The Sage Advice on Action Surge spellcasting contradict the rules though. Jeremy Crawford originally answered correctly on twitter, but then answered the opposite in Sage Advice.
The rules as written:
Bonus Action Spell: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
The Twitter answer
@ghandi39: Can I misty step (bonus), fire bolt (action) and fireball (surge) on same turn? Or need action surge also be a cantrip?
@JeremyECrawford: In that situation, the Action Surge spell would also need to be a cantrip
@JeremyECrawford:The rule on bonus action spells pertains to your whole turn, not to a particular action (PH, 202).
The Sage Advice ruling:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
I think you're misreading the Sage Advice here. Which is par for the course, he loves to write these in as much of a "technically correct" way as possible, presumably to feel clever. To put the emphasis where it belongs:
"Keep in mind that this particular limit is *specific to spells that use a bonus action.* For instance, if you cast a *second* spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it."
What he's saying is, if your two spells are a normal action and an Action Surge, you're fine. That blurb isn't referring to bonus action spells at all. Classic Jeremy.
I don't see any rules problem with Sorcerers casting 2 spells in a turn, if any character with 2 levels of fighter can action surge and theoretically cast 2 spells in a turn using the level 2 fighter ability.
Well, it costs a Sorcerer 2 points to do that, and she has a number of points equal to her level. Action Surge is once per short rest, period. I don't think this is a fair comparison on account of the massive discrepancy between number of uses.
However, the Combining magical effects clause kicks in. In the PHB this example is used; if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spells benefit only once, he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
Using the same methodology, a Sorcerer who casts quickened spell does indeed cast two spells, but the effects of those spells do not combine, instead the most potent effect, such as the highest bonus, from those castings applies.
In the case of Fireball, the spell with the highest damage would override the spell with the lower damage, but only one of the spell effects would apply. Its kinda like rolling advantage but for fireball.
I mean, rule it how you like, but this is flat out false. Here's the relevant quote, from the aforementioned Combining Magical Effects section:
"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap."
Fireball is an instantaneous spell. It has no duration. By the time the second one is starting, the first one has already finished, and dealt its damage. And anyway, even under this weird rule of yours, the Sorcerer could just target two different areas. Or two areas that intersect to create one extra large area. I don't think it would be as much of a limiting factor as you think.
The main thing that I think motivates the "bonus action spell rule" is the simple fact that Sorcerers only get a small number of Metamagic choices, and if you don't have this rule, Quickened Spell is far and away the best one. It's not even close. I don't think it would necessarily put Sorcerers at the absolute top of class power level (though it might), but it would certainly put Sorcerers with Quickened Spell at the absolute top of Sorcerer power level. To the extent where not only should you just give them Quickened Spell automatically to prevent huge build mistakes, but to the extent that they wouldn't end up using their points for anything else. Sorcerer would just be the "two spells per turn" class.
Quickened Spell made a lot more sense when there were full round actions.
The Sage Advice on Action Surge spellcasting contradict the rules though. Jeremy Crawford originally answered correctly on twitter, but then answered the opposite in Sage Advice.
The rules as written:
Bonus Action Spell: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
The Twitter answer
@ghandi39: Can I misty step (bonus), fire bolt (action) and fireball (surge) on same turn? Or need action surge also be a cantrip?
@JeremyECrawford: In that situation, the Action Surge spell would also need to be a cantrip
@JeremyECrawford:The rule on bonus action spells pertains to your whole turn, not to a particular action (PH, 202).
The Sage Advice ruling:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
I think you're misreading the Sage Advice here. Which is par for the course, he loves to write these in as much of a "technically correct" way as possible, presumably to feel clever. To put the emphasis where it belongs:
"Keep in mind that this particular limit is *specific to spells that use a bonus action.* For instance, if you cast a *second* spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it."
What he's saying is, if your two spells are a normal action and an Action Surge, you're fine. That blurb isn't referring to bonus action spells at all. Classic Jeremy.
The problem is that the PHB limit the spell you can cast on your turn in tandem with bonus actions spellcasting, Action Surge or not.
So if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you're on the same turn and you are thus still limited to casting a cantrip with it as per the PHB.
So if someone counterspells my fireball I can use a reaction to counter his counter. But if someone counterspells my shield of faith I'm stuck?
Unfortunatly, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action and one as reaction on the same turn.
Per RAW, sure. But it's an idiotic rule.
It was obviously an intentional decision, for whatever their reasoning was. And it really isn't all that big a deal. Sure we can think of cases like counterspell where it could come into play, but most of the time, your reactions will not involve spells and when they do, most of the time, they will not happen on your turn.
But i much prefer the Sage Advice official ruling, as the PHB is too restrictive. It's just that i would prefer if it aligned with what the PHB says, rather than contradict it.
So if someone counterspells my fireball I can use a reaction to counter his counter. But if someone counterspells my shield of faith I'm stuck?
Unfortunatly, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action and one as reaction on the same turn.
Per RAW, sure. But it's an idiotic rule.
It was obviously an intentional decision, for whatever their reasoning was. And it really isn't all that big a deal. Sure we can think of cases like counterspell where it could come into play, but most of the time, your reactions will not involve spells and when they do, most of the time, they will not happen on your turn.
Right, which is why it's idiotic not to allow it.
When your rule makes edge cases completely counter-intuitive (thus increasing the likelihood you have to stop play to look up/argue about the rules) for no discernible or logical reason, it's a bad rule.
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The Sage Advice on Action Surge spellcasting contradict the rules though. Jeremy Crawford originally answered correctly on twitter, but then answered the opposite in Sage Advice.
The rules as written:
Bonus Action Spell: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
The Twitter answer
@ghandi39: Can I misty step (bonus), fire bolt (action) and fireball (surge) on same turn? Or need action surge also be a cantrip?
@JeremyECrawford: In that situation, the Action Surge spell would also need to be a cantrip
@JeremyECrawford:The rule on bonus action spells pertains to your whole turn, not to a particular action (PH, 202).
The Sage Advice ruling:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
I think you're misreading the Sage Advice here. Which is par for the course, he loves to write these in as much of a "technically correct" way as possible, presumably to feel clever. To put the emphasis where it belongs:
"Keep in mind that this particular limit is *specific to spells that use a bonus action.* For instance, if you cast a *second* spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it."
What he's saying is, if your two spells are a normal action and an Action Surge, you're fine. That blurb isn't referring to bonus action spells at all. Classic Jeremy.
The problem is that the PHB limit the spell you can cast on your turn in tandem with bonus actions spellcasting, Action Surge or not.
So if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you're on the same turn and you are thus still limited to casting a cantrip with it as per the PHB.
And that's the same thing Sage Advice affirms here. Or, rather, it's what it refrains from contradicting. In other words, Sage Advice has, intentionally or not, reframed the question in such a way that answering it doesn't answer it. But it *looks* like it answers it, if you squint. The absolute worst kind of Sage Advice, and the reason I don't read it.
When your rule makes edge cases completely counter-intuitive (thus increasing the likelihood you have to stop play to look up/argue about the rules) for no discernible or logical reason, it's a bad rule.
That's a fair point. My point was that if a rule is unpopular, it is better that it applies in fewer circumstances rather than more circumstances.
Most of that is not relevant because only the highest damage spell would take effect, and never both. Beyond its usage as an alphastrike due to the insane cost of the cast (2 x level spell slots burned + 2 sorcerer points), which I think actually aligns with other character archetypes being able to generate advantage for themselves whether it be from attacking from a hidden position or flanking the enemy or the other variations in the game. I don't think this causes such a massive discrepancy as you are suggesting it might.
When you think about it though, I think it makes sense. Who is really going to care that it was 2 waves of fire that went over them in that 6 second burst instead of one when they are just taking damage and moving onto the next characters turn (other than those people who really-really love describing things) ?
I could probably back this up with some examples, but I'm sure you have gamed enough to realize the balance between burning spell slots against the length of combat that every mage makes, every combat. Since there are also complimentary rules, such as the combining magical effects rule already in the PHB, I see it as more of a 'well why not', rather than a 'thou shall not'.
Again, what you're describing is a house rule. It's very much not how things work, by the book. I just want to make that clear for anybody reading. See post #108.
I think if you rule it that way, you'll likely find that nobody ever uses your "alpha strike" option at all. There's already a cheaper Metamagic for getting consistent damage -- Empowered Spell -- and for pushing saving throws harder -- Heightened Spell. Maybe the flexibility would make it worthwhile, but I doubt it. Though, I do think it's true that those options don't see nearly as much play as the others.
The Sage Advice and PHB don’t contradict each other. What are you guys going on about? Is it this line?
Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
This meant to be read:
”Keep in mind that the restriction on your Action/Reaction Spellcasting only applies when you use a Bonus Action spell. If you cast an Action Spell and then Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with the Action Surge.”
Yes Sage Advice is saying that basically, which contradict PHB saying You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Yes Sage Advice is saying that basically, which contradict PHB saying You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
What, you want it to say "except for up to two cantrips with casting times of 1 action each, provided that you have and use the Action Surge feature to cast them, otherwise only one"?
Edit: The PHB not saying what I just said doesn't make the Sage Advice a contradiction.
The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
Then what's the issue? You claimed that the PHB was restrictive but now you say it isn't. Where is the contradiction? I agree with CoirOfFire, the PHB and the SAC says the same thing, if you see a contradiction it's likely you have misunderstood the SAC.
The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
Then what's the issue? You claimed that the PHB was restrictive but now you say it isn't. Where is the contradiction? I agree with CoirOfFire, the PHB and the SAC says the same thing, if you see a contradiction it's likely you have misunderstood the SAC.
The contradiction is SAC claiming that if you take Action Surge you can cast something other than a cantrip when PHB says You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip .
The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
Then what's the issue? You claimed that the PHB was restrictive but now you say it isn't. Where is the contradiction? I agree with CoirOfFire, the PHB and the SAC says the same thing, if you see a contradiction it's likely you have misunderstood the SAC.
The contradiction is SAC claiming that if you take Action Surge you can cast something other than a cantrip when PHB says You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip .
This isn't a contradiction.
SAC is advising that Action Surge's extra action can be used for spells. It doesn't mean it is immune to any spellcasting rules.
The PHB about not casting anything else but cantrips is only applicable when you have used a bonus action for a spell.
It's not a contradiction, you're just conflating two different things.
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The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
Then what's the issue? You claimed that the PHB was restrictive but now you say it isn't. Where is the contradiction? I agree with CoirOfFire, the PHB and the SAC says the same thing, if you see a contradiction it's likely you have misunderstood the SAC.
The contradiction is SAC claiming that if you take Action Surge you can cast something other than a cantrip when PHB says You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip .
This isn't a contradiction.
SAC is advising that Action Surge's extra action can be used for spells. It doesn't mean it is immune to any spellcasting rules.
The PHB about not casting anything else but cantrips is only applicable when you have used a bonus action for a spell.
It's not a contradiction, you're just conflating two different things.
It is a contradiction, SAC says For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it while the PHB says the contrary.
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn?
There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Does the rule on casting a bonus action spell apply when you take a bonus action granted by a spell?
The rule on casting a spell as a bonus action applies only on the turn you cast the spell. For example, spiritual weapon can be cast as a bonus action, and it lasts for 1 minute. On the turn you cast it, you can’t cast another spell before or after it, unless that spell is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Until spiritual weapon ends, it gives you the option of controlling its spectral weapon as a bonus action. That bonus action does not involve casting a spell, despite the fact that it’s granted by a spell, so you can control the weapon and cast whatever spell you like on the same turn.
The for instance is part of clarifying this limit on spells only applies to casting as a bonus action but not if you're casting a second spell by other methods (as in, you are not using your bonus action), like Action Surge. The implication being you've cast your spell as an Action (since otherwise the clarification would be irrelevant), and use a Action Surge to get another action.
Again, no contradiction, just an error in reading the context clues.
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I think you're misreading the Sage Advice here. Which is par for the course, he loves to write these in as much of a "technically correct" way as possible, presumably to feel clever. To put the emphasis where it belongs:
"Keep in mind that this particular limit is *specific to spells that use a bonus action.* For instance, if you cast a *second* spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it."
What he's saying is, if your two spells are a normal action and an Action Surge, you're fine. That blurb isn't referring to bonus action spells at all. Classic Jeremy.
Well, it costs a Sorcerer 2 points to do that, and she has a number of points equal to her level. Action Surge is once per short rest, period. I don't think this is a fair comparison on account of the massive discrepancy between number of uses.
I mean, rule it how you like, but this is flat out false. Here's the relevant quote, from the aforementioned Combining Magical Effects section:
"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap."
Fireball is an instantaneous spell. It has no duration. By the time the second one is starting, the first one has already finished, and dealt its damage. And anyway, even under this weird rule of yours, the Sorcerer could just target two different areas. Or two areas that intersect to create one extra large area. I don't think it would be as much of a limiting factor as you think.
The main thing that I think motivates the "bonus action spell rule" is the simple fact that Sorcerers only get a small number of Metamagic choices, and if you don't have this rule, Quickened Spell is far and away the best one. It's not even close. I don't think it would necessarily put Sorcerers at the absolute top of class power level (though it might), but it would certainly put Sorcerers with Quickened Spell at the absolute top of Sorcerer power level. To the extent where not only should you just give them Quickened Spell automatically to prevent huge build mistakes, but to the extent that they wouldn't end up using their points for anything else. Sorcerer would just be the "two spells per turn" class.
Quickened Spell made a lot more sense when there were full round actions.
I couldn't agree more.
The problem is that the PHB limit the spell you can cast on your turn in tandem with bonus actions spellcasting, Action Surge or not.
So if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you're on the same turn and you are thus still limited to casting a cantrip with it as per the PHB.
It was obviously an intentional decision, for whatever their reasoning was. And it really isn't all that big a deal. Sure we can think of cases like counterspell where it could come into play, but most of the time, your reactions will not involve spells and when they do, most of the time, they will not happen on your turn.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
But i much prefer the Sage Advice official ruling, as the PHB is too restrictive. It's just that i would prefer if it aligned with what the PHB says, rather than contradict it.
Right, which is why it's idiotic not to allow it.
When your rule makes edge cases completely counter-intuitive (thus increasing the likelihood you have to stop play to look up/argue about the rules) for no discernible or logical reason, it's a bad rule.
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And that's the same thing Sage Advice affirms here. Or, rather, it's what it refrains from contradicting. In other words, Sage Advice has, intentionally or not, reframed the question in such a way that answering it doesn't answer it. But it *looks* like it answers it, if you squint. The absolute worst kind of Sage Advice, and the reason I don't read it.
That's a fair point. My point was that if a rule is unpopular, it is better that it applies in fewer circumstances rather than more circumstances.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Most of that is not relevant because only the highest damage spell would take effect, and never both. Beyond its usage as an alphastrike due to the insane cost of the cast (2 x level spell slots burned + 2 sorcerer points), which I think actually aligns with other character archetypes being able to generate advantage for themselves whether it be from attacking from a hidden position or flanking the enemy or the other variations in the game. I don't think this causes such a massive discrepancy as you are suggesting it might.
When you think about it though, I think it makes sense. Who is really going to care that it was 2 waves of fire that went over them in that 6 second burst instead of one when they are just taking damage and moving onto the next characters turn (other than those people who really-really love describing things) ?
I could probably back this up with some examples, but I'm sure you have gamed enough to realize the balance between burning spell slots against the length of combat that every mage makes, every combat. Since there are also complimentary rules, such as the combining magical effects rule already in the PHB, I see it as more of a 'well why not', rather than a 'thou shall not'.
Again, what you're describing is a house rule. It's very much not how things work, by the book. I just want to make that clear for anybody reading. See post #108.
I think if you rule it that way, you'll likely find that nobody ever uses your "alpha strike" option at all. There's already a cheaper Metamagic for getting consistent damage -- Empowered Spell -- and for pushing saving throws harder -- Heightened Spell. Maybe the flexibility would make it worthwhile, but I doubt it. Though, I do think it's true that those options don't see nearly as much play as the others.
The Sage Advice and PHB don’t contradict each other. What are you guys going on about? Is it this line?
Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
This meant to be read:
”Keep in mind that the restriction on your Action/Reaction Spellcasting only applies when you use a Bonus Action spell. If you cast an Action Spell and then Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with the Action Surge.”
Yes Sage Advice is saying that basically, which contradict PHB saying You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
What, you want it to say "except for up to two cantrips with casting times of 1 action each, provided that you have and use the Action Surge feature to cast them, otherwise only one"?
Edit: The PHB not saying what I just said doesn't make the Sage Advice a contradiction.
The PHB doesn't need to say that, both the PHB and XGtE let you cast as many cantrip as you possibly can along with bonus action spell by saying you can't cast, except ...
Then what's the issue? You claimed that the PHB was restrictive but now you say it isn't. Where is the contradiction? I agree with CoirOfFire, the PHB and the SAC says the same thing, if you see a contradiction it's likely you have misunderstood the SAC.
The contradiction is SAC claiming that if you take Action Surge you can cast something other than a cantrip when PHB says You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip .
This isn't a contradiction.
SAC is advising that Action Surge's extra action can be used for spells. It doesn't mean it is immune to any spellcasting rules.
The PHB about not casting anything else but cantrips is only applicable when you have used a bonus action for a spell.
It's not a contradiction, you're just conflating two different things.
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It is a contradiction, SAC says For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it while the PHB says the contrary.
Context is key here.
The for instance is part of clarifying this limit on spells only applies to casting as a bonus action but not if you're casting a second spell by other methods (as in, you are not using your bonus action), like Action Surge. The implication being you've cast your spell as an Action (since otherwise the clarification would be irrelevant), and use a Action Surge to get another action.
Again, no contradiction, just an error in reading the context clues.
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