ruling the same way regarding skill proficiencies: Are the skill proficiencies recalculated when the druid Wild Shape?
EDIT: for clarity.
Skill proficiencies and saves clearly do not change. The point of contention has been about PB applied to spell attack rolls and save DC and, to a lesser degree, melee attack rolls (for which there is more armament to indicate WoTC's intent is that the beast's PB is used). I don't have a dog in the race and would love any arguments supporting the ability of moon druids to effectively cast spells while in wild shape form.
In 2014, the relationship between the CON score and the max HP was described like this:
In 2024, the closest thing that we have to the above rule is in the Character Creation section within the procedures for Gaining a Level:
The concept of having your Hit Point Maximum lowered when your Constitution score is lowered has been removed from the above description. Such a concept no longer appears anywhere in the rules -- that mechanic seems to have been eliminated from the game.
In addition, the general concept of having your Hit Point Maximum raised whenever your Constitution score is raised also seems to have been eliminated from the game. The above procedure is now a specific procedure that you follow when you level up and choose a Feat that raises an ability score instead of a more general relationship where any change in the Constitution score results in a corresponding change in the Hit Point Maximum. If your CON isn't raised due to the exact reason that is described above and is instead raised for any other reason, then there will be no change in the Hit Point Maximum when that CON score changes. This is new for the 2024 rules and represents a pretty big departure from how this has always worked in this game for many decades.
Until we get clarification there won't be a solid answer, and I'd suggest running it whatever way makes the most sense at your table.
Spellcasting is a class feature so you retain it, does that mean you retain its PB, personally I'd roll with yes as wild shape has taken enough hits as is and its not a clear no. But since they gave a specific list of where you retain your PB, there is a solid argument that while you retain the class feature of casting spells how its DCs and spell attack bonuses are calculated is based on a PB, a PB you do not retain for spellcasting as its not on the list. But I am biased in that I think it was an error on their part to not have wild shape always use the players PB. It doesn't matter much but for moon, but moon druids lose way too much accuracy to be effective in their forms.
That's a point I didn't mention, but I agree. Let the player have fun with their classes.
Another thing I was thinking, but it's more like a personal/lore take: if your Spellcasting Ability is Wisdom, and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are the same while shape-shifted, then your mystical connection to nature you use for casting spells shouldn't be affected just because you're in a different form.