Then what is an Arcane Focus (Quarterstaff)? If they've already covered elsewhere that Staffs and Wooden Staffs can be used as quarterstaffs, why not just say Arcane Focus (Staff)?
Why? Because of bad writing and poor editing (nothing new for D&D) from JC and pals. Also the designers expect players and, especially, DM's to not be stupid. The list of starting equipment absolutely should have said "Arcane Focus (Staff)" but that fact that they botched that line doesn't change the fact that the item you are given is primarily an arcane focus, the part in the parenthetical doesn't change the base category of the item. So any argument that you should ignore the list (and rules) for arcane focuses and instead go look in the weapon section doesn't pass the smell test for me. And this is especially true for anyone that has played with the 2014 rules as they also worked in the same way, complete with poorly worded and somewhat confusing rules about it.
Arguing from "anyone that has played with the 2014 rules as they also worked in the same way" despite the differences in the text is putting the cart before the horse. You already decided the result you want and just argue to get there. That isn't helpful.
In fact your statements aren't even internally consistent. You are arguing at the same time that the thing they give you is an arcane focus despite the parenthetical, and yet in the next breath saying the thing they give you "doesn't pass the smell test for [you]" because it is a weapon and using it as a focus would ignore the rules for an arcane focus.
I guess that means you think that the ruleset that they gave us is broken. Sure, and maybe they will change something in errata. But in the meantime our understanding should come from what is written down in the 2024 rules.
If they meant "staff" then saying "arcane focus (quarterstaff)" is the most roundabout and backwards way to do it. It is far simpler to assume the rules as written are saying what is written and not filled with hidden, unintuitive, linguistic trap meanings until given info otherwise. That is to say, a quarterstaff that they give you as part of your starting equipment is in fact a focus.
The book, again, is very clear that "quarterstaff" and "arcane focus (quarterstaff)" are different items,
Just for the record, the book is in no way clear about that. That's why this thread exists
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I guess that means you think that the ruleset that they gave us is broken. Sure, and maybe they will change something in errata. But in the meantime our understanding should come from what is written down in the 2024 rules.
No it isn't broken but yes it should receive an errata. The list of starting equipment for Wizards should read "Arcane Focus (Staff)" and nothing else. If they then want to rely on us understanding what they mean when the description of the staff says "(also a Quarterstaff)" or if they want to add more clarification about it a different matter.
If they meant "staff" then saying "arcane focus (quarterstaff)" is the most roundabout and backwards way to do it.
No it really isn't, it is quite a small and easy mistake to make when their intention is to give you an item that can be used both as a focus and as a quarterstaff. It is annoying that they continually fail at these things
It is far simpler to assume the rules as written are saying what is written and not filled with hidden, unintuitive, linguistic trap meanings until given info otherwise. That is to say, a quarterstaff that they give you as part of your starting equipment is in fact a focus.
But that's the thing, no one is disagreeing with you here. The item a Wizard (and a Druid) gets from the start is usable as an arcane focus and as a quarterstaff. The thing people disagree with is when you claim that this means that all quarterstaffs can be used as a focus. You seem to refuse to accept that there is a difference between an item named "Quarterstaff" and an item named "Arcane Focus" and I find that really surprising (even when it says "Quarterstaff" in the parenthetical).
The disagreement is because that isn’t how any of the other casting classes work. Try to look for the pattern when you exclude wizard and Druid, then compare back.
The disagreement is because that isn’t how any of the other casting classes work. Try to look for the pattern when you exclude wizard and Druid, then compare back.
The reason for this is because in the case of classes such as the Ranger or the Sorcerer, they are given a weapon, and they are also given a focus. For the Druid and the Wizard, they are attempting to make it clear that the item that they get is just one item that is used for both purposes. So, they used an inelegant and inconsistent solution by giving those classes an Arcane Focus (Quarterstaff).
The best way to fix all of this via errata is to just remove the silly parentheticals.
Then, edit the paragraph just above the table, which currently reads:
"An Arcane Focus takes one of the forms in the Arcane Focuses table and is bejeweled or carved to channel arcane magic. A Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard can use such an item as a Spellcasting Focus."
and modify that to read something like this:
"An Arcane Focus takes one of the forms in the Arcane Focuses table and is bejeweled or carved to channel arcane magic. A Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard can use such an item as a Spellcasting Focus. An Arcane Focus that takes the form of a Staff can also be used as a Quarterstaff." . . . with the words "Staff" and "Quarterstaff" written in brown in the online version and hyperlinked back to their item descriptions.
Then, lastly, edit the starting equipment entries for the Druid and the Wizard from "Arcane Focus (Quarterstaff)" to the more consistent "Arcane Focus (Staff)".
However, one drawback of doing it this way is that an inexperienced group might look at this starting equipment and think that the Wizard needs to immediately find a shop and buy a weapon if he wants to carry a weapon -- which is what the authors are trying to avoid.
Not to nitpick everything, but druids and wizards both also get weapons other than their quarterstaffs. Both get at least one d4 weapon, just like the warlock. Both also get enough cash to buy any simple weapon they might want except for a short bow or crossbow. You are also told you may spend any money you start with immediately on equipment when you create your character.
So just be sure to pick up a quarterstaff that was once a starting equipment item of a wizard or a druid and you can use it as a focus.
No, if you pick up a quarterstaff, no matter who it used to belong to, it’s still just a quarterstaff. If you want something that is functionally identical to a quarterstaff in melee, it can also be used as a spellcasting focus, you have to get one of the more expensive options, either a staff or a wooden staff. One of those will work as a a spellcasting focus, but can also be used as a boppity stick to hit people on the noggin too.
Think of it like a car. The quarterstaff is a base model, it safely and reliably gets one from point A to B, without having to walk or be exposed to the elements. If one wants the bells and whistles such as a moonroof, navigation system, and heated seats, one needs to spring for one of the more high end models. Only in this case “safely and reliably get[ting] one from point A to B”is analogous to using it as a boppity stick, while “the bells and whistles such as a moonroof, navigation system, and heated seats” is an analogy for spellcasting focal capability. Or, if cars aren’t your thing think of it like stereos, TVs, computers, or suits (off the rack vs tailored), or anything else where there’s a basic version and a premium version. Or like a DDB sub, the quarterstaff is like a Hero Tier sub, while the staff & wooden staff are like the Master Tier. One simply offers everything the other does plus more that he other doesn’t include.
No. The quarterstaff that is in the starting equipment of a druid or wizard is expressly a focus. It has heated seats even though it is the L not the LE.
Or we could just let this entire pointless debate that has somehow limped on for four pages die. 99% of us can recognize the obvious intent behind the wording in the PHB, and the 1% who feel otherwise clearly have decided this is a hill they’re going to die on, so is there anything new left to say?
No. The quarterstaff that is in the starting equipment of a druid or wizard is expressly a focus. It has heated seats even though it is the L not the LE.
The disagreement is because that isn’t how any of the other casting classes work. Try to look for the pattern when you exclude wizard and Druid, then compare back.
Nah all classes that have spellcasting on their base class work the same, they all get some sort of weapon and they all get a spellcasting focus. The only difference is that the specific type of focus that Wizards and Druids get at character creation has an additional usage as weapon too. But having a big wooden stick that you both use to cast spells with and hit people over the head with is quite a common trope in fantasy and it has been around in D&D rules for a while so I don't see why anyone should be surprised by it really. And while Wizards and Druids are the only ones who get it from the start both Sorcerers, Warlocks, AT Rogues and EK Fighters can all use a Staff if they buy one and Rangers can use a Wooden staff if they get one so it's not like there is any power issues either (and I would allow any Warlock or Sorcerer to switch the version they get from the start for a Staff if they so like).
Or we could just let this entire pointless debate that has somehow limped on for four pages die. 99% of us can recognize the obvious intent behind the wording in the PHB, and the 1% who feel otherwise clearly have decided this is a hill they’re going to die on, so is there anything new left to say?
It's 100 percent. I haven't seen anyone disagree on the RAI. The debate is between folks who seem to think the current wording is acceptable/clear enough for the RAW to match the RAI, and those who don't
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not to nitpick everything, but druids and wizards both also get weapons other than their quarterstaffs. Both get at least one d4 weapon, just like the warlock. Both also get enough cash to buy any simple weapon they might want except for a short bow or crossbow. You are also told you may spend any money you start with immediately on equipment when you create your character.
Doh. You're right. I'm not sure what I was looking at there. Disregard that point.
Or we could just let this entire pointless debate that has somehow limped on for four pages die. 99% of us can recognize the obvious intent behind the wording in the PHB, and the 1% who feel otherwise clearly have decided this is a hill they’re going to die on, so is there anything new left to say?
To be fair, I read it the other way at first as well and it wasn't until reading through this thread and then going back and looking at all of the various portions of the rules related to this that I've landed at the consensus answer. It's definitely very far from obvious -- it's actually contradictory and inconsistent to the point where the DM simply has to make a ruling one way or the other because the actual rules have it both ways.
The use of the parenthetical to attempt to convey this rule is completely atrocious. They absolutely should not have done it that way. And if it absolutely had to be done that way, it should have been about 17 words instead of 3. They should also be more careful about listing out exactly which items are given to characters as starting equipment. If this issue is never addressed via errata, we will see threads about this exact issue pop up over and over again for many years to come.
The 2024 Dungeon Master Guide entry for Staffs specify that a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus unless noted otherwise.
Staffs
Items in the Staff category vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. A staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds and serves well as a walking stick or cane.
Unless its description notes otherwise, a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
That does not really clarify things as the Arcane focus staff is called a staff which we already know can be used as a quarterstaff.
The quarterstaff is not listed as just a Staff though, so it does not clarify is a quarterstaff can be used as a staff(arcane focus)
No, it’s very simple- the item listed on the weapons table as a quarterstaff that costs 2 sp has no language that says it functions as an arcane focus anywhere, so it doesn’t. The item listed on the arcane focus table as a staff for 5 gp specifically has a note both in the PHB and now the DMG establishing that it also functions as the 2 sp item on the weapons table, but that is a one-way interaction in the rules. You can attempt to play the what about game or otherwise split semantic hairs, but it is patently obvious from all explicit rules and implicit context that while the 5 gp item may function as the 2 sp one, the 2 sp one may not function as the 5 gp one, and frankly any further arguments seem very likely to be in bad faith and I probably won’t respond to them.
That does not really clarify things as the Arcane focus staff is called a staff which we already know can be used as a quarterstaff.
The quarterstaff is not listed as just a Staff though, so it does not clarify is a quarterstaff can be used as a staff(arcane focus)
No, it’s very simple- the item listed on the weapons table as a quarterstaff that costs 2 sp has no language that says it functions as an arcane focus anywhere, so it doesn’t. The item listed on the arcane focus table as a staff for 5 gp specifically has a note both in the PHB and now the DMG establishing that it also functions as the 2 sp item on the weapons table, but that is a one-way interaction in the rules. You can attempt to play the what about game or otherwise split semantic hairs, but it is patently obvious from all explicit rules and implicit context that while the 5 gp item may function as the 2 sp one, the 2 sp one may not function as the 5 gp one, and frankly any further arguments seem very likely to be in bad faith and I probably won’t respond to them.
I agree with you, i was pointing out that specific line does not clarify things for those who think otherwise. I feel there is a lot of disingenuous rules reading happening with the 2024 rules. i am not sure the people here are being disingenuous though.
Why? Because of bad writing and poor editing (nothing new for D&D) from JC and pals.
Also the designers expect players and, especially, DM's to not be stupid. The list of starting equipment absolutely should have said "Arcane Focus (Staff)" but that fact that they botched that line doesn't change the fact that the item you are given is primarily an arcane focus, the part in the parenthetical doesn't change the base category of the item. So any argument that you should ignore the list (and rules) for arcane focuses and instead go look in the weapon section doesn't pass the smell test for me. And this is especially true for anyone that has played with the 2014 rules as they also worked in the same way, complete with poorly worded and somewhat confusing rules about it.
Arguing from "anyone that has played with the 2014 rules as they also worked in the same way" despite the differences in the text is putting the cart before the horse. You already decided the result you want and just argue to get there. That isn't helpful.
In fact your statements aren't even internally consistent. You are arguing at the same time that the thing they give you is an arcane focus despite the parenthetical, and yet in the next breath saying the thing they give you "doesn't pass the smell test for [you]" because it is a weapon and using it as a focus would ignore the rules for an arcane focus.
I guess that means you think that the ruleset that they gave us is broken. Sure, and maybe they will change something in errata. But in the meantime our understanding should come from what is written down in the 2024 rules.
If they meant "staff" then saying "arcane focus (quarterstaff)" is the most roundabout and backwards way to do it. It is far simpler to assume the rules as written are saying what is written and not filled with hidden, unintuitive, linguistic trap meanings until given info otherwise. That is to say, a quarterstaff that they give you as part of your starting equipment is in fact a focus.
Sure but if the vendor you buy it from is competent then that staff should be priced at 5G instead of 2S that common quarterstaffs are sold for.
Just for the record, the book is in no way clear about that. That's why this thread exists
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No it isn't broken but yes it should receive an errata. The list of starting equipment for Wizards should read "Arcane Focus (Staff)" and nothing else.
If they then want to rely on us understanding what they mean when the description of the staff says "(also a Quarterstaff)" or if they want to add more clarification about it a different matter.
No it really isn't, it is quite a small and easy mistake to make when their intention is to give you an item that can be used both as a focus and as a quarterstaff. It is annoying that they continually fail at these things
But that's the thing, no one is disagreeing with you here. The item a Wizard (and a Druid) gets from the start is usable as an arcane focus and as a quarterstaff. The thing people disagree with is when you claim that this means that all quarterstaffs can be used as a focus. You seem to refuse to accept that there is a difference between an item named "Quarterstaff" and an item named "Arcane Focus" and I find that really surprising (even when it says "Quarterstaff" in the parenthetical).
The disagreement is because that isn’t how any of the other casting classes work. Try to look for the pattern when you exclude wizard and Druid, then compare back.
The reason for this is because in the case of classes such as the Ranger or the Sorcerer, they are given a weapon, and they are also given a focus. For the Druid and the Wizard, they are attempting to make it clear that the item that they get is just one item that is used for both purposes. So, they used an inelegant and inconsistent solution by giving those classes an Arcane Focus (Quarterstaff).
The best way to fix all of this via errata is to just remove the silly parentheticals.
Then, edit the paragraph just above the table, which currently reads:
"An Arcane Focus takes one of the forms in the Arcane Focuses table and is bejeweled or carved to channel arcane magic. A Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard can use such an item as a Spellcasting Focus."
and modify that to read something like this:
"An Arcane Focus takes one of the forms in the Arcane Focuses table and is bejeweled or carved to channel arcane magic. A Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard can use such an item as a Spellcasting Focus. An Arcane Focus that takes the form of a Staff can also be used as a Quarterstaff." . . . with the words "Staff" and "Quarterstaff" written in brown in the online version and hyperlinked back to their item descriptions.
Then, lastly, edit the starting equipment entries for the Druid and the Wizard from "Arcane Focus (Quarterstaff)" to the more consistent "Arcane Focus (Staff)".
However, one drawback of doing it this way is that an inexperienced group might look at this starting equipment and think that the Wizard needs to immediately find a shop and buy a weapon if he wants to carry a weapon -- which is what the authors are trying to avoid.
Not to nitpick everything, but druids and wizards both also get weapons other than their quarterstaffs. Both get at least one d4 weapon, just like the warlock. Both also get enough cash to buy any simple weapon they might want except for a short bow or crossbow. You are also told you may spend any money you start with immediately on equipment when you create your character.
No, if you pick up a quarterstaff, no matter who it used to belong to, it’s still just a quarterstaff. If you want something that is functionally identical to a quarterstaff in melee, it can also be used as a spellcasting focus, you have to get one of the more expensive options, either a staff or a wooden staff. One of those will work as a a spellcasting focus, but can also be used as a boppity stick to hit people on the noggin too.
Think of it like a car. The quarterstaff is a base model, it safely and reliably gets one from point A to B, without having to walk or be exposed to the elements. If one wants the bells and whistles such as a moonroof, navigation system, and heated seats, one needs to spring for one of the more high end models. Only in this case “safely and reliably get[ting] one from point A to B”is analogous to using it as a boppity stick, while “the bells and whistles such as a moonroof, navigation system, and heated seats” is an analogy for spellcasting focal capability. Or, if cars aren’t your thing think of it like stereos, TVs, computers, or suits (off the rack vs tailored), or anything else where there’s a basic version and a premium version. Or like a DDB sub, the quarterstaff is like a Hero Tier sub, while the staff & wooden staff are like the Master Tier. One simply offers everything the other does plus more that he other doesn’t include.
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No. The quarterstaff that is in the starting equipment of a druid or wizard is expressly a focus. It has heated seats even though it is the L not the LE.
Or we could just let this entire pointless debate that has somehow limped on for four pages die. 99% of us can recognize the obvious intent behind the wording in the PHB, and the 1% who feel otherwise clearly have decided this is a hill they’re going to die on, so is there anything new left to say?
Whatever you say chief.
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Nah all classes that have spellcasting on their base class work the same, they all get some sort of weapon and they all get a spellcasting focus. The only difference is that the specific type of focus that Wizards and Druids get at character creation has an additional usage as weapon too. But having a big wooden stick that you both use to cast spells with and hit people over the head with is quite a common trope in fantasy and it has been around in D&D rules for a while so I don't see why anyone should be surprised by it really.
And while Wizards and Druids are the only ones who get it from the start both Sorcerers, Warlocks, AT Rogues and EK Fighters can all use a Staff if they buy one and Rangers can use a Wooden staff if they get one so it's not like there is any power issues either (and I would allow any Warlock or Sorcerer to switch the version they get from the start for a Staff if they so like).
It's 100 percent. I haven't seen anyone disagree on the RAI. The debate is between folks who seem to think the current wording is acceptable/clear enough for the RAW to match the RAI, and those who don't
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Doh. You're right. I'm not sure what I was looking at there. Disregard that point.
To be fair, I read it the other way at first as well and it wasn't until reading through this thread and then going back and looking at all of the various portions of the rules related to this that I've landed at the consensus answer. It's definitely very far from obvious -- it's actually contradictory and inconsistent to the point where the DM simply has to make a ruling one way or the other because the actual rules have it both ways.
The use of the parenthetical to attempt to convey this rule is completely atrocious. They absolutely should not have done it that way. And if it absolutely had to be done that way, it should have been about 17 words instead of 3. They should also be more careful about listing out exactly which items are given to characters as starting equipment. If this issue is never addressed via errata, we will see threads about this exact issue pop up over and over again for many years to come.
The 2024 Dungeon Master Guide entry for Staffs specify that a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus unless noted otherwise.
That does not really clarify things as the Arcane focus staff is called a staff which we already know can be used as a quarterstaff.
The quarterstaff is not listed as just a Staff though, so it does not clarify is a quarterstaff can be used as a staff(arcane focus)
No, it’s very simple- the item listed on the weapons table as a quarterstaff that costs 2 sp has no language that says it functions as an arcane focus anywhere, so it doesn’t. The item listed on the arcane focus table as a staff for 5 gp specifically has a note both in the PHB and now the DMG establishing that it also functions as the 2 sp item on the weapons table, but that is a one-way interaction in the rules. You can attempt to play the what about game or otherwise split semantic hairs, but it is patently obvious from all explicit rules and implicit context that while the 5 gp item may function as the 2 sp one, the 2 sp one may not function as the 5 gp one, and frankly any further arguments seem very likely to be in bad faith and I probably won’t respond to them.
I agree with you, i was pointing out that specific line does not clarify things for those who think otherwise. I feel there is a lot of disingenuous rules reading happening with the 2024 rules. i am not sure the people here are being disingenuous though.
So now that we have all the rules for weapon, arcane focus and magic staff, unless noted otherwise it can be concluded that:
A nonmagical staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
A magical staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
A nonmagical Quarterstaff can't be used as an Arcane Focus.
A magical Quarterstaff can't be used as an Arcane Focus.