I have one level in Rogue for Athletics & Acrobatics expertise, double my prof bonus for those.
Rules say: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast [...] You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
** Attacking with form that has no special grapple/knockdown **
(1) In say Cave Bear form, I can replace both multiattacks with one grapple. STR is +5 in this form (therefore it's athletics skill is effectively +5?) - To do a grapple, it's a Strength (Athletics) check, as contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) OR Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. They get to choose what they contest with. My ATHLETICS skill is +7. So I roll and my target rolls. They get to use their athletics or acrobatics. Am I forced to use the +5 of the bear STR, or do I get to use my athletics skill in bear form, and roll with a +7?
** Being grappled in wild shape **
(2) If I'm in the same form, my DEX is +0. If I'm grappled, do I choose to roll with the STR+5 (as I can use STR or DEX check to foil the grapple), or do I get now to use my ACROBATICS skill which is +10?
(3) Also, if I AM using my own higher athletics/acrobatics check, in this case as the bear STR is so high, do I recalc my athletics/acrobatics bonus while in this form? As a rogue/druid with -1 STR, my athletics is -1+(2x4 prof bonus) = +7. So do I do the same calculation, but starting with +5STR instead of -1, and overall have an athletics skill of +13?
** Now, all that again in a form which DOES have a type of grapple as standard **
If i'm in Giant Elk form which has +4 to STR - I charge, and my enemy has to succeed a DC14 Strength Saving throw, or be knocked prone. (same sort of saving mechanic applies to me in giant snake etc, only they are grapple/restrains)
(4) Can I augment that based on my ATHLETICS skill of +7 which applies to strength checks?
(5) And if so, can I again recalc while in form, and make that skill +12?
ok, so, first: proficiency is not the +X, it's that you gain the proficiency bonus. your skill bonus in animal form will be:
animal's base (STR/dex) + (if you or the animal is proficient, the relevant proficiency bonus, or the higher if both proficient)
so:
1) cave bear is not proficient in athletics. you use the bear's strength, and add your proficiency bonus for being proficient in athletics. you retain class features, so it will be the doubled figure
2) you use the bear's dex, but add your proficiency because the bear is not proficient in acro. same as above re expertise
3) see 1and 2
4) elk's charge ability is not a grapple action, and is not keyed off math. your abilities do not change the elk's charge probing save. at any rate, they're likely based off their strength base stats, which don't change when you wild shape
it's not super obvious, nor always easy to work out.
As the wildshape ability says:
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
This means that your character retains knowledge of proficiencies.
It also means that you get to use the higher proficiency bonus out of yours or the creature. The problem here is that D&D 5th edition stat blocks don't list the proficiency bonus - it's not directly useful on it's own, so it's included in the calculations for the other stats.
We're now into personal interpretations.
Personally, I think that the correct way to proceed is to recalculate proficiencies using monster ability bonus + proficiency bonus from the character (including expertise if relevant). Then the "use the creature’s bonus instead of yours" is relevant if it has a high skill in something.
It can also be argued though that, for simplicity, the intent is that you should just read your existing skill total and compare to the creature, then take the higher of the two.
Ugh, I was literally coming to post this exact question and have also not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere. I think almost all the class abilities and spells that draw on creatures are a very big hole in 5e. Instead of being 'simple', it's chaotic, convoluted and just a complete mess. From beastmasters to moon druids to summoners, it's all over the damned place.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Done. As an aside, a one level dip into Lock gives Hex, which should give advantage to strength checks, i.e. potentially grapples you make, depending on whether they're favouring acrobatics or athletics to break out, and grapples you're trying to stop or escape from..., that plus 1d6 damage per round each time you hit, and you can move the hex to another mob if the 1st mob dies...
...which should give advantage to strength checks..
Disadvantage on the target I think you mean?
Also, if I were going Moon Druid, I'd want to go all the way to 20 with it. Even if I never get to play it through all those levels, I prefer to make characters based on concepts where I would.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Yup, cheers for correction. Next time I come across something like a croc trying to grab me, I want it to have a harder time grabbing me and holding me down.
I agree. I’m playing a Moon Druid right now and I hope we get to level 20 for the unlimited Wild Shape plus casting spells while in “beast” form. Being able to turn into an Elemental, cast spells while you’re an Elemental, and regenerate all of the damage that you take every round by just changing again will be pretty awesome!
If a creature has a special method for grappling or shoving, you use the DC given, but every creature has the option of using the standard grapple or shove rule in the Player's Handbook if the DM thinks the monster's anatomy would allow it. However that rule relies on the Attack action, so you can't combine it with Multiattack.
Always seems fairly easy to me if you think about it as your mind in a different body. I'd the BODY is responsible use the body's stat. If the mind is responsible use the character skill. Maybe that's a bad way to explain it let me try this with the bear.
An actual bear isn't "proficient" with grapple because it's unskilled, It's just f'ing strong. But it doesn't necessarily have a particular plan or technique to execute it's grapples with. It's just crazy strong. When you wild shape into a bear however it's your mind in the body of a bear. Thus because the player's MIND has knowledge of techniques and body mobility through the athletics skill the player can apply their skillful and knowledgeable proficiency with the bear's badass strength.
I always try to figure out where a skill originates from. Athletics is (STR) for sure, but it's a skill that's more about body training and practice than just brute force. Otherwise it would just be a raw STR check. It's a SKILL something developed with practice. Like perception and persuasion. They're not raw wisdom and charisma, they're trained skills. They require practice to develop. I guess what I'm trying to say is skills are about technique aided by the relevant stat. All the knowledge of climbing in the world won't help you with a 2 Strength score, but it's still knowledge. The technique transfers but the physical stat is the new body's.
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*Bear* with me. (OK, no more puns.)
I have one level in Rogue for Athletics & Acrobatics expertise, double my prof bonus for those.
Rules say: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast [...] You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
** Attacking with form that has no special grapple/knockdown **
(1) In say Cave Bear form, I can replace both multiattacks with one grapple. STR is +5 in this form (therefore it's athletics skill is effectively +5?) - To do a grapple, it's a Strength (Athletics) check, as contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) OR Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. They get to choose what they contest with. My ATHLETICS skill is +7. So I roll and my target rolls. They get to use their athletics or acrobatics. Am I forced to use the +5 of the bear STR, or do I get to use my athletics skill in bear form, and roll with a +7?
** Being grappled in wild shape **
(2) If I'm in the same form, my DEX is +0. If I'm grappled, do I choose to roll with the STR+5 (as I can use STR or DEX check to foil the grapple), or do I get now to use my ACROBATICS skill which is +10?
(3) Also, if I AM using my own higher athletics/acrobatics check, in this case as the bear STR is so high, do I recalc my athletics/acrobatics bonus while in this form? As a rogue/druid with -1 STR, my athletics is -1+(2x4 prof bonus) = +7. So do I do the same calculation, but starting with +5STR instead of -1, and overall have an athletics skill of +13?
** Now, all that again in a form which DOES have a type of grapple as standard **
If i'm in Giant Elk form which has +4 to STR - I charge, and my enemy has to succeed a DC14 Strength Saving throw, or be knocked prone. (same sort of saving mechanic applies to me in giant snake etc, only they are grapple/restrains)
(4) Can I augment that based on my ATHLETICS skill of +7 which applies to strength checks?
(5) And if so, can I again recalc while in form, and make that skill +12?
ok, so, first: proficiency is not the +X, it's that you gain the proficiency bonus. your skill bonus in animal form will be:
animal's base (STR/dex) + (if you or the animal is proficient, the relevant proficiency bonus, or the higher if both proficient)
so:
1) cave bear is not proficient in athletics. you use the bear's strength, and add your proficiency bonus for being proficient in athletics. you retain class features, so it will be the doubled figure
2) you use the bear's dex, but add your proficiency because the bear is not proficient in acro. same as above re expertise
3) see 1and 2
4) elk's charge ability is not a grapple action, and is not keyed off math. your abilities do not change the elk's charge probing save. at any rate, they're likely based off their strength base stats, which don't change when you wild shape
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D&D Beyond FoundersHi there,
it's not super obvious, nor always easy to work out.
As the wildshape ability says:
This means that your character retains knowledge of proficiencies.
It also means that you get to use the higher proficiency bonus out of yours or the creature. The problem here is that D&D 5th edition stat blocks don't list the proficiency bonus - it's not directly useful on it's own, so it's included in the calculations for the other stats.
We're now into personal interpretations.
Personally, I think that the correct way to proceed is to recalculate proficiencies using monster ability bonus + proficiency bonus from the character (including expertise if relevant). Then the "use the creature’s bonus instead of yours" is relevant if it has a high skill in something.
It can also be argued though that, for simplicity, the intent is that you should just read your existing skill total and compare to the creature, then take the higher of the two.
All of the clarifications that I have seen to date have not really answered what you're asking:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
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Cheers guys, thanks for the answers! It's a shame if my my prof bonus doesn't affect Elks grapple/prone action, or the octopuses grapple/restrain one.
And yeah Sage Advice is horribly obtuse so often, it hurts.
Ugh, I was literally coming to post this exact question and have also not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere. I think almost all the class abilities and spells that draw on creatures are a very big hole in 5e. Instead of being 'simple', it's chaotic, convoluted and just a complete mess. From beastmasters to moon druids to summoners, it's all over the damned place.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Retweet and/or like to increase visibility if you want this answered.
https://twitter.com/dropbear8mybaby/status/1077386693446004736
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Done. As an aside, a one level dip into Lock gives Hex, which should give advantage to strength checks, i.e. potentially grapples you make, depending on whether they're favouring acrobatics or athletics to break out, and grapples you're trying to stop or escape from..., that plus 1d6 damage per round each time you hit, and you can move the hex to another mob if the 1st mob dies...
Disadvantage on the target I think you mean?
Also, if I were going Moon Druid, I'd want to go all the way to 20 with it. Even if I never get to play it through all those levels, I prefer to make characters based on concepts where I would.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Yup, cheers for correction. Next time I come across something like a croc trying to grab me, I want it to have a harder time grabbing me and holding me down.
I agree. I’m playing a Moon Druid right now and I hope we get to level 20 for the unlimited Wild Shape plus casting spells while in “beast” form. Being able to turn into an Elemental, cast spells while you’re an Elemental, and regenerate all of the damage that you take every round by just changing again will be pretty awesome!
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Always seems fairly easy to me if you think about it as your mind in a different body. I'd the BODY is responsible use the body's stat. If the mind is responsible use the character skill. Maybe that's a bad way to explain it let me try this with the bear.
An actual bear isn't "proficient" with grapple because it's unskilled, It's just f'ing strong. But it doesn't necessarily have a particular plan or technique to execute it's grapples with. It's just crazy strong. When you wild shape into a bear however it's your mind in the body of a bear. Thus because the player's MIND has knowledge of techniques and body mobility through the athletics skill the player can apply their skillful and knowledgeable proficiency with the bear's badass strength.
I always try to figure out where a skill originates from. Athletics is (STR) for sure, but it's a skill that's more about body training and practice than just brute force. Otherwise it would just be a raw STR check. It's a SKILL something developed with practice. Like perception and persuasion. They're not raw wisdom and charisma, they're trained skills. They require practice to develop. I guess what I'm trying to say is skills are about technique aided by the relevant stat. All the knowledge of climbing in the world won't help you with a 2 Strength score, but it's still knowledge. The technique transfers but the physical stat is the new body's.