This was a question that came up while I was building a character recently, I was torn between dual-wielding daggers vs using the versatile weapon property to two-hand a longsword. Both seemed pretty fitting for the character so I thought I'd put them to the test and do some, admittedly probably flimsy, math to settle which would be the best damage-dealer overall. Here are my findings:
For these calculations I assumed a 1st level character with a +2 strength modifier and +2 proficiency bonus who does not make use of finesse and has proficiency with both weapons. To determine which attacks hit or miss, I used AC 13 as a stand-in for an average low CR creature with no resistances or immunities.
First, the daggers: Assuming each round uses the action and bonus action to attack with the first and second dagger accordingly, there is a 20% chanceof missing both strikes and dealing no damage. In any one given round, you have a 11.38% chance of dealing a minimum of 3 damage. Dealing maximum damage is a highly improbable feat with only a 0.0009765625% (approx. a 1/100,000 chance) of dealing the maximum 20 damage. Each attempted attack, if it doesn't fail, is most likely to deal 6 damage; 13.77% of all attempted attacks resolve with 6 damage. Over the course of 10,000 simulated attempts, the dual-wielding daggers dealt an average of 5.2 damage per turn.
Up next, the longsword. Here there is a 40% chance of missing on any given turn. The longsword has a 5% chance to deal a minimum of 3 damage. There is a 0.05% chance of dealing a maximum of 22 damage. The longsword is pretty consistently balanced from 3 - 13 damage, with the most likely attempt having a 5.5% chance of dealing 13 damage. Over the course of 10,000 simulated attempts, the longsword dealt an average of 5 damage each turn.
CONCLUSION: These two are fairly balanced. In the long run, the daggers' lower miss chance allows for a slightly higher damage-per-turn. However, the longsword out-classes them in terms of sheer damage in any one given hit. A character that makes use the daggers' thrown property with a longsword follow-up can have the best of both worlds.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
(Average damage on a hit (4.5 for 1d4+2) * chance to hit) + (average extra damage on a crit * chance to crit (1/20 by default)) = actual average damage.
4.45 or 4.450 for daggers, assuming no Two-Weapon Fighting. 4.775 for two-handed longsword. Don't know what you did to get your numbers.
By the way, if you're proficient with longswords, you're probably proficient with handaxes, which are effectively d6 daggers without finesse.
Total = 4.45 (without two weapon fighting style) average damage/rd
with two weapon fighting style this becomes: 5.65 average damage/rd
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So two daggers with the two weapon fighting style will out damage a long sword held two handed (since dueling doesn't apply to the longsword when wielded with two hands).
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What about longsword + shield vs 2 daggers?
4.175 without dueling, 5.375 with dueling average damage/rd
Long sword with dueling does almost as much damage as two daggers with two weapon fighting feature.
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What about great weapon fighting which would apply to any melee weapon attack made with two hands?
Average damage is (3-10) = 6.5 * 0.8 + 5.5 * 0.2 = 6.3 +2 (stat)
Long sword with great weapon fighting = 0.6 * 8.3 + 0.05 * 5.5 = 5.255 average damage/rd
Long sword used two handed with great weapon fighting is worse than either a single handed long sword with dueling or two daggers with the two weapon fighting feature.
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What about a great sword with great weapon fighting?
Two handed greatsword = 0.6 * 10.33 + 0.05 * 7 = 6.548 average damage/rd
Two handed sword without gwf = 5.75 average damage/rd
The two handed sword outdamages both the longsword used with one or two hands or the two daggers used with the two weapon fighting style with or without the great weapon fighting style.
(Average damage on a hit (4.5 for 1d4+2) * chance to hit) + (average extra damage on a crit * chance to crit (1/20 by default)) = actual average damage.
4.45 or 4.450 for daggers, assuming no Two-Weapon Fighting. 4.775 for two-handed longsword. Don't know what you did to get your numbers.
By the way, if you're proficient with longswords, you're probably proficient with handaxes, which are effectively d6 daggers without finesse.
Dang, I see what happened, I thought that the second attack didn't use the modifier on the ATTACK and damage so my whole chart was skewed, oops. 😅
What class are we talking? Remember that some classes get more damage once per turn, like Rogue Sneak Attack damage which benefit from multiple attacks in case you miss. Also, a paladin might want to use Divine Smite, so double attacks give more opportunity to do that.
Also dual wielding uses a bonus action that you then can't use for other things. Dual wielding daggers is a common trope and works well thematically, but absent Homebrew generally doesn't keep up mechanically unfortunately.
Not sure why no one is bringing up extra attacks. Assuming you are playing a class that provides extra attacks then using a longsword or greatsword really starts to pull ahead. Every additional attack will only increase the difference. So using action surge or haste will really leave daggers in the dust.
Damage based on 2 attacks/turn (approx 5th level)
Daggers (w twf) = 8.475/rd
Longsword (w 2hds) = 9.55/rd
Longsword (w dueling) = 10.75/rd
Longsword (w gwf) = 10.51/rd
Greatsword (w gwf)= 13.096/rd
And we are not evening considering feats or ASI. I suspect the difference will become even greater if you are still using daggers. My conclusion would be that daggers are only good to main if no other options are available or you like the idea of using daggers for a RP concept.
One suggestion...if you are really interested in playing a dagger fighter you might consider some levels of monk. Daggers are considered monk weapons and can be used with their martial arts feature. This means that the damage die can increase depending on how many levels you dip into monk.
To answer the question simply. Using Two weapons does more damage at low levels than only using one, however it slowly gets left behind as you level up and start gaining more abilities that use the bonus action, and other options scale better with extra attack which most martial classes get.
But in the end, it is only a difference of 1 to 4 damage per turn, and with the dual wielder feat, the gap can be closed further.
I'm rolling bard so I think I'm committing to the longsword either way, I need both hands free when I need to pull out the pipes for those VSM spells and it also leaves me with a free hand for VS spells.
I'm rolling bard so I think I'm committing to the longsword either way, I need both hands free when I need to pull out the pipes for those VSM spells and it also leaves me with a free hand for VS spells.
Unless you're playing a Swords Bard, which can use a (simple or martial) weapon they're proficient with as a spellcasting focus.
Some time ago I asked about how to make daggers "work" in terms of damage, and the long and short of it is: daggers will never outdamage other weapon choices, but it might not matter much, because in some cases the difference is negligible (Rogues, whose Sneak Attack damage quickly overtakes the main weapon's damage) or nonexistent (Monks, who can use their Martial Arts damage die), and you're also gaining some utility (ability to attack at range without having to switch weapons, ease of hiding the daggers, etc.). So, yeah, a Fighter using a single dagger won't really work very well (even if DEX based, other finesse weapons are better), but a dual-dagger-wielding Rogue will see very little damage improvement switching to dual-short-swords (~2 damage per round, compared to however-many d6's they're rolling for sneak attack), and forgoes the option to throw a dagger at a surprise opponent, and will find it more difficult to hide the shortswords on his person.
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This was a question that came up while I was building a character recently, I was torn between dual-wielding daggers vs using the versatile weapon property to two-hand a longsword. Both seemed pretty fitting for the character so I thought I'd put them to the test and do some, admittedly probably flimsy, math to settle which would be the best damage-dealer overall. Here are my findings:
For these calculations I assumed a 1st level character with a +2 strength modifier and +2 proficiency bonus who does not make use of finesse and has proficiency with both weapons. To determine which attacks hit or miss, I used AC 13 as a stand-in for an average low CR creature with no resistances or immunities.
First, the daggers: Assuming each round uses the action and bonus action to attack with the first and second dagger accordingly, there is a 20% chance of missing both strikes and dealing no damage. In any one given round, you have a 11.38% chance of dealing a minimum of 3 damage. Dealing maximum damage is a highly improbable feat with only a 0.0009765625% (approx. a 1/100,000 chance) of dealing the maximum 20 damage. Each attempted attack, if it doesn't fail, is most likely to deal 6 damage; 13.77% of all attempted attacks resolve with 6 damage. Over the course of 10,000 simulated attempts, the dual-wielding daggers dealt an average of 5.2 damage per turn.
Up next, the longsword. Here there is a 40% chance of missing on any given turn. The longsword has a 5% chance to deal a minimum of 3 damage. There is a 0.05% chance of dealing a maximum of 22 damage. The longsword is pretty consistently balanced from 3 - 13 damage, with the most likely attempt having a 5.5% chance of dealing 13 damage. Over the course of 10,000 simulated attempts, the longsword dealt an average of 5 damage each turn.
CONCLUSION: These two are fairly balanced. In the long run, the daggers' lower miss chance allows for a slightly higher damage-per-turn. However, the longsword out-classes them in terms of sheer damage in any one given hit. A character that makes use the daggers' thrown property with a longsword follow-up can have the best of both worlds.
(Average damage on a hit (4.5 for 1d4+2) * chance to hit) + (average extra damage on a crit * chance to crit (1/20 by default)) = actual average damage.
4.45 or 4.450 for daggers, assuming no Two-Weapon Fighting. 4.775 for two-handed longsword. Don't know what you did to get your numbers.
By the way, if you're proficient with longswords, you're probably proficient with handaxes, which are effectively d6 daggers without finesse.
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With two daggers:
Chance that both miss = 0.4 x 0.4 = 0.16 = 16%
Chance that both hit = 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.36 = 36%
Chance of one hit = 1.00 - 0.16 - 0.36 = 0.48 = 48%
Proficiency = +2, str = +2, AC=13 ... required to hit = 9 = 60%
Longsword - chance to hit = 60%
Longsword - chance to crit = 5%
Average damage = 5.5 +2 (stat) = 7.5
0.6 * (7.5) + 0.05 * 5.5 = 4.775 average damage/rd
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Daggers average damage = 2.5 +2 (stat)
main hand: 4.5 * 0.6 + 0.05 * 2.5 = 2.825
second attack: 2.5 * 0.6 + 0.05*2.5 = 1.625
Total = 4.45 (without two weapon fighting style) average damage/rd
with two weapon fighting style this becomes: 5.65 average damage/rd
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So two daggers with the two weapon fighting style will out damage a long sword held two handed (since dueling doesn't apply to the longsword when wielded with two hands).
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What about longsword + shield vs 2 daggers?
4.175 without dueling, 5.375 with dueling average damage/rd
Long sword with dueling does almost as much damage as two daggers with two weapon fighting feature.
-------------
What about great weapon fighting which would apply to any melee weapon attack made with two hands?
Average damage is (3-10) = 6.5 * 0.8 + 5.5 * 0.2 = 6.3 +2 (stat)
Long sword with great weapon fighting = 0.6 * 8.3 + 0.05 * 5.5 = 5.255 average damage/rd
Long sword used two handed with great weapon fighting is worse than either a single handed long sword with dueling or two daggers with the two weapon fighting feature.
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What about a great sword with great weapon fighting?
damage = (3-6) = (4.5 *0.66 + 3.5*0.33) * 2 = 8.33 +2 (stat)
Two handed greatsword = 0.6 * 10.33 + 0.05 * 7 = 6.548 average damage/rd
Two handed sword without gwf = 5.75 average damage/rd
The two handed sword outdamages both the longsword used with one or two hands or the two daggers used with the two weapon fighting style with or without the great weapon fighting style.
Dang, I see what happened, I thought that the second attack didn't use the modifier on the ATTACK and damage so my whole chart was skewed, oops. 😅
What class are we talking? Remember that some classes get more damage once per turn, like Rogue Sneak Attack damage which benefit from multiple attacks in case you miss. Also, a paladin might want to use Divine Smite, so double attacks give more opportunity to do that.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Also dual wielding uses a bonus action that you then can't use for other things. Dual wielding daggers is a common trope and works well thematically, but absent Homebrew generally doesn't keep up mechanically unfortunately.
Not sure why no one is bringing up extra attacks. Assuming you are playing a class that provides extra attacks then using a longsword or greatsword really starts to pull ahead. Every additional attack will only increase the difference. So using action surge or haste will really leave daggers in the dust.
Damage based on 2 attacks/turn (approx 5th level)
Daggers (w twf) = 8.475/rd
Longsword (w 2hds) = 9.55/rd
Longsword (w dueling) = 10.75/rd
Longsword (w gwf) = 10.51/rd
Greatsword (w gwf)= 13.096/rd
And we are not evening considering feats or ASI. I suspect the difference will become even greater if you are still using daggers. My conclusion would be that daggers are only good to main if no other options are available or you like the idea of using daggers for a RP concept.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
One suggestion...if you are really interested in playing a dagger fighter you might consider some levels of monk. Daggers are considered monk weapons and can be used with their martial arts feature. This means that the damage die can increase depending on how many levels you dip into monk.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
To answer the question simply. Using Two weapons does more damage at low levels than only using one, however it slowly gets left behind as you level up and start gaining more abilities that use the bonus action, and other options scale better with extra attack which most martial classes get.
But in the end, it is only a difference of 1 to 4 damage per turn, and with the dual wielder feat, the gap can be closed further.
Polearm Master feat utilizes your bonus action without giving up damage. But that’s a different type of character than one fighting with two daggers.
I'm rolling bard so I think I'm committing to the longsword either way, I need both hands free when I need to pull out the pipes for those VSM spells and it also leaves me with a free hand for VS spells.
Unless you're playing a Swords Bard, which can use a (simple or martial) weapon they're proficient with as a spellcasting focus.
Some time ago I asked about how to make daggers "work" in terms of damage, and the long and short of it is: daggers will never outdamage other weapon choices, but it might not matter much, because in some cases the difference is negligible (Rogues, whose Sneak Attack damage quickly overtakes the main weapon's damage) or nonexistent (Monks, who can use their Martial Arts damage die), and you're also gaining some utility (ability to attack at range without having to switch weapons, ease of hiding the daggers, etc.). So, yeah, a Fighter using a single dagger won't really work very well (even if DEX based, other finesse weapons are better), but a dual-dagger-wielding Rogue will see very little damage improvement switching to dual-short-swords (~2 damage per round, compared to however-many d6's they're rolling for sneak attack), and forgoes the option to throw a dagger at a surprise opponent, and will find it more difficult to hide the shortswords on his person.