It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.
It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch.
Actually, compared to chromatic orb, witch bolt would be better here, as you are guaranteed to at least kill the enemy with the bonus action damage.
It is not guaranteed anything, its concentration,(along with a big please shoot me sign) its only 1d12, the guy can just step behind some cover for a split second, he can fall back 30 feet to get past 60 feet and shoot you with an arrow so he doesn't even give up a round. Any times there is more than one enemy and the initial attack will likely be good enough then chromatic orb is better, and vs enemies who have resistance vs lightning.
It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.
I find it pretty hard to believe that [spells]chromatic orb[/spells is better. It has only .5 more initial damage, and I don't think the chance to jump is worth giving up the 6.5 automatic damage every turn. Also, if you need to misty step, then do that. You're still likely to be doing more damage even if you can't use the bonus action every round. A few caveats:
chromatic orb probably upcasts better, but that doesn't really matter, as fireball is better at that point
chromatic orb would be good withwitch bolt, as it isn't concentration and might hit other targets too
Sure, if damage was all that mattered. If you use Witch Bolt, you can't use any other Concentration spell, any number of which would be better options. If you pull down that damage with the BA, you can't Misty Step when things get dicy for your squishy caster. Exactly no one is going to be using Witch Bolt the moment they get access to level 2 spells anyway, so why even bother talking about level 3 Fireballs?
You might want to gamble on giving up Misty Step, but considering how easy it is to kill anyone at levels 1 and casters at level 2, that 6 damage isn't worth the trouble when someone else in a party can do that damage instead. This isn't a solo game for most people, and if 6 damage matters all that much in a fight, someone else can certainly deliver on it while I keep my wizard alive.
It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.
It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch.
Actually, compared to chromatic orb, witch bolt would be better here, as you are guaranteed to at least kill the enemy with the bonus action damage.
It is not guaranteed anything, its concentration,(along with a big please shoot me sign) its only 1d12, the guy can just step behind some cover for a split second,
If there's cover
he can fall back 30 feet to get past 60 feet and shoot you with an arrow so he doesn't even give up a round.
If the enemy has a ranged attack option; note that if they're in melee they'll be provoking AoO's when they do this.
Any times there is more than one enemy and the initial attack will likely be good enough then chromatic orb is better, and vs enemies who have resistance vs lightning.
There's one point that's not being raised here in the comparison that is very relevant- depending on how the DM is willing to let you spend starting gold you might not be able to get at the M component for CO, and it's about half the gold in any case. If someone is looking to min-max for combat it's an option I guess, but the way I expect a lot of people to build their characters it's just not going to be an option at level 1.
It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.
It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch.
Actually, compared to chromatic orb, witch bolt would be better here, as you are guaranteed to at least kill the enemy with the bonus action damage.
It is not guaranteed anything, its concentration,(along with a big please shoot me sign) its only 1d12, the guy can just step behind some cover for a split second,
If there's cover
he can fall back 30 feet to get past 60 feet and shoot you with an arrow so he doesn't even give up a round.
If the enemy has a ranged attack option; note that if they're in melee they'll be provoking AoO's when they do this.
Any times there is more than one enemy and the initial attack will likely be good enough then chromatic orb is better, and vs enemies who have resistance vs lightning.
There's one point that's not being raised here in the comparison that is very relevant- depending on how the DM is willing to let you spend starting gold you might not be able to get at the M component for CO, and it's about half the gold in any case. If someone is looking to min-max for combat it's an option I guess, but the way I expect a lot of people to build their characters it's just not going to be an option at level 1.
Oh my gerd if the stars align its powerful. Its super OP.
It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.
It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch.
Actually, compared to chromatic orb, witch bolt would be better here, as you are guaranteed to at least kill the enemy with the bonus action damage.
It is not guaranteed anything, its concentration,(along with a big please shoot me sign) its only 1d12, the guy can just step behind some cover for a split second,
If there's cover
he can fall back 30 feet to get past 60 feet and shoot you with an arrow so he doesn't even give up a round.
If the enemy has a ranged attack option; note that if they're in melee they'll be provoking AoO's when they do this.
Any times there is more than one enemy and the initial attack will likely be good enough then chromatic orb is better, and vs enemies who have resistance vs lightning.
There's one point that's not being raised here in the comparison that is very relevant- depending on how the DM is willing to let you spend starting gold you might not be able to get at the M component for CO, and it's about half the gold in any case. If someone is looking to min-max for combat it's an option I guess, but the way I expect a lot of people to build their characters it's just not going to be an option at level 1.
Oh my gerd if the stars align its powerful. Its super OP.
Did I say OP? No. I just pointed out the various shortcomings in your own argument. If the stars align, it might end instantly while the enemy remains fully effective and unaffected. Most of the time, they will not.
Also, consider this as well- you can use Witch Bolt and an attack cantrip on the same turn. You miss with Chromatic Orb, your turn's effectively done and there's no damage. With Witch Bolt you have a second chance to put something on the board for the round, and there's guaranteed damage next round. Is it as flashy? No. Does it fill a role? Yes. Particularly for Evocation Wizards, since they can guarantee damage from the cantrip, or any weapon user build who will be in melee with the target, thus negating the aforementioned limitations.
In a vacuum does Chromatic Orb come out ahead for dpr in a one to one comparison? Yes. Is D&D played in a vacuum? No.
It isn't like Chromatic Orb is some fringe case of being able to do more DPR. If fights in 2024 tend to last about 3 rounds like they do in 2014 rules, you get yourself 13 extra damage from Witch Bolt that you had to commit Concentration to. At level 1, that is a 34% chance of bouncing with Chromatic Orb and when it does, you are doing a lot more than 6.5 damage. At level 2 casting, it is 59% chance to bounce and it can bounce twice. That is for a single casting mind you, 12d8 potential damage with a level 2 spell. If you can find ways to reroll damage, like with some subclass options, the chances of rolling a bounce are even higher. So up to 12d8, no Concentration, anchored Bonus Action, and you can do it again next turn.
It isn't like Chromatic Orb is some fringe case of being able to do more DPR. If fights in 2024 tend to last about 3 rounds like they do in 2014 rules, you get yourself 13 extra damage from Witch Bolt that you had to commit Concentration to. At level 1, that is a 34% chance of bouncing with Chromatic Orb and when it does, you are doing a lot more than 6.5 damage. At level 2 casting, it is 59% chance to bounce and it can bounce twice. That is for a single casting mind you, 12d8 potential damage with a level 2 spell. If you can find ways to reroll damage, like with some subclass options, the chances of rolling a bounce are even higher. So up to 12d8, no Concentration, anchored Bonus Action, and you can do it again next turn.
Let's see, 65% of 3d8 (4+5+4=13) is 8.45. If there's a 34% chance of bouncing that it's 34% to happen and then another 65% that it lands for an average of 2.87. Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by the number. On the other hand, we have the exact same initial damage from 65% for 2d12 (6+7=13) of 8.45, and then let's say a Firebolt for a straight 65% of 1d10 for 3.58. Purely going by the initial turn damage, the net action economy seems to favor Witch Bolt as a level 1 cast alongside a cantrip or weapon attack. Now, Chromatic Orb does absolutely scale better, but that's a separate discussion. Witch Bolt is effective for a 1st level spell slot and synergizes with builds that want to use their Action for something else. Chromatic Orb has the potential to hit higher in a turn, but not reliably at level 1.
It isn't like Chromatic Orb is some fringe case of being able to do more DPR. If fights in 2024 tend to last about 3 rounds like they do in 2014 rules, you get yourself 13 extra damage from Witch Bolt that you had to commit Concentration to. At level 1, that is a 34% chance of bouncing with Chromatic Orb and when it does, you are doing a lot more than 6.5 damage. At level 2 casting, it is 59% chance to bounce and it can bounce twice. That is for a single casting mind you, 12d8 potential damage with a level 2 spell. If you can find ways to reroll damage, like with some subclass options, the chances of rolling a bounce are even higher. So up to 12d8, no Concentration, anchored Bonus Action, and you can do it again next turn.
Let's see, 65% of 3d8 (4+5+4=13) is 8.45. If there's a 34% chance of bouncing that it's 34% to happen and then another 65% that it lands for an average of 2.87. Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by the number. On the other hand, we have the exact same initial damage from 65% for 2d12 (6+7=13) of 8.45, and then let's say a Firebolt for a straight 65% of 1d10 for 3.58. Purely going by the initial turn damage, the net action economy seems to favor Witch Bolt as a level 1 cast alongside a cantrip or weapon attack. Now, Chromatic Orb does absolutely scale better, but that's a separate discussion. Witch Bolt is effective for a 1st level spell slot and synergizes with builds that want to use their Action for something else. Chromatic Orb has the potential to hit higher in a turn, but not reliably at level 1.
Yes, you have made a fantastic argument that Chromatic Orb is not the best spell for all possible situations. Now can you point to the post where that is a point being made?
Since sharing that some spell other than Witch Bolt is preferred by me personally has somehow been interpreted as a declaration that the spell is universally better, allow me to clarify this misunderstanding: there are going to be cases where Witch Bolt is going to be the better spell. There are going to be cases where Chromatic Orb is going to be better. Neither are objectively the best level 1 spells. Chromatic Orb is better for me in most cases because I don't play in any games where a single target is the only target on the field always and the monsters I face do not march at my party from across the map like it is the Revolutionary War. Casters are known dangerous elements and are targeted when they are revealed, and because martials cannot necessarily lock enemies down, I need to have ways to protect myself.
If I use Witch Bolt, I cannot do much about enemies closing in on me unless I am already the target of an attack, in which case Shield comes into play. I don't know what your experience is with being a wizard, but generally speaking, if you are getting attacked, you have made a number of tactical errors.
Be underwhelmed if you want, but for Witch Bolt to be the best damage option for you even most of the time tells me how you or your DM run battles. Consider me similarly underwhelmed.
I never said it was the best damage option, I'm just pointing out that Chromatic Orb is not nearly so far ahead in terms of actual performance as has been suggested. Witch Bolt is a decent 1st level spell that synergizes well with certain approaches during tier 1 but falls off quickly once you're out of that tier. Is it OP? No. Is it a trap pick that has gaping weaknesses that make it comparatively useless? Also no. That is my point.
I do not think Witch Bolt is OP either. I think the improvements that it got were actually necessary and made it a viable pick for a starting spell. In fact, depending on what I know about the game going before character creation, I might even start with Witch Bolt in some cases, then swap to something else when I level into the next tier. I am pretty sure I have even seen some optimization guide recommending such actions.
I like Chromatic Orb personally because I don't feel tied up with it. I also like the viability in both scaling terms and in the option to change damage once resistances come into play. For me, personally, the pros just outweigh the cons. Witch Bolt is absolutely a good level 1 spell because the chaser damage happens irrespective of whether you hit with the initial attack. I think that is pretty neat.
Decent damage on a hit, and then you automatically do 1D12 damage as a bonus action every turn after. They've buffed this spell in almost every conceivable way, and it was already decently powerful. Here's some math I did a while ago:
"I think this spell is overpowered now. You can cast it at level one, doing high damage on a hit. For every turn after (until you lose concentration) you get an automatic d12 of damage as a bonus action. You can then use your action to either cast a cantrip (like poison spray) every round after. The dpr over 3 rounds with a hit rate of 65% would be (8.45 + 10.725 + 10.725)/3, or 9.96 dpr.
Compare this to casting magic missile and poison spray twice, which would be (10.5 + 4.225 + 4.225)/3 or 6.316 dpr.
(one thing to note, if the enemy you cast witch bolt on dies, the spell is over)"
(should you use quotes for yourself?)
Witch Bolt is not overpowered. 1st its concentration. A lot of spells that people claim are over powered are spells they forget are concentration. Most PCs who take a bonus action attack are probably doing at least 5 damage, but potentially a lot more. There is no way to increase the bonus action damage. Only the original damage increases. You are going to do way more damage on average with a greatsword doing 2d6 + 4 + various class bonuses. A ranger using hunter's mark should already be doing more damage than the witch bolt.
Witch bolt has been changed from "complete trash" to "sometimes worth casting if you're first or second level". At third level or higher, you have better uses for concentration, and at first or second level... most targets simply don't live long enough for those bonus actions to play a major role, and it's trivial to end anyway (just walk behind full cover).
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It is not guaranteed anything, its concentration,(along with a big please shoot me sign) its only 1d12, the guy can just step behind some cover for a split second, he can fall back 30 feet to get past 60 feet and shoot you with an arrow so he doesn't even give up a round. Any times there is more than one enemy and the initial attack will likely be good enough then chromatic orb is better, and vs enemies who have resistance vs lightning.
Sure, if damage was all that mattered. If you use Witch Bolt, you can't use any other Concentration spell, any number of which would be better options. If you pull down that damage with the BA, you can't Misty Step when things get dicy for your squishy caster. Exactly no one is going to be using Witch Bolt the moment they get access to level 2 spells anyway, so why even bother talking about level 3 Fireballs?
You might want to gamble on giving up Misty Step, but considering how easy it is to kill anyone at levels 1 and casters at level 2, that 6 damage isn't worth the trouble when someone else in a party can do that damage instead. This isn't a solo game for most people, and if 6 damage matters all that much in a fight, someone else can certainly deliver on it while I keep my wizard alive.
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If there's cover
If the enemy has a ranged attack option; note that if they're in melee they'll be provoking AoO's when they do this.
There's one point that's not being raised here in the comparison that is very relevant- depending on how the DM is willing to let you spend starting gold you might not be able to get at the M component for CO, and it's about half the gold in any case. If someone is looking to min-max for combat it's an option I guess, but the way I expect a lot of people to build their characters it's just not going to be an option at level 1.
Oh my gerd if the stars align its powerful. Its super OP.
Did I say OP? No. I just pointed out the various shortcomings in your own argument. If the stars align, it might end instantly while the enemy remains fully effective and unaffected. Most of the time, they will not.
Also, consider this as well- you can use Witch Bolt and an attack cantrip on the same turn. You miss with Chromatic Orb, your turn's effectively done and there's no damage. With Witch Bolt you have a second chance to put something on the board for the round, and there's guaranteed damage next round. Is it as flashy? No. Does it fill a role? Yes. Particularly for Evocation Wizards, since they can guarantee damage from the cantrip, or any weapon user build who will be in melee with the target, thus negating the aforementioned limitations.
In a vacuum does Chromatic Orb come out ahead for dpr in a one to one comparison? Yes. Is D&D played in a vacuum? No.
It isn't like Chromatic Orb is some fringe case of being able to do more DPR. If fights in 2024 tend to last about 3 rounds like they do in 2014 rules, you get yourself 13 extra damage from Witch Bolt that you had to commit Concentration to. At level 1, that is a 34% chance of bouncing with Chromatic Orb and when it does, you are doing a lot more than 6.5 damage. At level 2 casting, it is 59% chance to bounce and it can bounce twice. That is for a single casting mind you, 12d8 potential damage with a level 2 spell. If you can find ways to reroll damage, like with some subclass options, the chances of rolling a bounce are even higher. So up to 12d8, no Concentration, anchored Bonus Action, and you can do it again next turn.
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Let's see, 65% of 3d8 (4+5+4=13) is 8.45. If there's a 34% chance of bouncing that it's 34% to happen and then another 65% that it lands for an average of 2.87. Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by the number. On the other hand, we have the exact same initial damage from 65% for 2d12 (6+7=13) of 8.45, and then let's say a Firebolt for a straight 65% of 1d10 for 3.58. Purely going by the initial turn damage, the net action economy seems to favor Witch Bolt as a level 1 cast alongside a cantrip or weapon attack. Now, Chromatic Orb does absolutely scale better, but that's a separate discussion. Witch Bolt is effective for a 1st level spell slot and synergizes with builds that want to use their Action for something else. Chromatic Orb has the potential to hit higher in a turn, but not reliably at level 1.
Yes, you have made a fantastic argument that Chromatic Orb is not the best spell for all possible situations. Now can you point to the post where that is a point being made?
Since sharing that some spell other than Witch Bolt is preferred by me personally has somehow been interpreted as a declaration that the spell is universally better, allow me to clarify this misunderstanding: there are going to be cases where Witch Bolt is going to be the better spell. There are going to be cases where Chromatic Orb is going to be better. Neither are objectively the best level 1 spells. Chromatic Orb is better for me in most cases because I don't play in any games where a single target is the only target on the field always and the monsters I face do not march at my party from across the map like it is the Revolutionary War. Casters are known dangerous elements and are targeted when they are revealed, and because martials cannot necessarily lock enemies down, I need to have ways to protect myself.
If I use Witch Bolt, I cannot do much about enemies closing in on me unless I am already the target of an attack, in which case Shield comes into play. I don't know what your experience is with being a wizard, but generally speaking, if you are getting attacked, you have made a number of tactical errors.
Be underwhelmed if you want, but for Witch Bolt to be the best damage option for you even most of the time tells me how you or your DM run battles. Consider me similarly underwhelmed.
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I never said it was the best damage option, I'm just pointing out that Chromatic Orb is not nearly so far ahead in terms of actual performance as has been suggested. Witch Bolt is a decent 1st level spell that synergizes well with certain approaches during tier 1 but falls off quickly once you're out of that tier. Is it OP? No. Is it a trap pick that has gaping weaknesses that make it comparatively useless? Also no. That is my point.
I do not think Witch Bolt is OP either. I think the improvements that it got were actually necessary and made it a viable pick for a starting spell. In fact, depending on what I know about the game going before character creation, I might even start with Witch Bolt in some cases, then swap to something else when I level into the next tier. I am pretty sure I have even seen some optimization guide recommending such actions.
I like Chromatic Orb personally because I don't feel tied up with it. I also like the viability in both scaling terms and in the option to change damage once resistances come into play. For me, personally, the pros just outweigh the cons. Witch Bolt is absolutely a good level 1 spell because the chaser damage happens irrespective of whether you hit with the initial attack. I think that is pretty neat.
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Witch Bolt is not overpowered. 1st its concentration. A lot of spells that people claim are over powered are spells they forget are concentration. Most PCs who take a bonus action attack are probably doing at least 5 damage, but potentially a lot more. There is no way to increase the bonus action damage. Only the original damage increases. You are going to do way more damage on average with a greatsword doing 2d6 + 4 + various class bonuses. A ranger using hunter's mark should already be doing more damage than the witch bolt.
Witch bolt has been changed from "complete trash" to "sometimes worth casting if you're first or second level". At third level or higher, you have better uses for concentration, and at first or second level... most targets simply don't live long enough for those bonus actions to play a major role, and it's trivial to end anyway (just walk behind full cover).