The Artificer is a weird case. Tools Required keys off casting the spell and it being an Artificer spell. It's on the Artificer spell list so it's an Artificer spell. How you prepare it doesn't matter.
The actual sentence is "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it)." (Emphasis added.)
That would generally mean that spells from other class spellcasting features / magic items / feats wouldn't count, and is roughly what the multiclassing rules for which-class-you-prepare-the-spell-for are getting at.
That said, I kinda expect them to simplify this in the 2024 version of Artificer. But, there are a handful of places (Cleric, Paladin, Wizard) where the 2024 class features still refer to "this class's Spellcasting feature."
Except that when you multiclass, you don't have independent spellcasting. Your Artificer Spellcasting feature is combined with your Wizard Spellcasting feature and they are no longer distinct. If it was based on spells prepared, you could identify certain spells as Artificer spells and others Wizard spells. Since it is based on when they are cast, the only determining factor is whether it on your Artificer spell list.
I think maybe we are getting caught up because we are not using the whole of the (2024) texts. The initiate feats allow you to choose the class and stat seperatly but by choosing the class your establishing the class it is cast as.
You do not choose a class. You choose a spell list. You do not get a Spellcasting class feature and none of the related features for the class that uses the spell list you picked, no spellcasting focus, no changing your prepared spells (except as described in the feat), and the spellcasting ability is determined by the feat instead of the class associated with the spell list. Only if the spell taken is also on a spell list for a class you are actually a member of can a spellcasting focus apply, but the spell preparation will still follow the rules of the feat.
Not exactly - when multiclassed you prepare separate lists based on the classes. The slots are common but the prepared spells are still by class so 8f you prepare fireball as a Wizard spell and as a sorceror spell you would need to declare which version as the Wizard prepared version would not be able to access the carefull metamagic while the sorcerer prepared would.. same idea for something like magic missile from wizards initiate - your preparing it from a spellbook it’s memorized to work only one way so it can’t access those spur of the moment alterations that are the sorceror’s metamagic. The fey and shadow magic spells are prepared once at the start of the feat and never again so how they are initially prepared matters- they are always prepared that way so it needs to be noted.
The actual sentence is "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it)." (Emphasis added.) That would generally mean that spells from other class spellcasting features / magic items / feats wouldn't count, and is roughly what the multiclassing rules for which-class-you-prepare-the-spell-for are getting at.
Except that when you multiclass, you don't have independent spellcasting. Your Artificer Spellcasting feature is combined with your Wizard Spellcasting feature and they are no longer distinct. If it was based on spells prepared, you could identify certain spells as Artificer spells and others Wizard spells. Since it is based on when they are cast, the only determining factor is whether it on your Artificer spell list.
You do have spells gained via each individual class. E.g. you have a specific number of cantrips known at a given level, and a specific number of leveled spells prepared at a given level (Int mod + half Artificer level, rounded down, min 1). Spells not included in that list (because they are cantrips you learned elsewhere, or levelled spells you prepared elsewise) aren't cast "with this [Artificer] Spellcasting feature." So they are not eligible for features that key off of that (e.g. "Tools Required").
Many many features do indeed key solely off of casting a spell from a spell list, and don't need to worry about this. That's true. But some features do worry about it, thus the discrepancy between the multiclassing rules, the spell lists, and (perhaps) the SAE.
I do think they would be better off with more streamlined rules for interfacing multiple spellcasting features; I think the game would be better if "...with this Spellcasting feature" weren't really relevant to anything, so it was always off spell lists and (maybe) spell tags.
The actual sentence is "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it)." (Emphasis added.) That would generally mean that spells from other class spellcasting features / magic items / feats wouldn't count, and is roughly what the multiclassing rules for which-class-you-prepare-the-spell-for are getting at.
Except that when you multiclass, you don't have independent spellcasting. Your Artificer Spellcasting feature is combined with your Wizard Spellcasting feature and they are no longer distinct. If it was based on spells prepared, you could identify certain spells as Artificer spells and others Wizard spells. Since it is based on when they are cast, the only determining factor is whether it on your Artificer spell list.
You do have spells gained via each individual class. E.g. you have a specific number of cantrips known at a given level, and a specific number of leveled spells prepared at a given level (Int mod + half Artificer level, rounded down, min 1). Spells not included in that list (because they are cantrips you learned elsewhere, or levelled spells you prepared elsewise) aren't cast "with this [Artificer] Spellcasting feature." So they are not eligible for features that key off of that (e.g. "Tools Required").
Many many features do indeed key solely off of casting a spell from a spell list, and don't need to worry about this. That's true. But some features do worry about it, thus the discrepancy between the multiclassing rules, the spell lists, and (perhaps) the SAE.
I do think they would be better off with more streamlined rules for interfacing multiple spellcasting features; I think the game would be better if "...with this Spellcasting feature" weren't really relevant to anything, so it was always off spell lists and (maybe) spell tags.
Yes, you're right; Anything cast without a spell slot wouldn't fall under the combined spellcasting feature and would rely solely on the originating feature, but I still think the SAE ruling is unfounded, is based on updating the 2014 ruling (which also may be unfounded), and is not clear whether it is actually intended to be RAW, RAI, or something else. Injecting new rules should be done by errata, not what is supposed to be a clarification.
As an aside, if the Sage Advice & Errata is in a in a good state, I think we should adapt the standard of converting the ampersand to an "n" (DnD) and abbreviate it as "SAnE".
As an aside, if the Sage Advice & Errata is in a in a good state, I think we should adapt the standard of converting the ampersand to an "n" (DnD) and abbreviate it as "SAnE".
So I've spent the last several days reading this post as well as several others on this forum with many contributions from many of the folks on this thread almost all pertaining to this fundamental issue of what constitutes a [class] spell, and I and not not feel that we don't have a clean RAW answer. I know several people probably disagree notably Up2ng, but I still cannot find any reference to a [class] spell outside of the class features except a SAC post that is for the 2014 ruleset and do not see how we can be reasonably expected to apply a rule from class feature as a blanket rule.
To that I do think that we need some kind of clarification from SAnE though I would personally prefer it come from the E side of that acronym. The carification I would like is that in 2024 "When you prepare or cast a spell with [class] feature that spell cast as a [class] spell and no others." this would of not course extend to other features like Magic initiate but if they desire for them to do so they could also add something like "When you prepare or cast a spell with [class] feature or select a spell to know from a [class[ spell list that spell is cast as a [class] spell and no others."
For those that disagree with me and would like to change my mind (again Up2ng I honestly want you to tell me why you think I'm wrong) I feel like the best example that would persuade me is a RAW interpretation of how a spell learned, prepared, and cast by a single class wizard through their spellcasting feature that happens to be on both the wizard and the sorcerer list is also a sorcerer spell.
Just for clarity I'm not trying to be a dick at all I really am trying to understand. Most of my confusion has to do with it being how I have always Interpreted the spells that apear on multiple spell lists beign seperate spells form each other which I understand is not explict in the 2024 rules, but I still see enough hints a tthe idea and enough holes in the RAW that I feel like maybe someone inside WoTC agrees with me.
Secondarily and closely related to this threads topic, but again referencing some of the things I've seen on other threads. Can anyone provide some clarity on why it seems to be the general consensus of this forum that the langauge in many spellcasting classes (though not Eldritch Knight in particular) of "If another [class] feature gives spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells on the list you prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [class] spells for you." wouldn't apply to 2024 magic initiate if it were taken with this class feature "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16."
Secondarily and closely related to this threads topic, but again referencing some of the things I've seen on other threads. Can anyone provide some clarity on why it seems to be the general consensus of this forum that the langauge in many spellcasting classes (though not Eldritch Knight in particular) of "If another [class] feature gives spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells on the list you prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [class] spells for you." wouldn't apply to 2024 magic initiate if it were taken with this class feature "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16."
Because a feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature, at least based on the following information from the PHB:
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:
Feats
Feats “Feats” includes the following new and revised elements, which are presented in the order in which they appear in that section.
Feat Descriptions [New Rule]
Feats are now divided into categories, including Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon. All feats in this section are new except for the following revised rules.
Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]
This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature.
Grappler [Revised Rule]
This feat is revised and is now a General feat.
Fighting Style Feats [Revised Rule]
These rules are now feats rather than class features.
[...] Most of my confusion has to do with it being how I have always Interpreted the spells that apear on multiple spell lists beign seperate spells form each other which I understand is not explict in the 2024 rules, but I still see enough hints a tthe idea and enough holes in the RAW that I feel like maybe someone inside WoTC agrees with me.
Under the 2014 rules, it was often accepted that spells learned through feats (such as Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched) or species traits didn't count as class spells.
The following threads are questions about the topic using the 2024 rules, and that ruling was explained there, though some people disagreed:
IMO, the 2024 rules support the first SAC answer posted by wagnarokkr, but personally, I wouldn't have understood it that way before (probably because of my 2014 understanding). Even so, I think this topic should be clarified through errata in the PHB or adding more details to the SAC (I'm still having nightmares about the multiclassing answer)
Secondarily and closely related to this threads topic, but again referencing some of the things I've seen on other threads. Can anyone provide some clarity on why it seems to be the general consensus of this forum that the langauge in many spellcasting classes (though not Eldritch Knight in particular) of "If another [class] feature gives spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells on the list you prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [class] spells for you." wouldn't apply to 2024 magic initiate if it were taken with this class feature "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16."
Because a feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature, at least based on the following information from the PHB:
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:
Feats
Feats “Feats” includes the following new and revised elements, which are presented in the order in which they appear in that section.
Feat Descriptions [New Rule]
Feats are now divided into categories, including Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon. All feats in this section are new except for the following revised rules.
Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]
This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature.
Grappler [Revised Rule]
This feat is revised and is now a General feat.
Fighting Style Feats [Revised Rule]
These rules are now feats rather than class features.
This is very helpful thank you. I find the revision section where they clearly state that ASIs and Fighting styles are now feats rather than features to be quite a compeling argument for a feat not being a feature.
It seems like the way they think of it is that at class level 4 (etc.) you get a class feature; that feature grants you a a feat, but the feat you choose isn’t itself a class feature.
It’s a narrow hair to split, but I think it might cause more trouble to think of it the other way.
[...] Most of my confusion has to do with it being how I have always Interpreted the spells that apear on multiple spell lists beign seperate spells form each other which I understand is not explict in the 2024 rules, but I still see enough hints a tthe idea and enough holes in the RAW that I feel like maybe someone inside WoTC agrees with me.
Under the 2014 rules, it was often accepted that spells learned through feats (such as Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched) or species traits didn't count as class spells.
The following threads are questions about the topic using the 2024 rules, and that ruling was explained there, though some people disagreed:
IMO, the 2024 rules support the first SAC answer posted by wagnarokkr, but personally, I wouldn't have understood it that way before (probably because of my 2014 understanding). Even so, I think this topic should be clarified through errata in the PHB or adding more details to the SAC (I'm still having nightmares about the multiclassing answer)
I believe I have read all of those threads which is perhaps the basis of my confusion, but if i am understanding correctly the SAC answer that wagnarokkr is linking to in those posts is an offical rulling for 2024 which clarifies that if a spell appears on your a class's spell list it is a [class] spell, and therefore when you cast it any features trait or feat you posess which alters what happens when you cast a [class] spell can be applied to it.
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The Magic Initiate class is only for choose spell list, not that you cast spell as a member of that class.
Proof is you can select Cleric spell list and Charisma as your spellcasting ability.
Except that when you multiclass, you don't have independent spellcasting. Your Artificer Spellcasting feature is combined with your Wizard Spellcasting feature and they are no longer distinct. If it was based on spells prepared, you could identify certain spells as Artificer spells and others Wizard spells. Since it is based on when they are cast, the only determining factor is whether it on your Artificer spell list.
You do not choose a class. You choose a spell list. You do not get a Spellcasting class feature and none of the related features for the class that uses the spell list you picked, no spellcasting focus, no changing your prepared spells (except as described in the feat), and the spellcasting ability is determined by the feat instead of the class associated with the spell list. Only if the spell taken is also on a spell list for a class you are actually a member of can a spellcasting focus apply, but the spell preparation will still follow the rules of the feat.
(Ninjaed by Plaguescarred)
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Not exactly - when multiclassed you prepare separate lists based on the classes. The slots are common but the prepared spells are still by class so 8f you prepare fireball as a Wizard spell and as a sorceror spell you would need to declare which version as the Wizard prepared version would not be able to access the carefull metamagic while the sorcerer prepared would.. same idea for something like magic missile from wizards initiate - your preparing it from a spellbook it’s memorized to work only one way so it can’t access those spur of the moment alterations that are the sorceror’s metamagic. The fey and shadow magic spells are prepared once at the start of the feat and never again so how they are initially prepared matters- they are always prepared that way so it needs to be noted.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Metamagic isn't limited to Sorcerer spells, though.
pronouns: he/she/they
You do have spells gained via each individual class. E.g. you have a specific number of cantrips known at a given level, and a specific number of leveled spells prepared at a given level (Int mod + half Artificer level, rounded down, min 1). Spells not included in that list (because they are cantrips you learned elsewhere, or levelled spells you prepared elsewise) aren't cast "with this [Artificer] Spellcasting feature." So they are not eligible for features that key off of that (e.g. "Tools Required").
Many many features do indeed key solely off of casting a spell from a spell list, and don't need to worry about this. That's true. But some features do worry about it, thus the discrepancy between the multiclassing rules, the spell lists, and (perhaps) the SAE.
I do think they would be better off with more streamlined rules for interfacing multiple spellcasting features; I think the game would be better if "...with this Spellcasting feature" weren't really relevant to anything, so it was always off spell lists and (maybe) spell tags.
It can even be applied to spells cast from Magic Items.
Yes, you're right; Anything cast without a spell slot wouldn't fall under the combined spellcasting feature and would rely solely on the originating feature, but I still think the SAE ruling is unfounded, is based on updating the 2014 ruling (which also may be unfounded), and is not clear whether it is actually intended to be RAW, RAI, or something else. Injecting new rules should be done by errata, not what is supposed to be a clarification.
As an aside, if the Sage Advice & Errata is in a in a good state, I think we should adapt the standard of converting the ampersand to an "n" (DnD) and abbreviate it as "SAnE".
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Heh.
I do think they should update the pinned post (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/216563-rules-discussion-guidelines) to reference the SAE instead of the SAC (which is now outdated). Or explicitly say the SAC is RAW for 2014 but not 2024, while the SAE is RAW for 2024 but not 2014.
If only I could do tags like @Elgate :)
So I've spent the last several days reading this post as well as several others on this forum with many contributions from many of the folks on this thread almost all pertaining to this fundamental issue of what constitutes a [class] spell, and I and not not feel that we don't have a clean RAW answer. I know several people probably disagree notably Up2ng, but I still cannot find any reference to a [class] spell outside of the class features except a SAC post that is for the 2014 ruleset and do not see how we can be reasonably expected to apply a rule from class feature as a blanket rule.
To that I do think that we need some kind of clarification from SAnE though I would personally prefer it come from the E side of that acronym. The carification I would like is that in 2024 "When you prepare or cast a spell with [class] feature that spell cast as a [class] spell and no others." this would of not course extend to other features like Magic initiate but if they desire for them to do so they could also add something like "When you prepare or cast a spell with [class] feature or select a spell to know from a [class[ spell list that spell is cast as a [class] spell and no others."
For those that disagree with me and would like to change my mind (again Up2ng I honestly want you to tell me why you think I'm wrong) I feel like the best example that would persuade me is a RAW interpretation of how a spell learned, prepared, and cast by a single class wizard through their spellcasting feature that happens to be on both the wizard and the sorcerer list is also a sorcerer spell.
Just for clarity I'm not trying to be a dick at all I really am trying to understand. Most of my confusion has to do with it being how I have always Interpreted the spells that apear on multiple spell lists beign seperate spells form each other which I understand is not explict in the 2024 rules, but I still see enough hints a tthe idea and enough holes in the RAW that I feel like maybe someone inside WoTC agrees with me.
Edit: Typo correction
Secondarily and closely related to this threads topic, but again referencing some of the things I've seen on other threads. Can anyone provide some clarity on why it seems to be the general consensus of this forum that the langauge in many spellcasting classes (though not Eldritch Knight in particular) of "If another [class] feature gives spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells on the list you prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [class] spells for you." wouldn't apply to 2024 magic initiate if it were taken with this class feature "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16."
Because a feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature, at least based on the following information from the PHB:
And this information from the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1:
Under the 2014 rules, it was often accepted that spells learned through feats (such as Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched) or species traits didn't count as class spells.
The following threads are questions about the topic using the 2024 rules, and that ruling was explained there, though some people disagreed:
Then, the 2024 SAC appeared and clarified what counts as a class spell, which is the answer some people are giving to the same question:
IMO, the 2024 rules support the first SAC answer posted by wagnarokkr, but personally, I wouldn't have understood it that way before (probably because of my 2014 understanding). Even so, I think this topic should be clarified through errata in the PHB or adding more details to the SAC (I'm still having nightmares about the multiclassing answer)
This is very helpful thank you. I find the revision section where they clearly state that ASIs and Fighting styles are now feats rather than features to be quite a compeling argument for a feat not being a feature.
It seems like the way they think of it is that at class level 4 (etc.) you get a class feature; that feature grants you a a feat, but the feat you choose isn’t itself a class feature.
It’s a narrow hair to split, but I think it might cause more trouble to think of it the other way.
pronouns: he/she/they
I believe I have read all of those threads which is perhaps the basis of my confusion, but if i am understanding correctly the SAC answer that wagnarokkr is linking to in those posts is an offical rulling for 2024 which clarifies that if a spell appears on your a class's spell list it is a [class] spell, and therefore when you cast it any features trait or feat you posess which alters what happens when you cast a [class] spell can be applied to it.