Down in the sewers of Neverdeep, Rob, the Barbarian Gnome, is on a quest to rid his brother's shop of a Rat problem, when he encounters a Giant Toad. He flies into a Rage and grabs the beast (Grapple *rattle*, contest *rattle*) successfully. But the beast was Ready for the attack and Bites him (*rattle*). It hits dealing 7 (resisted) piercing, 5 poison, and Rob is Restrained! On its initiative the creature swallows Rob (*rattle*) easily! 5 piercing, 7 poison. On Rob's initiative he shoves the creature knocking it Prone, (Shove *rattle*, contest *rattle*) kicking off its stomach and rolling it like a hamster ball. Rob holds the creature's tongue in his beefy hands growling with fury. The toad is Grappled and can't escape! The acid eats at Robs boots dealing 10 acid. Rob shoves the creature again pushing it 5 feet away to escape the monster. The toad runs, terrified back into the sewers!
...
Lawyer: "Wait a minute! Shoving the creature ends the grappled condition not the swallow effect!"
Interloper: "That's Where you have a problem with this scenario? I would have stopped at 'Barbarian Gnome'!"
Interloper 2: "You named your city 'Neverdeep'!?"
Anyway, is there any official ruling on the Swallow and Engulf abilities in regard to grapples and shoves? Can a monster swallow a character that's got it grappled?
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling.
So yeah, I think this works...
When you're grappling you can do pretty much anything else as long as you want. The target may want to escape, but it requires no further action; the target gets the condition and you're done. There's no continued grappling going on. You simply have one hand (depending on how you grapple and your anatomy) that is "full" with the target and can do what you want with your other body parts. You can attack a grappled target normally and they can attack you. Don't confuse it with the restrained condition, I've seen that happen a lot.
The condition itself says:
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
This would include being shoved by another creature, as long as this pushes them out of reach. However, as an ally you're better off using the "help" action in order to give the grappled character advantage on their check to escape.
edit: after reading the story again; whenever a creature is swallowed by the giant toad, the creature is no longer grappled by it but it is restrained. So simply shoving it should not work; the restrained condition does not end when the creature is no longer within reach (as Grappled does). The only thing I find strange is that Swallow does not declare that "you share the same space as the creature that has swallowed you" or something similar. Meaning that RAW, if you play on a grid, you're technically still next to it. I mean, it's heavily implied but it's not specified :P
There's two big problems with the way that encounter played out:
After being swallowed, Rob was in the toad's stomach, not its mouth.
Rob can't put any distance between himself and the toad from inside the toad without some sort of magical ability to teleport or pass through matter.
Everything else follows from those two facts. Shoving the toad from the inside would've at worst done nothing and at best moved both Rob and the toad. It certainly wouldn't have moved Rob out of the toad's stomach and back into its mouth, so he couldn't have grabbed the toad's tongue, or escaped by shoving it a second time. (And if he had somehow worked his way back up into the toad's mouth, he wouldn't be taking acid damage.)
The main way to escape a Giant Toad's Swallow without magic is to kill the toad.
There's two big problems with the way that encounter played out:
After being swallowed, Rob was in the toad's stomach, not its mouth.
Rob can't put any distance between himself and the toad from inside the toad without some sort of magical ability to teleport or pass through matter.
Everything else follows from those two facts. Shoving the toad from the inside would've at worst done nothing and at best moved both Rob and the toad. It certainly wouldn't have moved Rob out of the toad's stomach and back into its mouth, so he couldn't have grabbed the toad's tongue, or escaped by shoving it a second time. (And if he had somehow worked his way back up into the toad's mouth, he wouldn't be taking acid damage.)
The main way to escape a Giant Toad's Swallow without magic is to kill the toad.
Yeah, that's what I thought. But truthfully, RAW that's not the case if I understand correctly...
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling. This declares the target, meaning he must be successfully grappling it.
If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. Grappled condition ends here and from now on is "swallowed" which is not a condition but:
The swallowed target is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. This effectively is the condition "swallowed".
The toad can have only one target swallowed at a time. This limits the swallow ability
If the toad dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting prone. This is the only escape; when the toad is dead you can use movement. Meaning the toad has to die. As it is now, as long as the toad lives you're restrained.
However, as I said earlier, RAW you're not in the same space as the toad (if you're using a grid). It's never mentioned.
Rob can't put any distance between himself and the toad from inside the toad without some sort of magical ability to teleport or pass through matter.
Again, it seems that not even this is the case. The attack is missing some key components stating this is true RAW, mainly about when the restrained condition ends. I think the best rewrite would be:
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling. If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. The swallowed target is sharing the same space as the toad. While swallowed, it is blinded and restrained, has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. The toad can have only one target swallowed at a time. If the toad dies, or if an effect removes you from the toad's space a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting prone.
Please note; I'm not trying to make this seem like the attack is borked, I mean it's super clear what the intention is by the developers. It's just not fullproof :P Perhaps it was a lot more defined in an earlier draft but they've simplified things (perhaps some things were lost in translation)
By rule of cool .. go for it .. if everyone enjoyed it fine.
However, based on RAW, it wouldn't work. Since when the creature is swallowed they are presumably inside the creatures stomach.
Giant toad: " The swallowed target is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. "
A shoving attack allows the creature to push the other creature 5' away. However, it is a DM call as to whether this would have any chance to work from inside another creature since there is nothing to push against to move the creature. In addition, it specifically says that you push the target away (not that you push yourself back 5') so when pushing from inside something with nothing to push against you have no way to move the target back 5' and free yourself.With the restrained condition, your speed is zero, so there is no option to try to move out of it. In addtion, all attacks are at disadvantage since you are blinded and restrained.
The rule on shoving says that is "a special melee attack to shove a creature" ... the attack is resolved using an opposed ability check ... however, since it is also still an attack roll, disadvantage could be justified. (Makes sense since shoving while restrained should be more difficult).
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling. This declares the target, meaning he must be successfully grappling it.
If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. Grappled condition ends here and from now on is "swallowed" which is not a condition but:
The swallowed target is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. This effectively is the condition "swallowed".
The toad can have only one target swallowed at a time. This limits the swallow ability
If the toad dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting prone. This is the only escape; when the toad is dead you can use movement. Meaning the toad has to die. As it is now, as long as the toad lives you're restrained.
However, as I said earlier, RAW you're not in the same space as the toad (if you're using a grid). It's never mentioned.
The rules for the giant toad's swallow action explicitly say the target is swallowed. "Swallowed" is not a game term (like "attack") so it retains its usual meaning in everyday English. It's a fact that the target is inside the toad; it follows directly from the definition of swallowing something. They could've explicitly said you share the toad's space, but 1) it's not strictly necessary here, 2) long descriptions tend to playtest poorly, and 3) unnecessary redundancy sometimes raises more questions than it answers.
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling. This declares the target, meaning he must be successfully grappling it.
If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. Grappled condition ends here and from now on is "swallowed" which is not a condition but:
The swallowed target is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. This effectively is the condition "swallowed".
The toad can have only one target swallowed at a time. This limits the swallow ability
If the toad dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting prone. This is the only escape; when the toad is dead you can use movement. Meaning the toad has to die. As it is now, as long as the toad lives you're restrained.
However, as I said earlier, RAW you're not in the same space as the toad (if you're using a grid). It's never mentioned.
The rules for the giant toad's swallow action explicitly say the target is swallowed. "Swallowed" is not a game term (like "attack") so it retains its usual meaning in everyday English. It's a fact that the target is inside the toad; it follows directly from the definition of swallowing something. They could've explicitly said you share the toad's space, but 1) it's not strictly necessary here, 2) long descriptions tend to playtest poorly, and 3) unnecessary redundancy sometimes raises more questions than it answers.
Yeah that makes sense. I guess I missed that part. It's not describing a condition per se... Thanks!
*Rewind tape* On its initiative the creature swallows Rob ... The grapple ends. On Rob's initiative he shoves the creature knocking it Prone, ... kicking off its stomach and rolling it like a hamster ball. Rob does not hold the creature's tongue in his beefy hands growling with fury.
... Because we can interpret the grapple ending applying to both characters, even though it was clearly only referring to the grapple initiated by the toad...
*Fast forward* The acid eats at Rob's boots ... Rob shoves the creature again pushing it 5 feet away to escape the monster... But he remains restrained within its stomach as Rob forces it, from within, into a spike trap! How fortunate that was there. The toad dies and Rob escapes.
(Old man BDad used to watch video on tapes)
...
RAW (Rules as Written) doesn't have any restriction on what type of attack can be made while swallowed. Presuming you can't shove a creature from the inside is interpreting RAI (Rules as Intended), while the Rule of Cool allows for pushing the creature around from within, (but only 5 feet per attack by RAW)
So no rules indicate general conditions to end a restrained condition, except those defined by the cause. In the case if a Giant Toad, "If the toad dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it..." If you're restrained because you were tied with a rope, it doesn't end simply because the villain who tied you walks out of reach. If you are restrained by a character with the Grappler feat, "you and the creature are both restrained until the grapple ends." The 5 foot shove will break you free.
I like the interpretation to include the Grapple/Shove special attack as having disadvantage while restrained. However, the Ability Check is not an Attack Roll. It is a special attack using an ability check. The only times I've been able to think of where distinguishing this as an attack are: if an event or Reaction is triggered when someone makes an attack, and when Rob, the Barbarian, will lose his Rage if he has not taken damage or made an attack. Well he did make an attack, it was a grapple and he had advantage because of his Rage. All other instances seem to refer to being 'hit by an attack' or just 'attack rolls'.
The part that's really interesting me is swallowing a creature that is grappling the toad. If you have a grapple heavy character build who grapples, and shoves prone an enemy that then swallows it, it seems odd to keep the creature trapped prone with 0 movement, held in place by the contents of its stomach. Much less than it seems odd to shove a creature from within its stomach.
Down in the sewers of Neverdeep, Rob, the Barbarian Gnome, is on a quest to rid his brother's shop of a Rat problem, when he encounters a Giant Toad. He flies into a Rage and grabs the beast (Grapple *rattle*, contest *rattle*) successfully. But the beast was Ready for the attack and Bites him (*rattle*). It hits dealing 7 (resisted) piercing, 5 poison, and Rob is Restrained! On its initiative the creature swallows Rob (*rattle*) easily! 5 piercing, 7 poison. On Rob's initiative he shoves the creature knocking it Prone, (Shove *rattle*, contest *rattle*) kicking off its stomach and rolling it like a hamster ball. Rob holds the creature's tongue in his beefy hands growling with fury. The toad is Grappled and can't escape! The acid eats at Robs boots dealing 10 acid. Rob shoves the creature again pushing it 5 feet away to escape the monster. The toad runs, terrified back into the sewers!
...
Lawyer: "Wait a minute! Shoving the creature ends the grappled condition not the swallow effect!"
Interloper: "That's Where you have a problem with this scenario? I would have stopped at 'Barbarian Gnome'!"
Interloper 2: "You named your city 'Neverdeep'!?"
Anyway, is there any official ruling on the Swallow and Engulf abilities in regard to grapples and shoves? Can a monster swallow a character that's got it grappled?
Extended Signature
From the Giant Toad:
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling.
So yeah, I think this works...
When you're grappling you can do pretty much anything else as long as you want. The target may want to escape, but it requires no further action; the target gets the condition and you're done. There's no continued grappling going on. You simply have one hand (depending on how you grapple and your anatomy) that is "full" with the target and can do what you want with your other body parts. You can attack a grappled target normally and they can attack you. Don't confuse it with the restrained condition, I've seen that happen a lot.
The condition itself says:
This would include being shoved by another creature, as long as this pushes them out of reach. However, as an ally you're better off using the "help" action in order to give the grappled character advantage on their check to escape.
Also check here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/monsters#GrappleRulesforMonsters
edit: after reading the story again; whenever a creature is swallowed by the giant toad, the creature is no longer grappled by it but it is restrained. So simply shoving it should not work; the restrained condition does not end when the creature is no longer within reach (as Grappled does). The only thing I find strange is that Swallow does not declare that "you share the same space as the creature that has swallowed you" or something similar. Meaning that RAW, if you play on a grid, you're technically still next to it. I mean, it's heavily implied but it's not specified :P
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
There's two big problems with the way that encounter played out:
Everything else follows from those two facts. Shoving the toad from the inside would've at worst done nothing and at best moved both Rob and the toad. It certainly wouldn't have moved Rob out of the toad's stomach and back into its mouth, so he couldn't have grabbed the toad's tongue, or escaped by shoving it a second time. (And if he had somehow worked his way back up into the toad's mouth, he wouldn't be taking acid damage.)
The main way to escape a Giant Toad's Swallow without magic is to kill the toad.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Yeah, that's what I thought. But truthfully, RAW that's not the case if I understand correctly...
However, as I said earlier, RAW you're not in the same space as the toad (if you're using a grid). It's never mentioned.
Yes, this is true, but this is not "declared" by the swallow attack (unless I'm missing something)
Again, it seems that not even this is the case. The attack is missing some key components stating this is true RAW, mainly about when the restrained condition ends. I think the best rewrite would be:
Swallow. The toad makes one bite attack against a Medium or smaller target it is grappling. If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. The swallowed target is sharing the same space as the toad. While swallowed, it is blinded and restrained, has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. The toad can have only one target swallowed at a time. If the toad dies, or if an effect removes you from the toad's space a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting prone.
Please note; I'm not trying to make this seem like the attack is borked, I mean it's super clear what the intention is by the developers. It's just not fullproof :P Perhaps it was a lot more defined in an earlier draft but they've simplified things (perhaps some things were lost in translation)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
By rule of cool .. go for it .. if everyone enjoyed it fine.
However, based on RAW, it wouldn't work. Since when the creature is swallowed they are presumably inside the creatures stomach.
Giant toad: " The swallowed target is blinded and restrained, it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the toad, and it takes 10 (3d6) acid damage at the start of each of the toad's turns. "
A shoving attack allows the creature to push the other creature 5' away. However, it is a DM call as to whether this would have any chance to work from inside another creature since there is nothing to push against to move the creature. In addition, it specifically says that you push the target away (not that you push yourself back 5') so when pushing from inside something with nothing to push against you have no way to move the target back 5' and free yourself.With the restrained condition, your speed is zero, so there is no option to try to move out of it. In addtion, all attacks are at disadvantage since you are blinded and restrained.
The rule on shoving says that is "a special melee attack to shove a creature" ... the attack is resolved using an opposed ability check ... however, since it is also still an attack roll, disadvantage could be justified. (Makes sense since shoving while restrained should be more difficult).
The rules for the giant toad's swallow action explicitly say the target is swallowed. "Swallowed" is not a game term (like "attack") so it retains its usual meaning in everyday English. It's a fact that the target is inside the toad; it follows directly from the definition of swallowing something. They could've explicitly said you share the toad's space, but 1) it's not strictly necessary here, 2) long descriptions tend to playtest poorly, and 3) unnecessary redundancy sometimes raises more questions than it answers.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Yeah that makes sense. I guess I missed that part. It's not describing a condition per se... Thanks!
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
*Rewind tape* On its initiative the creature swallows Rob ... The grapple ends. On Rob's initiative he shoves the creature knocking it Prone, ... kicking off its stomach and rolling it like a hamster ball. Rob does not hold the creature's tongue in his beefy hands growling with fury.
... Because we can interpret the grapple ending applying to both characters, even though it was clearly only referring to the grapple initiated by the toad...
*Fast forward* The acid eats at Rob's boots ... Rob shoves the creature again pushing it 5 feet away to escape the monster... But he remains restrained within its stomach as Rob forces it, from within, into a spike trap! How fortunate that was there. The toad dies and Rob escapes.
(Old man BDad used to watch video on tapes)
...
RAW (Rules as Written) doesn't have any restriction on what type of attack can be made while swallowed. Presuming you can't shove a creature from the inside is interpreting RAI (Rules as Intended), while the Rule of Cool allows for pushing the creature around from within, (but only 5 feet per attack by RAW)
So no rules indicate general conditions to end a restrained condition, except those defined by the cause. In the case if a Giant Toad, "If the toad dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it..." If you're restrained because you were tied with a rope, it doesn't end simply because the villain who tied you walks out of reach. If you are restrained by a character with the Grappler feat, "you and the creature are both restrained until the grapple ends." The 5 foot shove will break you free.
I like the interpretation to include the Grapple/Shove special attack as having disadvantage while restrained. However, the Ability Check is not an Attack Roll. It is a special attack using an ability check. The only times I've been able to think of where distinguishing this as an attack are: if an event or Reaction is triggered when someone makes an attack, and when Rob, the Barbarian, will lose his Rage if he has not taken damage or made an attack. Well he did make an attack, it was a grapple and he had advantage because of his Rage. All other instances seem to refer to being 'hit by an attack' or just 'attack rolls'.
The part that's really interesting me is swallowing a creature that is grappling the toad. If you have a grapple heavy character build who grapples, and shoves prone an enemy that then swallows it, it seems odd to keep the creature trapped prone with 0 movement, held in place by the contents of its stomach. Much less than it seems odd to shove a creature from within its stomach.
Extended Signature