I made a Monk that has a Passive Perception of 20 at Level 1 using the Feet Observant and a Mod of +3 and my +2 Proficiency. So my question is would i have to roll to do Perception checks or could i just use my Pass of 20 for my check.
the really simple answer to that is, "It's up to the DM to decide, based on their game and the circumstance"
The rules give a framework for applying them and there are a lot of discussions on the internet on when to use active rolls vs passive rolls, as well as the idea of using the passive score as a "cannot roll worse than this" floor.
It's up to each group (and ultimately the DM) to decide how they prefer to play it.
As Stormknight said, it's largely up to the DM. My interpretation is that a passive score is just that - passive. So when you walk into a room you notice things without trying. If you want to spend more effort to try to find something that you didn't find passively, then you roll an active check. Your passive would have already been checked before you make an active check.
How I’ve always interpreted the difference, is passive skills are generally much more along the lines of something noticed out of the corner of your eye, or your subconscious picking up on a clue’s existence, but not giving you specifics.
So, a passive perception would notice a flicker of movement near the window, a brief shadow passing in front of a light source, a hint of a familiar smell... A passive investigation might reveal that “something about this wall seems off, somehow”or “there seems to be some kind of pattern to these tiles”. But to get more specific or detailed information you need to roll your action be skills. Passive is mostly your brain telling you “hey, you should probably pay attention to this spot” Active is actually looking and trying to figure out what your brain noticed.
That said, I’d probably allow a bonus or advantage to an active roll that was following up on a successful passive one, since you have at least an idea where to be looking or what you’re looking for.
the way I play it at my table is simple - I have a character roll on their skills if they describe an action that pertains to it.
I use passive perception to describe to each of them what their character would normally pick up on. If they state they are looking for something or wish to investigate something further, then I have them roll and update the description of whatever it is they are looking at respectively.
As stormknight mentions that would be something to ask your DM. Passives are a bit of a weird one in how groups identify the way they work.
With passives for me I like the concept you often see in Movies. The "I've got a bad feeling about this" just before they get into some kind of trouble, or the "I feel like I'm being watched" just before the scene pans out and you see someone following/watching them.
Essentially the idea that something is an issue but not what it is specifically.
In my group we use the Passive Perception as a floor; whenever the party is looking around in more detail than I've described already they roll perception checks. If they roll lower than 10 I use their passive scores, if they roll higher then they use that result. Whenever there's a creature sneaking up them without them knowing, I use their passive perception to see if they spot it. However, if they're in a stressful situation, like a fight or something, I don't allow them to use their passive as a floor; they're simply too distracted.
The description of a passive ability is one that is in use all the time. So:
Suddenly using thief tools to open a lock? Nope.
Sailing a boat with water vehicles proficiency? Yes - but a roll may be called for in combat against weird effects
Investigating a corpse for loot? Nope unless you spend a while doing it
Investigating a room for secrets? Yes it takes a while.
Spotting something / hearing something? Yes unless you have recently recovered from blindness / deafness / had a thunderclap go off.
Now here is where it gets to the real matter. Does your DM want you to automatically notice every secret door as soon as you see it? Check with them first. If they for some reason dont want you to find secret doors except by random guess work and rolling or a 3 month archaeology dig then dont take this ability as it doesnt work as it clearly states. It gets worse because you should have to use an action to spot / hear things straining your senses normally taking the time to check things out with the removal of passive perception. Removing passive perception should also force all monsters to be effectively blind to the parties approach but I can guarantee you that isnt what will happen, its basically the fact that the +5 of the skill makes the number so high that a dedicated scout can scout... which shouldnt be a problem considering you sacrificed an ASI for this under most circumstances. The truly bad part about it is that even removing feats (there optional after all) wont prevent this - rogues with a high(ish) wisdom or bards and expertise will mean the same darn thing happens.
Countering this, scouting with 'stealth' costs half movement. moving at full speed could also mean disadvantage could be applied to perception cancelling out the bonus but dont do it as a DM unless you again want monsters to become mole people unless stationary. The fair alternative is that no one can maintain a level of clear headed concentration indefinitely, after keeping this level of paranoid head jerking up for hours (possibly equal to con mod or wis mod as its a mental strain) you may have disadvantage on further checks till you take a break (short rest) again that means those guards on duty for 8 hours would have disadvantage which is -5 on passive checks after a period of time passes.
Food for thought but this is DM prerogative by design, the skill sections have little in the way in guidance except mentioning in the dmg hat the hardest check would be 30 as almost impossible. Some maths on that: rogue with proficiency of 4, expertise x2, +2 wisdom = 20 fails. But a rogue with +6prof (max) x2expertise wisdom of +2 and observant has a passive of 29. If the scout wants to scout considering that, I would let them.
It takes 1 Action to make a check. 1 Action is 6 seconds. Do you have only 6 seconds to do a thing? If "yes" then roll a check.
If you have a vague amount of time, then you should be using passives.
Time could still be important. Take locks for example. The rogue checks the lock, rolls a check. If she succeeds she gets the lock in 6 seconds of work. If she doesn't it takes a minute.
Moondruidsneversleep, I disagree with you about Stealth. I know of no rule that says you have to move at half speed to benefit from Stealth. The only thing close to that is in the Activity While Traveling Section, you have to move at a "Slow Pace" to benefit from Stealth unless the party has a special rule to counter that.
I actually disagree with you about a lot. Passive should absolutely be used for Thieves Tools. Anyone who knows about picking locks knows it's a task that just takes time. Same with looting corpses. Unless there is a time pressure and/or the dead body has a *secret* hidden pocket, etc... There is no reason they wouldn't find everything on it.
That the whole thing about passives, it takes a time.
FMB - stealth speed - phb182 - whilst travelling at a slow pace the characters can move stealthily they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures. Sure you can play that slow pace creeping is superseded by combat and then you can switch to jogging stealthily but I believe thats a weird interpretation only a rogue would champion and this is a dissonance due to a disappointing lack of support in the skills section.
An apprentice locksmith can open a door in seconds, so can a B+E amateur with a little practice although might be harder to do as swiftly if it was a medieval lock with heavier tumblers, havent heard anything about whether it makes its easier or not, (and I'm not talking about using pneumatic lock picks or damaging the lock) but the dnd 5th ed skill use of lock picking is one action (or a bonus action with some cunning action. By your own interpretation if it takes a round you agree with me - its a check. I totally agree you could take your time to passively, I even mentioned that! But it then falls under DM interpretation because there are no rules on allowing or accounting for time and how much time before you could claim it and that makes this more complicated.
Returning to the Keapachi's question specifically FMB, do you believe perception is then passive as it takes time, or requires an action? because your answer could be interpreted either way (it does because you are always using it, or no its a roll because you have a split second to take in what you discover before acting) and you havent addressed it.
Referring to Keapachi's I think is should be both and advantage should generally go to the player. IE: If there is no time crunch and the players declare they are searching. They should roll (players like rolling), which is their first 6 seconds of searching, and then they succeed based on their Passive Perception. In my not so humble opinion This gives them a chance to "get lucky", but after that when they take their time they can't do better then their passive.
To not engage Passive Perception is to assume the character literally look for 6 seconds and give up, which isn't rational.
That said IF time *is* of the essence. The orc horde is beating down the door and the rogue has only combat turns to search the room for the mcguffin and jump out the window... then I'll probably not give them Passive Perception.
I personally think some of these issues were created because the rules went through a lot of revisions. For example the feat Dungeon Delver final bullet refers to a rule that doesn't exist: "You can search for traps while traveling at a normal pace, instead of only at a slow pace.". I believe they intended "pace" to be a normal thing while going through a dungeon, as you suggested, not just for Activity While Traveling, but those rules were removed, leaving this reference.
p182 for Traveling specifies travel over time. It doesn't say anything about what this means for combat time. Nothing RAW stops a character from using the Stealth Action then moving it's full speed, heck a lvl 2 Rogue could Dash after. The exception being The Rogue can not do "anything" that would draw attention to itself and can't enter a clear line of sight... all of that is fiat on what defines "draw attention".
The rules are also clear that Passive Perception is used for Surprise, Stealth Check, Detecting Traps, and Travel. This is referenced in p189 (PHB) for Surpise, p177 (PHB) for Hiding, p121 (DMG) for Traps in Play, and p182 (PHB) for Stealth/Notice Threats while Traveling. But from my recollection there is no other references to Passive Skills aside from Passive Checks, in the feat Observant giving a bonus to passive Investigation scores.
3rd edition had specific "take a 10" and "take a 20" rules under Checks without Rolling. 4th edition had specific Take 10, but removed take 20. What I dislike about the wording of Passive Skills in 5e, is they took the power to initiate them out of the player's hands and into the GM's hands.
Weirdly enough the Devs kind of brought back the idea of "pace" in a half assed way in XgtE. The Inquisitive Rogue has the 9th level ability Steady Eye, which gives Advantage to Perception & Investigation checks if the Rogue moves no more then half their speed on the same turn.
My apologizes Moondruidsneversleep, I disagreed with some of what you said and agreed with others and I wasn't as careful as I should have been to be clear about which parts.
The DM should be using your passive perception to determine what you notice unless you're actively looking for something, in which case you'd roll. The DM may choose to use other passive checks in certain situations as well.
Re: Stealth, moving at a slow pace only applies while traveling. Travel pace has no relevance in combat.
No apologies necessary, and thanks for the answer - the kind that invites a discussion to players new and old. The best kind!
You have hit on a 'did the designers want this or what the heck happened here?' situation. We cant know, we werent there but yes theres a lot of implication and skills have little to back up what they even do, let alone how long it might take. Theater of the mind is all well and good but I wish we had some stage directions sometimes :) (I cry for sleight of hand, getting absolutely zero love)
Whilst we both assume passives should be possible and have an idea how to implement them I am sure we could find situations we could disagree on in terms of how or where or.. other. Its in those moments we can hope to expand our own perspectives and create a brilliant new idea.
Well there we go Keapachi. Long story short, if your not running the game, check how your dm wants to play it, and everyone try to enjoy yourself regardless of whether you can see 'everything' passively or you have A.D.D. and sometimes see the 4 goblins in cover 200' away (yay a 20) and sometimes you have apparently been digging for nostril nuggets too much to notice the four giants you have been ambushed by... somehow... again (ahh not another 1)
I.C. its relevant to me because again (to me) if you have to travel slowly to be stealthy up to and including the moment before combat begins then suddenly move faster for no reason its hilarious and I wouldnt try and debate it. You can try and uphold that but your game mechanics might end up getting in the way of your world mechanics. That happens enough and the imagination part of the game can be lost to MMO style 'It is because it is: Hit your three buttons and chug potion beep boop' To me thats the opposite of why I want to play and how I want to run a game. I want to see clever strategies, Want to see unusual plans and combinations and dont want people saying 'I USE STEALTH' when they could want to belly crawl closer to the firelight listening for sounds to avoid patrolling guards, using the clouds as a guide to know when to crouch run without being seen. Off the back of that. I dont want roll initiative: Woo hoo i can stealth fast now. Its not for me.
Ultimately, it is up to the DM to decide how they want to play it in their game.
However, :), one common misconception which is repeated in this thread is that "passive" skills apply when the character is being passive ... i.e. doing nothing in particular ... and my interpretation is that isn't true.
Here is the rule:
"A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
A passive check is not one where the character is passive ... it is one in which the PLAYER is passive ... they are not rolling dice.
There are some examples above ... repeated tasks or when the DM wants to resolve a situation without rolling dice. In addition, there is a video on stealth and hiding in which Jeremy Crawford indicates that the passive skill can be considered a floor (at least in terms of passive perception).
For example, if a character is looking for a DC15 hidden door with a passive perception of 20 ... the DM might just narrate the result saying "After a few minutes of searching the room, you notice a faint line in wall, it looks like it could be a hidden door." A character with a passive perception of 14 on the other hand would not notice the same clue and would make a roll to see if they were able to see it or not. What's more, I would say that if you aren't looking carefully around the room in the first place, you aren't going to notice the subtle clues that would indicate the presence of a secret door. The DM could ask for a roll just to see if you happened to notice something even though you weren't looking for anything. This approach seems more consistent with the rules and more logical since characters who have a modifier to passive skills but not active ones aren't better at these tasks if they aren't paying attention or trying not to perform the task.
Every skill has a passive counterpart. It is up to the DM to decide whether to use them. Much of the time, using passive skills gives a much smoother narration of the storyline since you don't need to keep rolling dice for everything they might come across unless they aren't taking the appropriate action to find it.
Passive investigation is useful for when characters are searching rooms for clues and there is no limit on how long they can look. Even a couple of minutes represents potentially 20 checks so using a passive check might make sense since the action is being taken repeatedly.
Similarly, a passive insight check might be used if your character is having a long conversation with an NPC. The DM might check your passive insight and simply say that there is something odd about the person you are talking to or what they are saying.
Unlocking doors is another example. There are no critical failures to ability checks in 5e. Rolling a 1 is still 1+ modifiers. The rules specifically allow for multiple attempts at an action and even suggest an auto-success result if you spend 10x the normal time on the task. (equivalent to taking a 20 in previous versions). As a result, it makes sense to use passive lock picking skills to open a lock if there are no negative consequences to failing the first time.
DMG p237
"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task. However, no amount of repeating the check allows a character to turn an impossible task into a successful one."
Similarly, a high strength character is likely to eventually break down most doors. It is laughable when a DM resolves breaking down a solidly held door which requires a DC of 18 ... the 20 strength barbarian rolls a 1 and the 8 strength wizard rolls a 19. Most DMs fluff this by describing the wizard as finding another way to open the door ... but that wasn't what was happening ... the wizard was trying to force the door and just rolled well. In this case, a passive athletics check might have had the barbarian slamming open the door and everyone in the party being happier :)
Finally, the traveling rules specifically call out that, at least in those circumstances, if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings because you are engaged in a task, you can't use your passive perception to spot trouble. Passive perception isn't an always on ability when the character isn't paying attention or is otherwise being passive and doing nothing ...they actually have to be paying attention :)
"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats."
Anyway, I find a lot of uses for passive skill checks and they can often smooth the narration of the story and resolution of events but it is up to the DM how to use them and the desire to call for a dice roll whenever a player says they want to do something is very firmly entrenched in the hobby :)
I like what I see David2, I would suggest to avoid unpleasantness, that a party member is concentrating as default, it shouldnt be a 'you never said you were doing x' thing. That said how do you handle trying to use two skills at once, is this automatically time for rolls as you arent concentrating on one thing or could you benefit from passives. I will use some examples and give my take.
On a tight rope crossing a street, trying to listen / see if anyones noticed your shadow. (could go either way but a die roll makes it more will they wont they)
Sneaking up and keep an ear / eye out for threats. (probably let them have it if they built the character to do this, dont want to punish them for not being a pure murder machine)
Fishing (survival) and keeping an eye out for the weather front thats coming in fast (survival). (of course let it be passive! why are we rolling for fishing here, of course if its competitive fishing get the dice out everyone and no lightning fishing Ms. Spellcaster!
Jumping from chandelier to chandelier whilst spinning to cut the previous ones support rope as you do. (errr. I dont know. I mean thats athletics, acrobatics possibly twice so, if they are built for this possibly let it happen but there might be a disadvantage in there somewhere thats a whole lot that could go wrong)
You have hit on a 'did the designers want this or what the heck happened here?' situation. We cant know, we werent there but yes theres a lot of implication and skills have little to back up what they even do, let alone how long it might take.
I.C. its relevant to me because again (to me) if you have to travel slowly to be stealthy up to and including the moment before combat begins then suddenly move faster for no reason its hilarious and I wouldnt try and debate it.
Travelling and combat are extremely different situations and using stealth in each is likewise different. You move slower while travelling because you're pacing yourself and the goal of moving stealthily is just to avoid drawing attention to the party from potential enemies that don't know you're there yet. There's no reason to pace yourself in combat, other creatures will be making noise while fighting, and everyone's at least a little bit distracted. Besides, being stealthy in combat already comes with a movement penalty built-in: you have to spend your action to hide, which you could've instead used to dash (or dodge, or attack, or whatever.)
However, :), one common misconception which is repeated in this thread is that "passive" skills apply when the character is being passive ... i.e. doing nothing in particular ... and my interpretation is that isn't true.
That's definitely true for passive checks in general, but passive Perception has additional rules which basically boil down to you're always using your passive Perception, and the DM will use that to determine what you can notice if you're not actively searching, taking into consideration your position and whether you're distracted with other tasks.
I like what I see David2, I would suggest to avoid unpleasantness, that a party member is concentrating as default, it shouldnt be a 'you never said you were doing x' thing. That said how do you handle trying to use two skills at once, is this automatically time for rolls as you arent concentrating on one thing or could you benefit from passives. I will use some examples and give my take.
On a tight rope crossing a street, trying to listen / see if anyones noticed your shadow. (could go either way but a die roll makes it more will they wont they)
Sneaking up and keep an ear / eye out for threats. (probably let them have it if they built the character to do this, dont want to punish them for not being a pure murder machine)
Fishing (survival) and keeping an eye out for the weather front thats coming in fast (survival). (of course let it be passive! why are we rolling for fishing here, of course if its competitive fishing get the dice out everyone and no lightning fishing Ms. Spellcaster!
Jumping from chandelier to chandelier whilst spinning to cut the previous ones support rope as you do. (errr. I dont know. I mean thats athletics, acrobatics possibly twice so, if they are built for this possibly let it happen but there might be a disadvantage in there somewhere thats a whole lot that could go wrong)
I agree. For skills like perception, the character is always paying attention to their surroundings unless they are specifically doing something else. This gets back to the additional rules Inquisitive Coder mentioned regarding using passive perception to detect hidden creatures. Unless you are doing something else, you are always considered to be concentrating on watching your environment - especially in combat where you need to pay attention to everything if you want to survive.
On the other hand, passive investigation might not come into play until you were specifically investigating or searching for something though it would be a DM call since you might notice the clues needed using passive perception but the interpretation of those clues would require using investigation (passive or active ... maybe using passive as a floor unless there is time pressure or other external circumstances) to figure them out.
As another possible exmaple ... a rogue concentrating on picking a lock might not be able to use passive perception to detect someone sneaking up behind them since they are concentrating on a task and not paying complete attention to their environment ... alternatively, the DM could apply disadvantage (-5 passive perception) to a character concentrating on another task like this ... depends on how they want to play it.
Passive scores can be of great importance to the game, I like Passive Insight to see if someone is lying to you. If you ask the Player to roll Insight they are thinking boom the person is lying, If you ask for a Perception Check someone is sneaking up on them. It is being human to think that, passives let you surprise the PC's and that can be fun now cant it.
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I made a Monk that has a Passive Perception of 20 at Level 1 using the Feet Observant and a Mod of +3 and my +2 Proficiency. So my question is would i have to roll to do Perception checks or could i just use my Pass of 20 for my check.
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D&D Beyond FoundersHi there Keapachi,
the really simple answer to that is, "It's up to the DM to decide, based on their game and the circumstance"
The rules give a framework for applying them and there are a lot of discussions on the internet on when to use active rolls vs passive rolls, as well as the idea of using the passive score as a "cannot roll worse than this" floor.
It's up to each group (and ultimately the DM) to decide how they prefer to play it.
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
As Stormknight said, it's largely up to the DM. My interpretation is that a passive score is just that - passive. So when you walk into a room you notice things without trying. If you want to spend more effort to try to find something that you didn't find passively, then you roll an active check. Your passive would have already been checked before you make an active check.
How I’ve always interpreted the difference, is passive skills are generally much more along the lines of something noticed out of the corner of your eye, or your subconscious picking up on a clue’s existence, but not giving you specifics.
So, a passive perception would notice a flicker of movement near the window, a brief shadow passing in front of a light source, a hint of a familiar smell... A passive investigation might reveal that “something about this wall seems off, somehow”or “there seems to be some kind of pattern to these tiles”. But to get more specific or detailed information you need to roll your action be skills. Passive is mostly your brain telling you “hey, you should probably pay attention to this spot” Active is actually looking and trying to figure out what your brain noticed.
That said, I’d probably allow a bonus or advantage to an active roll that was following up on a successful passive one, since you have at least an idea where to be looking or what you’re looking for.
the way I play it at my table is simple - I have a character roll on their skills if they describe an action that pertains to it.
I use passive perception to describe to each of them what their character would normally pick up on. If they state they are looking for something or wish to investigate something further, then I have them roll and update the description of whatever it is they are looking at respectively.
As stormknight mentions that would be something to ask your DM. Passives are a bit of a weird one in how groups identify the way they work.
With passives for me I like the concept you often see in Movies. The "I've got a bad feeling about this" just before they get into some kind of trouble, or the "I feel like I'm being watched" just before the scene pans out and you see someone following/watching them.
Essentially the idea that something is an issue but not what it is specifically.
- Loswaith
In my group we use the Passive Perception as a floor; whenever the party is looking around in more detail than I've described already they roll perception checks. If they roll lower than 10 I use their passive scores, if they roll higher then they use that result. Whenever there's a creature sneaking up them without them knowing, I use their passive perception to see if they spot it. However, if they're in a stressful situation, like a fight or something, I don't allow them to use their passive as a floor; they're simply too distracted.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
The description of a passive ability is one that is in use all the time. So:
Suddenly using thief tools to open a lock? Nope.
Sailing a boat with water vehicles proficiency? Yes - but a roll may be called for in combat against weird effects
Investigating a corpse for loot? Nope unless you spend a while doing it
Investigating a room for secrets? Yes it takes a while.
Spotting something / hearing something? Yes unless you have recently recovered from blindness / deafness / had a thunderclap go off.
Now here is where it gets to the real matter. Does your DM want you to automatically notice every secret door as soon as you see it? Check with them first. If they for some reason dont want you to find secret doors except by random guess work and rolling or a 3 month archaeology dig then dont take this ability as it doesnt work as it clearly states. It gets worse because you should have to use an action to spot / hear things straining your senses normally taking the time to check things out with the removal of passive perception. Removing passive perception should also force all monsters to be effectively blind to the parties approach but I can guarantee you that isnt what will happen, its basically the fact that the +5 of the skill makes the number so high that a dedicated scout can scout... which shouldnt be a problem considering you sacrificed an ASI for this under most circumstances. The truly bad part about it is that even removing feats (there optional after all) wont prevent this - rogues with a high(ish) wisdom or bards and expertise will mean the same darn thing happens.
Countering this, scouting with 'stealth' costs half movement. moving at full speed could also mean disadvantage could be applied to perception cancelling out the bonus but dont do it as a DM unless you again want monsters to become mole people unless stationary. The fair alternative is that no one can maintain a level of clear headed concentration indefinitely, after keeping this level of paranoid head jerking up for hours (possibly equal to con mod or wis mod as its a mental strain) you may have disadvantage on further checks till you take a break (short rest) again that means those guards on duty for 8 hours would have disadvantage which is -5 on passive checks after a period of time passes.
Food for thought but this is DM prerogative by design, the skill sections have little in the way in guidance except mentioning in the dmg hat the hardest check would be 30 as almost impossible. Some maths on that: rogue with proficiency of 4, expertise x2, +2 wisdom = 20 fails. But a rogue with +6prof (max) x2expertise wisdom of +2 and observant has a passive of 29. If the scout wants to scout considering that, I would let them.
#edited for some brain fart spelling moments
My take on Passives is this.
It takes 1 Action to make a check. 1 Action is 6 seconds. Do you have only 6 seconds to do a thing? If "yes" then roll a check.
If you have a vague amount of time, then you should be using passives.
Time could still be important. Take locks for example. The rogue checks the lock, rolls a check. If she succeeds she gets the lock in 6 seconds of work. If she doesn't it takes a minute.
Moondruidsneversleep, I disagree with you about Stealth.
I know of no rule that says you have to move at half speed to benefit from Stealth. The only thing close to that is in the Activity While Traveling Section, you have to move at a "Slow Pace" to benefit from Stealth unless the party has a special rule to counter that.
I actually disagree with you about a lot. Passive should absolutely be used for Thieves Tools. Anyone who knows about picking locks knows it's a task that just takes time.
Same with looting corpses. Unless there is a time pressure and/or the dead body has a *secret* hidden pocket, etc... There is no reason they wouldn't find everything on it.
That the whole thing about passives, it takes a time.
FMB - stealth speed - phb182 - whilst travelling at a slow pace the characters can move stealthily they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures. Sure you can play that slow pace creeping is superseded by combat and then you can switch to jogging stealthily but I believe thats a weird interpretation only a rogue would champion and this is a dissonance due to a disappointing lack of support in the skills section.
An apprentice locksmith can open a door in seconds, so can a B+E amateur with a little practice although might be harder to do as swiftly if it was a medieval lock with heavier tumblers, havent heard anything about whether it makes its easier or not, (and I'm not talking about using pneumatic lock picks or damaging the lock) but the dnd 5th ed skill use of lock picking is one action (or a bonus action with some cunning action. By your own interpretation if it takes a round you agree with me - its a check. I totally agree you could take your time to passively, I even mentioned that! But it then falls under DM interpretation because there are no rules on allowing or accounting for time and how much time before you could claim it and that makes this more complicated.
Returning to the Keapachi's question specifically FMB, do you believe perception is then passive as it takes time, or requires an action? because your answer could be interpreted either way (it does because you are always using it, or no its a roll because you have a split second to take in what you discover before acting) and you havent addressed it.
Referring to Keapachi's I think is should be both and advantage should generally go to the player.
IE: If there is no time crunch and the players declare they are searching.
They should roll (players like rolling), which is their first 6 seconds of searching, and then they succeed based on their Passive Perception.
In my not so humble opinion This gives them a chance to "get lucky", but after that when they take their time they can't do better then their passive.
To not engage Passive Perception is to assume the character literally look for 6 seconds and give up, which isn't rational.
That said IF time *is* of the essence. The orc horde is beating down the door and the rogue has only combat turns to search the room for the mcguffin and jump out the window... then I'll probably not give them Passive Perception.
I personally think some of these issues were created because the rules went through a lot of revisions. For example the feat Dungeon Delver final bullet refers to a rule that doesn't exist: "You can search for traps while traveling at a normal pace, instead of only at a slow pace.". I believe they intended "pace" to be a normal thing while going through a dungeon, as you suggested, not just for Activity While Traveling, but those rules were removed, leaving this reference.
p182 for Traveling specifies travel over time. It doesn't say anything about what this means for combat time. Nothing RAW stops a character from using the Stealth Action then moving it's full speed, heck a lvl 2 Rogue could Dash after. The exception being The Rogue can not do "anything" that would draw attention to itself and can't enter a clear line of sight... all of that is fiat on what defines "draw attention".
The rules are also clear that Passive Perception is used for Surprise, Stealth Check, Detecting Traps, and Travel. This is referenced in p189 (PHB) for Surpise, p177 (PHB) for Hiding, p121 (DMG) for Traps in Play, and p182 (PHB) for Stealth/Notice Threats while Traveling.
But from my recollection there is no other references to Passive Skills aside from Passive Checks, in the feat Observant giving a bonus to passive Investigation scores.
3rd edition had specific "take a 10" and "take a 20" rules under Checks without Rolling.
4th edition had specific Take 10, but removed take 20.
What I dislike about the wording of Passive Skills in 5e, is they took the power to initiate them out of the player's hands and into the GM's hands.
Weirdly enough the Devs kind of brought back the idea of "pace" in a half assed way in XgtE. The Inquisitive Rogue has the 9th level ability Steady Eye, which gives Advantage to Perception & Investigation checks if the Rogue moves no more then half their speed on the same turn.
My apologizes Moondruidsneversleep, I disagreed with some of what you said and agreed with others and I wasn't as careful as I should have been to be clear about which parts.
The DM should be using your passive perception to determine what you notice unless you're actively looking for something, in which case you'd roll. The DM may choose to use other passive checks in certain situations as well.
Re: Stealth, moving at a slow pace only applies while traveling. Travel pace has no relevance in combat.
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No apologies necessary, and thanks for the answer - the kind that invites a discussion to players new and old. The best kind!
You have hit on a 'did the designers want this or what the heck happened here?' situation. We cant know, we werent there but yes theres a lot of implication and skills have little to back up what they even do, let alone how long it might take. Theater of the mind is all well and good but I wish we had some stage directions sometimes :) (I cry for sleight of hand, getting absolutely zero love)
Whilst we both assume passives should be possible and have an idea how to implement them I am sure we could find situations we could disagree on in terms of how or where or.. other. Its in those moments we can hope to expand our own perspectives and create a brilliant new idea.
Well there we go Keapachi. Long story short, if your not running the game, check how your dm wants to play it, and everyone try to enjoy yourself regardless of whether you can see 'everything' passively or you have A.D.D. and sometimes see the 4 goblins in cover 200' away (yay a 20) and sometimes you have apparently been digging for nostril nuggets too much to notice the four giants you have been ambushed by... somehow... again (ahh not another 1)
I.C. its relevant to me because again (to me) if you have to travel slowly to be stealthy up to and including the moment before combat begins then suddenly move faster for no reason its hilarious and I wouldnt try and debate it. You can try and uphold that but your game mechanics might end up getting in the way of your world mechanics. That happens enough and the imagination part of the game can be lost to MMO style 'It is because it is: Hit your three buttons and chug potion beep boop' To me thats the opposite of why I want to play and how I want to run a game. I want to see clever strategies, Want to see unusual plans and combinations and dont want people saying 'I USE STEALTH' when they could want to belly crawl closer to the firelight listening for sounds to avoid patrolling guards, using the clouds as a guide to know when to crouch run without being seen. Off the back of that. I dont want roll initiative: Woo hoo i can stealth fast now. Its not for me.
Ultimately, it is up to the DM to decide how they want to play it in their game.
However, :), one common misconception which is repeated in this thread is that "passive" skills apply when the character is being passive ... i.e. doing nothing in particular ... and my interpretation is that isn't true.
Here is the rule:
"A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
A passive check is not one where the character is passive ... it is one in which the PLAYER is passive ... they are not rolling dice.
There are some examples above ... repeated tasks or when the DM wants to resolve a situation without rolling dice. In addition, there is a video on stealth and hiding in which Jeremy Crawford indicates that the passive skill can be considered a floor (at least in terms of passive perception).
For example, if a character is looking for a DC15 hidden door with a passive perception of 20 ... the DM might just narrate the result saying "After a few minutes of searching the room, you notice a faint line in wall, it looks like it could be a hidden door." A character with a passive perception of 14 on the other hand would not notice the same clue and would make a roll to see if they were able to see it or not. What's more, I would say that if you aren't looking carefully around the room in the first place, you aren't going to notice the subtle clues that would indicate the presence of a secret door. The DM could ask for a roll just to see if you happened to notice something even though you weren't looking for anything. This approach seems more consistent with the rules and more logical since characters who have a modifier to passive skills but not active ones aren't better at these tasks if they aren't paying attention or trying not to perform the task.
Every skill has a passive counterpart. It is up to the DM to decide whether to use them. Much of the time, using passive skills gives a much smoother narration of the storyline since you don't need to keep rolling dice for everything they might come across unless they aren't taking the appropriate action to find it.
Passive investigation is useful for when characters are searching rooms for clues and there is no limit on how long they can look. Even a couple of minutes represents potentially 20 checks so using a passive check might make sense since the action is being taken repeatedly.
Similarly, a passive insight check might be used if your character is having a long conversation with an NPC. The DM might check your passive insight and simply say that there is something odd about the person you are talking to or what they are saying.
Unlocking doors is another example. There are no critical failures to ability checks in 5e. Rolling a 1 is still 1+ modifiers. The rules specifically allow for multiple attempts at an action and even suggest an auto-success result if you spend 10x the normal time on the task. (equivalent to taking a 20 in previous versions). As a result, it makes sense to use passive lock picking skills to open a lock if there are no negative consequences to failing the first time.
DMG p237
"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task. However, no amount of repeating the check allows a character to turn an impossible task into a successful one."
Similarly, a high strength character is likely to eventually break down most doors. It is laughable when a DM resolves breaking down a solidly held door which requires a DC of 18 ... the 20 strength barbarian rolls a 1 and the 8 strength wizard rolls a 19. Most DMs fluff this by describing the wizard as finding another way to open the door ... but that wasn't what was happening ... the wizard was trying to force the door and just rolled well. In this case, a passive athletics check might have had the barbarian slamming open the door and everyone in the party being happier :)
Finally, the traveling rules specifically call out that, at least in those circumstances, if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings because you are engaged in a task, you can't use your passive perception to spot trouble. Passive perception isn't an always on ability when the character isn't paying attention or is otherwise being passive and doing nothing ...they actually have to be paying attention :)
"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats."
Anyway, I find a lot of uses for passive skill checks and they can often smooth the narration of the story and resolution of events but it is up to the DM how to use them and the desire to call for a dice roll whenever a player says they want to do something is very firmly entrenched in the hobby :)
I like what I see David2, I would suggest to avoid unpleasantness, that a party member is concentrating as default, it shouldnt be a 'you never said you were doing x' thing. That said how do you handle trying to use two skills at once, is this automatically time for rolls as you arent concentrating on one thing or could you benefit from passives. I will use some examples and give my take.
On a tight rope crossing a street, trying to listen / see if anyones noticed your shadow. (could go either way but a die roll makes it more will they wont they)
Sneaking up and keep an ear / eye out for threats. (probably let them have it if they built the character to do this, dont want to punish them for not being a pure murder machine)
Fishing (survival) and keeping an eye out for the weather front thats coming in fast (survival). (of course let it be passive! why are we rolling for fishing here, of course if its competitive fishing get the dice out everyone and no lightning fishing Ms. Spellcaster!
Jumping from chandelier to chandelier whilst spinning to cut the previous ones support rope as you do. (errr. I dont know. I mean thats athletics, acrobatics possibly twice so, if they are built for this possibly let it happen but there might be a disadvantage in there somewhere thats a whole lot that could go wrong)
Passive - You notice the cobwebs moving from some unknown breeze
Active - You find the crack in the wall where the breeze is coming from, revealing a secret door.
Thanks to the magic of Twitter we can just ask them. "Design intent: passive Wisdom (Perception) is the norm. Only have someone roll if they initiate a search."
Travelling and combat are extremely different situations and using stealth in each is likewise different. You move slower while travelling because you're pacing yourself and the goal of moving stealthily is just to avoid drawing attention to the party from potential enemies that don't know you're there yet. There's no reason to pace yourself in combat, other creatures will be making noise while fighting, and everyone's at least a little bit distracted. Besides, being stealthy in combat already comes with a movement penalty built-in: you have to spend your action to hide, which you could've instead used to dash (or dodge, or attack, or whatever.)
It's definitely intended that stealth imposes no movement reduction in combat beyond using up your action.
That's definitely true for passive checks in general, but passive Perception has additional rules which basically boil down to you're always using your passive Perception, and the DM will use that to determine what you can notice if you're not actively searching, taking into consideration your position and whether you're distracted with other tasks.
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I agree. For skills like perception, the character is always paying attention to their surroundings unless they are specifically doing something else. This gets back to the additional rules Inquisitive Coder mentioned regarding using passive perception to detect hidden creatures. Unless you are doing something else, you are always considered to be concentrating on watching your environment - especially in combat where you need to pay attention to everything if you want to survive.
On the other hand, passive investigation might not come into play until you were specifically investigating or searching for something though it would be a DM call since you might notice the clues needed using passive perception but the interpretation of those clues would require using investigation (passive or active ... maybe using passive as a floor unless there is time pressure or other external circumstances) to figure them out.
As another possible exmaple ... a rogue concentrating on picking a lock might not be able to use passive perception to detect someone sneaking up behind them since they are concentrating on a task and not paying complete attention to their environment ... alternatively, the DM could apply disadvantage (-5 passive perception) to a character concentrating on another task like this ... depends on how they want to play it.
Passive scores can be of great importance to the game, I like Passive Insight to see if someone is lying to you. If you ask the Player to roll Insight they are thinking boom the person is lying, If you ask for a Perception Check someone is sneaking up on them. It is being human to think that, passives let you surprise the PC's and that can be fun now cant it.